Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion

Excerpt from The Orphan Conspiracies: 29 Conspiracy Theories from The Orphan Trilogy:

Most people old enough remember exactly where they were when they heard the news that John Lennon was shot dead in New York City on December 8, 1980. The murderer was Mark David Chapman – yet another lone gunman who stood glassy-eyed at the crime scene waiting for the police to arrive. A witness to the shooting asked him if he was aware what he’d just done. “I just shot John Lennon,” Chapman calmly replied.

In the court case that followed, Chapman’s defence team included psychiatrist Dr. Bernard Diamond. Recognize that name? That’s right, he’s the very same psychiatrist who assessed Sirhan Sirhan’s mental state and, as per his assessment of RFK’s assassin, Dr. Diamond stated Chapman was completely insane. Little mention was made of the fact that Chapman was a former World Vision employee who worked as a children’s counsellor in refugee camps in Asia and the Middle East.

Author Fenton Bresler put forward the theory in his book Who Killed John Lennon? that while Chapman was working in Beirut he fell into the orbit of CIA agents who drugged and brainwashed him as part of the ongoing MK-Ultra program.

What is known is shortly after beginning his charity work in Beirut, Chapman began to exhibit mental illness and was hospitalized as a result. Who he associated with from that point on is not known.

Assuming Chapman was yet another Manchurian Candidate and Lennon wasn’t killed randomly, then who on earth would have wanted to kill the peace-loving singer?

Most conspiracy theorists and many researchers point the finger at the US Government for singer-songwriter Lennon was a known threat to the political order of that time. This threat was primarily due to two reasons: his fearless opinions that he gave freely to the press and the sheer size of his following, which was almost unprecedented.

FBI records and other Government files on Lennon indicate the Establishment viewed him as a very dangerous activist. For example, FBI director J. Edgar Hoover personally wrote on Lennon’s file: “ALL EXTREMISTS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED DANGEROUS.”

Another such file said the ex-Beatle, who by then was a US resident, was able to “draw one million anti-war protestors in any given city in 24 hours”. That is some serious influence, and judging by the declassified files it’s obvious the Military Industrial Complex viewed Lennon as a potential stumbling block to their plans for future wars.

Sean Lennon, the son of John and Yoko Ono, told the New Yorker in April 1998 that his father “was dangerous to the government” and “If he had said ‘Bomb the White House tomorrow,’ there would have been 10,000 people who would have done it. These pacifist revolutionaries are historically killed by the government”.

The only thing counting against this whole premise is that Lennon was killed in 1980 – long after the likes of JFK, RFK, MLK and others were killed and long after the civil unrest of the 1960’s and early 1970’s had faded. It was a different political and social climate by then with less foreign wars and less volatility within America. Some have even argued that Lennon’s star power was waning, at least slightly, by 1980.

Of course, it’s not known what Lennon was planning at the time of his death, and for all anyone knows the authorities may have gotten wind of some radical peace movement he was hatching.

To add yet another curiosity to the mix, while Chapman patiently waited for the police to arrive and arrest him, he stood at the scene of the crime reading a copy of The Catcher in the Rye. Many conspiracy theorists believe that finding this particular book in the hands of an assassin is no mere coincidence. Regardless, it must have been a macabre sight to see Lennon lying dead on the ground with his murderer standing over him happily reading J.D. Salinger’s classic novel.



Note to group members: Here's a comprehensive section on The Catcher in the Rye conspiracies if anyone is interested https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

I just found this link about the same subject....

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

It might be interesting to some on here to hear what others have written.

Some good points in that thread you linked to, Cosmic, and most believe Lennon's death wasn't due to The Catcher, but just a weird coincidence.
And the general consensus may well be right.

But then again, some of the finer details on this subject aren't exactly common knowledge.

For example, Mark David Chapman wasn't originally the dimwit or psycho that most believe him to be. His employment history as a World Vision staff member in good standing, as well as his possible CIA connections, are mentioned in this post:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Nor are the most intricate details of Salinger's life common knowledge and it's not clear how detailed his involvement with former Nazis was, as per this post: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
To really understand the possible ramifications of Salinger's WW2 career and interactions with Nazis, one would also need to study Project Paperclip which has an entire section devoted to it in this group.

It's unlikely any of us will ever know the truth for sure on this whole subject.
One thing that needs to be observed in analyzing The Catcher in relation to mind control is that the book has sooooo many fans - fans who either consciously or subconsciously want to dismiss any possible wrongdoing of Salinger simply because they are focusing on his literary genius.

So if it is possible to ever find the truth as to whether The Catcher has neurolinguistic writing cleverly inserted in certain passages of the book, I would assume one would need to take a step back from the masterpiece and its writer and just look at it totally impassively.
There's a book, there's an author (who was a former intelligence agent) and there's a lot of criminals obsessed with the book (some of whom also claimed to be under mind control).
Now what does all that add up to?
Is it mere coincidence as most believe?
Or did something more sinister occur in either the writing and/or editing of the book before its publication?

I certainly don't have any definitive answers and am merely raising questions.

Here's an excerpt from The Catcher in the Rye Enigma: J.D. Salinger's Mind Control Triggering Device or a Coincidental Literary Obsession of Criminals?

The mother of all Catcher incidents is probably Mark David Chapman’s assassination of John Lennon on December 8, 1980. As widely reported, and as mentioned in the previous chapter, the killer stood over the ex-Beatle’s corpse after shooting him and patiently read a copy of Salinger’s classic while waiting for police to arrive and arrest him.

Not long before the murder, Chapman had wanted to change his name to the novel’s narrator and anti-hero Holden Caulfield – so enamored was he with this fictitious character; inside the very copy of the book Chapman had purchased on the day of the murder, police found he’d written, “To Holden Caulfield, From Holden Caulfield, This is my statement”; and during the court case that followed, Chapman read a passage from the novel when addressing the judge and jury during his sentencing.


More on the man who killed John Lennon

On February 9, 1981, The New York Times ran an article stating Mark David Chapman was preparing to plead insanity at the upcoming trial in which he was accused of murdering John Lennon. The article mentions Chapman had developed an unhealthy “obsession” with Catcher and “in a handwritten statement delivered to The New York Times last week, Mr. Chapman” had “urged everyone to read the novel, a copy of which was in his possession when he was arrested”.

Chapman had apparently told the NY Times that reading the book would “help many to understand what has happened”.

The newspaper also reported that the accused’s statement ended with: “My wish is for all of you to someday read 'The Catcher in the Rye.' All of my efforts will now be devoted toward this goal, for this extraordinary book holds many answers. My true hope is that in wanting to find these answers you will read 'The Catcher in the Rye.' Thank you.”

The accused’s statement was signed “Mark David Chapman – The Catcher in the Rye.”

During the trial that followed, Chapman continued to promote the book. At times he would open up a copy and begin reading intently for all to see the book’s cover. On other occasions he would stand up excitedly and shout to everyone in the court, imploring them to read the novel.

“If you sat around there long enough and heard all the phonies applauding and all, you got to hate everybody in the world.” –J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye

It also came out during the court case that shortly before the assassination Chapman would sit in his room chanting the mantra, “THE PHONY MUST DIE SAYS THE CATCHER IN THE RYE!” as well as “JOHN LENNON MUST DIE SAYS THE CATCHER IN THE RYE!”

These phrases are eerily similar to Sirhan Sirhan’s documented diary entries in which he repeatedly wrote “RFK MUST DIE!”

Another parallel is that the word phony in the aforementioned mantra was borrowed from Catcher, once again indicating that Chapman’s murder of Lennon was somehow inspired by the book.

There is also an urban legend which says John Lennon himself was in the middle of reading the novel the week he was killed. There’s no solid evidence to confirm this, and if Yoko Ono knows, she isn’t saying.

What can be confirmed is Mark David Chapman’s ties with World Vision. As mentioned in chapter 3, it’s a little known fact that Chapman was a former World Vision employee and children’s counsellor who worked in refugee camps all over the world. Contrary to media reports, he was by all accounts formerly a good citizen who exhibited no signs of mental illness.

As some researchers have speculated, Chapman may have been drugged by CIA agents and forced into their MK-Ultra program while doing aid work for World Vision in Beirut. Some conspiracy theories claim this MK-Ultra program included setting up mind control triggers by repeating certain sentences from Catcher for long, sustained periods.

But that’s not where the World Vision link to Salinger’s novel, or its deadly aftermath, ends…(see this link for more about this World Vision connection: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...)

Let Me Take You Down: Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman, the Man Who Killed John Lennon



Death of a Dreamer: The Assassination of John Lennon



The John Lennon Conspiracy

SHOCK CLAIM: John Lennon ‘murdered by the CIA' http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lates...
JOHN Lennon was shot dead by a killer trained by the CIA to stop the superstar radicalising the West, according to staggering claims.

It would hardly be surprising if the CIA did want Lennon out of the way. He was the most highly-regarded counter-culturist of his time. Radicalising the West? Hmmm! (Lennon was a master of revolution from within.)

I found it interesting to find in Warren & Hinckle's 'Deadly Secrets-The CIA-Mafia War Against Castro and the Assassination of JFK', published in 1992 that the head of CIA's Operation 40 in Miami was one Jose Perdomo.
There was a Jose Perdomo working as doorman at the Dakota Building & beside Mark David Chapman when Lennon was murdered.
Coincidence?

Mind Games - John Lennon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVYXW...

It should be added when Yoko was asked if there could have been others involved influencing or with Chapman she did not deny this as conspiracy theory but said I am not sure but it seems it may well have been. And Chapman had gained a love hate obsession with Lennon and said he wanted to see in person if Lennon was the real deal (as well as wanting to remove him from “the Rye”). His first meeting him he seemed to think he was authentic and not just a figurehead and almost didn’t do it but then went back and did. Some may think this shows lack of being hypnotized but with ambivalence and fixation showing I think it shows more likely he was in a hypnotic and pressurized state. Thank you for everything you put here on this, especially the quote from Sean I didn’t know about. We should also mention Heraldo Rivera in a documentary said he had directly talked back then with people at the top of the FBