Jane Austen discussion
This topic is about
Emma
Austen on Film
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Yet Another Emma and a Clueless Remake
she looks like Emma but I doubt they can compete with BBC
Am I the only one who wishes they’d make a proper adaptation of Mansfield Park or Persuasion instead?
Mansfield Park is truly going begging for a proper adaptation. :)I have only few issues with the Persuasion-adaptations, but the MP ones are truly appalling.
There is a proper adaptation of Persuasion. It stars Ciarán Hindsand Amanda Root. Aside from the parade and the kiss, it's basically faithful to the novel. A proper adaptation of Mansfield Park won't appeal to a modern day audience but it would be nice if the BBC would go back to bonnet dramas and do a good one.
For me the only proper adaptation of Persuasion is the 1972 version with Ann Firbank.Mansfield Park could definitely do with a new adaptation but they'd probably make Mary the main character.
bbc 1986 with sylvestra Le Touzell is excellent and true to the book all the actors really learned their parts (as opposed to so many films where they change the characterization )I also think 1972 Persuasion is good( except Anns hairdo which adds unnecessary comic effect reminds me of unnecessary Maidenform bras in P&P 1995)
Mrs wrote: "she looks like Emma but I doubt they can compete with BBC"Really? I think ITV one (1996) is much better.
This new Emma adaptation, I don’t think they are brave enough to make it SIMPLE. I am sure they will poor in modern filming techniques. I really like Ray Marshall’s Catherine Cookson dramatizations, because – he really made everything SIMPLE. And not unnecessary colorful.
QNPoohBear wrote: "There is a proper adaptation of Persuasion. It stars Ciarán Hindsand Amanda Root. Aside from the parade and the kiss, it's basically faithful to the novel. A proper adaptation of Mansfield Park wo..."
I like the Amanda Root adaptation the best of all the existing ones, but it is quite old now and so if any Austen needs to be remade it seems more appropriate to do that than, say, Emma, which was done quite thoroughly and well in 2009, IMO.
Mrs wrote: "bbc 1986 with sylvestra Le Touzell is excellent and true to the book all the actors really learned their parts (as opposed to so many films where they change the characterization )I also think 1972..."I agree that the 86 MP is the best MP adaptation out there, but it is old and quite theatrical. I think it can be improved upon, and, again, there's more room to do that here than with P&P or Emma, which have been remade more recently.
I really need another P&P adaption. 15 to 20 parts, with every little detail of the book filmed. Because as much as I like thw 1995 version, it lacks, among other things, Mr Darcy and Miss Bingley walking in the shrubbery when met by Lizzy and Mrs Hurst, Mr Darcy 'accidentally' meeting Lizzy on her walks in Rosings, the dinner at the Bennet's before Jane is engaged, the second walk after Darcy and Lizzy are engaged, Lizzy telling her mother of the engagement. I want to see those in a proper adaption. They are partly available in the 1983 version but as much as I am okay with it, I want a proper film version sort of adaption. As to the other books: I want them all to be filmed properly again. I like both the 1972 and the 1995 versions of Persuasion (the later one, 2006?, is just bah humbug!) but they both lack a certain somethingfor them to be perfect.
The only MP adaption worth talking about is the 1980s one, later versions are just scarily bad imho.
I like the NA adaption from a few years ago, not the old 1980s one. But even that could be more true to the book regarding its end.
And with the other two books, S&S and Emma, I find something (or more) lacking in every adaption I've seen. Especially Emma has no adaption that I really like.
II think that the moral of the post is that it is impossible to make a really good film based on a really good book ( so dont even expect it then you wont be disappointed)
Mrs wrote: "II think that the moral of the post is that it is impossible to make a really good film based on a really good book ( so dont even expect it then you wont be disappointed)"You're right, of course. Still, I wish there was a perfect version of each novel. ;)
Isabel wrote: "I really need another P&P adaption. 15 to 20 parts, with every little detail of the book filmed. Because as much as I like thw 1995 version, it lacks, among other things, Mr Darcy and Miss Bingley ..."Oh, Isabel, I so agree with all of that!
Another tiny bit I missed in the 1995 P & P was Miss Bingley admiring Darcy's handwriting! The 2005 film, in my opinion, was just wrong.
As you say, all the Persuasion versions are decent, but all miss that certain something that the book has.
I too hated all the MP versions I've seen. Can't decide which is worse - the 2007 one with a hopelessly miscast Billie Piper romping around in a most un-Fannylike manner or the 1999 one with its rather fevered imagination.
I did like the NA with Felicity Jones. The casting was inspired and I thought it was perhaps as close to the original as is possible. And the 2009 Emma is pretty good too.
Oddly enough, I actually like the adaptations which use JA's books as inspiration and come up with an original take on them, like 'Clueless'. I even enjoyed 'P & P and Zombies' (the movie) and would love to watch the Brazilian telenovela that I read about today!
(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-...)
I think these pay a more sincere tribute to JA than those versions which purport to be faithful adaptations but in fact miss the novel's subtleties altogether, or push their own agenda disguised as an Austen novel.
As the author of a Jane Austen YA novel inspired by Pride and Prejudice myself, it's irritating to me that they would reboot a quintessentially 90s film like Clueless, rather than look for a new novel to adapt. Or just go back to Emma, and do something totally different.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JM7WJ58
The Mansfield Park done by the BBC in the early 80s wasn't perfect, but at least it was faithful to the original novel. And Anna Massey was a perfect Mrs. Norris (also a great Mrs. Danvers in the BBC Rebecca that no one has ever seen from the 70s)!
Mrs wrote: "bbc 1986 with sylvestra Le Touzell is excellent and true to the book all the actors really learned their parts (as opposed to so many films where they change the characterization )I also think 1972..."Agreed!
Mary wrote: "As the author of a Jane Austen YA novel inspired by Pride and Prejudice myself, it's irritating to me that they would reboot a quintessentially 90s film like Clueless, rather than look for a new no..."Yes, she is the best Mrs. Norris, hands-down!
Agreed with the above that Sylvestra Le Touzell is the perfect Fanny. She really makes the character seem genuinely complex, especially in regard for Fanny's love of nature. Lady Bertram is also pitch-perfect, and I like the boys, too, especially Tom. The problem with the version from the 80s is that the Crawfords just aren't sexy and powerful enough to justify all the chaos they cause, And the script could be a bit more crisp and dramatic--it's basically the book, acted out by very good actors. Which is certainly better than what came after, though!
To me the Crawfords seem very attractive....
The trailer for the new adaptation of Emma is airing with Little Women. It looks really funny. I had already seen the trailer online but it was fun to see it on the big screen. Even if it's a poor adaptation, I'm hoping it's a success so we see more Regency romantic comedies on the big screen.https://www.willowandthatch.com/emma-...
Has anyone seen the new Emma film yet? I think it's opening this weekend in the UK at any rate. I think it looks promising from the trailer, but Knightly looks a bit young! He's supposed to be old enough to have seen Emma grow up, so he must be at least fifteen years older than her. That said, of course, it's unlikely any actress playing Emma would actually be her age, ie, twenty-one, so that 'warps' the age difference in the actors a bit I guess.
I think the dastardly Frank is being played by the equally dastardly Anatole in the recent War and Peace???
I'm afraid Bill Nighy is probably miscast, mainly because whatever role he plays it's always just Bill Nighy.....he's very marmite to my mind, OK in some roles (where being Bill Nighy is right!) but not in others, and I suspect Mr Woodhouse is NOT Bill Nighy! (The best Mr W to my mind was Michael Gambon in the Romola xxx TV version - for the first time he seemed truly pitiable, nor just immensely irritating, his fears for Emma, and everyone else, grounded in the tragedy of losing his wife)
Not sure how Miranda xxxx (sorry, can't remember her surname either!) is going to play as Miss Bates - she'll get the 'sad genteel' bit OK I would think, but is far too 'strapping' physically.
Harriet Smith looks OK - she has to be 'crushable' by Emma, that's essential.
Emma herself looks irritating enough to be plausible (my least favourite Austen heroine.)
I just saw Emma. today and without spoiling it for anybody, I didn’t really see the point in it. It doesn’t add or improve on the source material (IMO). Knightley is too young, personally I find him v unattractive and I’m not keen on how he is portrayed in this.
Beth, you’re spot on about Nighy and Gambon was certainly the best Mr W.
YMMV but unfortunately the actress who plays Emma has a face that is so weird, I found it incredibly distracting. Ok in terms of acting skills but Romola Garai was a much much better choice.
It plays up the romance aspects of the story quite a bit, but we get much less Frank/Jane Fairfax.
Stylistically it’s pleasant to look at but it feels sooo style over substance.
Personally, I’d give it 2.5/5.
It doesn't open for another week here in the U.S. Lucky you to have seen it already. The trailer looked funny and probably not all that faithful to the social satire and ironic tone of the text but funny anyway. We could use a good rom com especially one in period dressing. If Emma does well, I hope they will bring out more Regency romantic comedies. Georgette Heyer Regency romantic comedies in particular. Still waiting for The Grand Sophy. I'm hoping Emma will give Sophy a boost to the finish line.
Emilia, thank you for the heads up. I'll probably go and see it, if only to be disappointed - it's a bit like productions of Shakespeare, you go and see them even if you don't like them!!! (Hmm, that said, not sure I'd go and see the role-reversal one of Taming of the Shrew, where we have a Petruchia bullying er Kevin? (or whatever Katerina is called in male form!).Speaking of the Romola Garai one (thank you for the surname!), I flicked the telly on today and lo and behold, it's being shown on a rerun channel, so I've recorded it. The bit I watched reminded me of how good it is. It was the Christmas party at the Westons which ends with the excruciating marriage proposal to Emma by Mr Elton (I skipped that bit - just too too ghastly!). I do like Mr K in it - he's lively and older but not too old, and you can see the 'spark' between him and Emma.
I think Tamsin Greig as Miss Bates plays her too low-key - she needs to rabbit-on and be incredibly irritating, even if pitiable.
Emilia, what did you think of Miranda Hart (that's her surname I think) as Miss Bates in the new film version?
Miranda Hart is very good and her Mrs B is suitably pathetic and irritating/pitiable :)
That sounds promising! Pathetic/pitiable yet irritating - sounds spot on! I'm looking forward to seeing the film.The other key role to get right is that of Mrs Elton - ('caro sposo'!). In one version I saw (Gwyneth Paltrow perhaps??) it was played by Juliet Stevenson, who is a very 'powerful' actress - but she was totally hopeless as Mrs E!! (Mr E was Alec Cumming, and he was slimily excellent!!!)
I think I remember an ancient TV version with a very good Mrs E, and I think it must be the 1972 one, now I look it up, and it was Fiona Walker?? Confusingly, I keep thinking it was Anna Massey, who was so superb as the dreadful Aunt Norris in the outstanding Sylvestra Le Touzel version of Mansfield Park.
I do think the toughest role to play in Emma is actually poor Jane Fairfax, as she has to spend the entire series being 'repressed'.....she can't tell or display the truth and has to suppress everything about herself (except, perhaps, her heartfelt diatribe about governnessing!). It's always been questionable why she accepts Frank (whose very name is a lie!), but I suspect it is a mix of both 'prudence' (as in, financial prudence - shades of Aunt Gardiner's famous 'where does prudence end and avarice begin' warning to Lizzie Bennet in P and P), and perhaps being charmed by his charm...sort of 'swept away' by him falling for her??
It would be nice to think that once finally married, Frank will 'see Miss and Mrs Bates right', and move them into a nice house, and make sure they want for nothing for the rest of their lives.
I appreciate that it's crucial for Emma's painful self-education that Frank Crawford leads her on so merrily, and that of course it is his throwing dust in the suspicious eyes of his aunt, who would NOT approve of his marrying penniless Jane Fairfax but who could not object to handsome, clever and rich Emma Woodhouse (!), but at the same time I think he could have simply appeared 'heart free' to his aunt, and she would still have not cut him out of her will.
Thinking about it, he is a version of Willoughby, isn't he, except that he is a Willoughby that plays his cards right, and trails a false heiress to deceive his rich aunt, and then the moment the latter is dead, rushes off to claim his poor but true love! (That said, because Mr Weston his father had prospered, he was never going to be as penniless as Willoughby even if his Aunt Churchill hadn't died in time.)
Frank's a bit of a Henry Crawford as well (sorry, not Frank Crawford at all!!!!) - charming but unsound morals (obviously not nearly as bad as HC who ruins Maria, an utter cad and bounder). Maybe, in his defence, he thinks he can't do Emma any harm - except humiliate her perhaps, but she is sufficiently handsome clever and rich to bounce back from that anyway. He probably genuinely enjoys her witty company too - he just was not 'free' to enjoy it, and that is why he is morally suspect.
A rundown of the key differences between page and screenhttps://a.msn.com/r/2/BB10djnE?m=en-u...
The main things I object to
(view spoiler)
also (view spoiler)
I'm also not crazy about the (view spoiler)
That sounds awful
Emma sounds better than Sanditon at any rate. I can live with some of the changes. It has to appeal to an audience that's never read the books and won't ever read the books. I want it to do well so we get more literature on the big screen. The same reason I went to see Little Women even though I was sure I'd hate it. (I didn't hate it but I didn't love it).
Oh Emma (2020) is heaps better than Sanditon. It’s not terrible at all just not great, that’s all. I still wish they’d chosen to re-make Mansfield Park or Persuasion. Especially the latter, because it’s a shorter story, could fit all its plot into a movie.
I tend to agree that any remake is better than no remake, for the same reason as QNPB, because if it helps encourage a new generation to read Austen, that's great. I'm probably a bit hypocritical in that some 'updates' or 'errors' I don't mind too much, but others really jar! (I couldn't bear in the Keira Knightley - gosh, just spotted her surname, weird! - version of P and P, the director had so little understanding of the English class system that he thought having pigs running around loose was 'realisatic'. Er, no. End of.) (But then I was prejudiced against that version from the off as thought KK really irritating)(plus the appalling miscasting of Donald Sutherland....and even DJD was miscast as Lady C)
It will be interesting too see whether the 'updates' that you warn us about put my back up or not!
(The trailer's 'hilarious joke' (not!) about 'Mother you simply MUST try the tart' by poor Miss Bates is not a good omen, alas, but who knows, perhaps in context it is less stupid.)
I definitely agree that the very rude cartoonists of the day certainly did have a 'thing' about bottoms, and indeed, other scatological bodily functions!!!!
I'd definitely like to see a new Persuasion, but so much will depend on the casting. My fave so far is definitely the Amanda Root/Ciaran Hinds version, though CH's appallingly messy hair throughout really irritated me! Get a comb, man! I thought the actress playing the insufferably irritating Mary Elliot was beyond brilliant.
Not sure about MP - apart from the old Sylvestra Le Touzel version for TV decades ago, all the adaptations since have been dreadful. It's a difficult one too translate to screen in the first place, plus Fanny is too 'good but dull' to 'show'....we need to see inside her head as the novel allows to have any understanding or sympathy.
I know what you mean about Fanny, and I hear this said a lot, but then I remember the 2008 BBC adaptation of Little Dorrit, which was really great, and I have to say that I don’t think it’s impossible to make a fun, appealing adaptation with a meek but “good” heroine. The novel is full of intrigue and sex and deception and greed, all the stuff that makes for great TV, and Fanny can be such a breath of fresh air in the midst of all this (the way Little Dorrit is). I just think that the people who have so far approached the making of an adaptation have all started from the assumption that Jane Austen made a mistake by creating Fanny and trying to spice things up or replace her with an Elizabeth Bennet clone, thereby missing the genius of the original. I agree the Sylvestra adaptation is the best one—and the only one I re-watch—of them all. It’s no accident that it’s the one that’s closest to the original.
thank you all for saving me the bother of watching these adaptions I watch the BBC TV films from the 1970s and 1980s and P&P with J Ehle however I did throw out The NA from the boxed set Does anyone know of a decent 4hr production?
The Amanda Root/Ciaran Hinds version of Persuasion is THE Persuasion and I won't acknowledge a remake but we have yet to see a decent Mansfield Park. I liked Northanger Abbey with Felicity Jones and J.J. Feild but I understand the UK edition has some scenes that were omitted for an American audience. They're included on the British import DVD and I didn't think they added anything to the story.There's a screening of Emma tomorrow night in Boston, Massachusetts but I can't go. It's too far to go at night and come back. (Yes I'm a New Englander, an hour is far away!) I got a nice goody bag yesterday though at Jane Austen in Boston's book club meeting. Anyone in the U.S. want a paper Emma bookmark (movie poster)? Send me a private message.
QNPoohBear wrote: "The Amanda Root/Ciaran Hinds version of Persuasion is THE Persuasion and I won't acknowledge a remake but we have yet to see a decent Mansfield Park. I liked Northanger Abbey with Felicity Jones an..."Not for me, the Ann Firbank/Bryan Marshall version of Persuasion is THE Persuasion ;)
I do agree that Northanger Abbey with Felicity Jones and J.J. Feild is the best version of NA though, the 80's version was weirdly vulgar.
For me it's Mansfield Park that needs a remake, but not if they're going to make it like Sanditon.
I am a fan of sylvestra Le Touzel but thanks for sending me something to try for NA I hope it is not jumbled into a n hour and a half(I am not in the US and Boston seems fascinating for a literature lover )
The Jane Austen Centre posted a link to a review from The Guardian. That also linked me to some interviews in The Advocate, a LGBTQ publication. This version of Emma sounds like it's geared towards millennials and younger. It doesn't sound much like the Jane Austen we know and love but it sounds entertaining and still in the neighborhood of Regency fiction, unlike Sanditon.
QNPoohBear wrote: "This version of Emma sounds like it's geared towards millennials and younger."Meh... as a millennial myself, I found it wanting. To me it seemed more like an attempt to make it sexy, but, in all honesty, it was unappetising. The actor who plays Mr Knightley, though I really enjoyed his portrayal of William Dobbin in Vanity Fair, is too young, not nearly handsome enough to make me actually interested in seeing his naked rear end, and his chemistry with Emma is frantic and romantic and sexy almost from the start, which is not at all like the original, and which honestly put me off. In that sense I think maybe it was actually aimed at people who either don't know the original at all, or know it only vaguely, or loved Clueless but don't fancy reading an old book, so will go and see this instead.
QNPoohBear wrote: "It doesn't sound much like the Jane Austen we know"
Yes, that's true. I guess all adaptations have to leave stuff out and include other things, to tell a coherent story. This one made choices which I found bizarre, personally. But I'll re-watch when it inevitably lands on Netflix and, knowing now what to expect, I'd be willing to re-assess.
QNPoohBear wrote: "but it sounds entertaining and still in the neighborhood of Regency fiction, unlike Sanditon."
While I do think everybody here should see it and make up their own mind, and while I agree it is better than Sanditon (IMHO an unmitigated disaster), but honestly... I was kind of bored. At some point the movie just completely lost and tired me. But again, I'd re-watch it to see if, knowing what to expect, I'll be able to focus more on the good parts and not on the parts that bewildered me.
Does it strike anyone else that there seems to be a vogue at the moment for casting an actor/actress who has appeared in one historical role, into another similar one! We've seen the same actor cast as the dastardly Anatole in the recent TV War and Peace, now cast as (almost as dastardly!)Frank Churchill in the new movie Emma.
We've seen Prince Andrei from the same TV War and Peace reappear as well Meg's John Brooke in the new Little Women
We've also seen Lilly James who was the ingénue Lady Rose in Downton Abbey morph into the ingénue Natasha in W and P
We also saw the doomed Rawdon Crawley reappear as the Anglo-Indian John Beecham in Beecham House (the East India Company saga which was I think sadly underestimated alas)
And now Emilia mentions that Mr Knightley in the new Emma was also dear old Dobbin in Vanity Fair! (Which I hadn't spotted at all!)
Sometimes the historical period is so close the disparate characters really start to blur as the costumes all look pretty identical!
Has anyone else spotted any more 'sideways casting' I wonder??
Emilia writes: "I just think that the people who have so far approached the making of an adaptation have all started from the assumption that Jane Austen made a mistake by creating Fanny and trying to spice things up or replace her with an Elizabeth Bennet clone, thereby missing the genius of the original. "This is exactly the problem! I think it's because most TV producers and directors (and probably actors too!) are at heart extroverts themselves, and therefore simply cannot comprehend 'The Power of Quiet' (as the recent pro-introvert book calls it!). To extroverts, Fanny is just a dead bore, end of (who would want Fanny at a party? Total loss!), so they just don't get her. Instead, of course, they want Mary Crawford to be the heroine (she's great a parties!), completely missing that MC is fundamentally 'immoral' (or at the least 'amoral'), and that she is a 'damned soul' for that reason, who cannot be redeemed, not even by the saintly Edmund (!).
To me, the most chilling thing about Mary, proving her 'damned' status, is when Edmund recounts to Fanny that she casually said to him that it was a shame his brother Tom hadn't died of his Caribbean fever, as 'Sir Edmund Bertram' sounded just as well as 'Sir Tom'....it really is a chilling comment to make, that she wished a harmless young man dead so SHE could be 'Lady Bertram' if she married Edmund. She's also far too lenient of Henry's ruin of stupid, selfish Maria.
It would be interesting maybe to see if a sequel to MP could be shaped around 'What happens to Mary Crawford?' In a way, she's a sort of forerunner perhaps of Becky Sharp (though BS had more excuse for her behaviour, as she was poor!)
Booo Emma's release has been pushed back a week here in this corner of the U.S.!
Mod
I know! It doesn't open nationwide until this weekend, but I can't wait to see it!
Better see it ASAP before they close the cinemas re C.virus!!!!! (I haven't seen it yet her in the UK either - I'm dreadful with films, I hang around so long that by the time I finally want to book they've disappeared!) (However, they do appear on the telly here fairly soon thereafter, which is good. Hopefully I can see the Downton Abbey film on TV eventually since I missed it in the cinemas)(Speaking of DA, here in the UK the TV station is advertising the Julian Fellowe's novel, Belgravia, which seems to be another lavish costume drama - looking forward to it!)
Mod
Here's my tweet review: https://twitter.com/MovieMaiden/statu...
And my Letterboxd review: https://letterboxd.com/themoviemaiden...
4 1/2 diamonds out of 5 for me! I thought the cast was wonderful, and I was iffy about some of them going in, and I LOVED the production values.
I may go Monday afternoon to see EMMA. I skipped the sneak preview the other night. Glad some Janeites have enjoyed it.
I saw Emma yesterday. It was a bit tedious - it’s as if they wrote the script with the assumption that people already know the plot and story, so they didn’t bother to tell it. My husband didn’t know the plot, so he couldn’t follow it. A few quick observations:* Mr. Knightly was a mis-cast character. Too young and immature. They try to show his passion, but it falls short when he falls on the floor like a little boy in a tantrum. The actor doesn’t seem to really understand his character.
* What’s with the bloody nose? Was it an attempt at humor? It fell flat and ruined the scene. Designed to take you by surprise? For what?
* This Emma was unlikable. She treats Miss Bates with contempt throughout. You never see the charm that Gwyneth Paltrow portrayed in spite of her character’s foibles. We know her heart is always in the right place, but this Emma is a snob.
The sets and the clothing are wonderful. That’s about it. I wouldn’t bother to watch this again.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp...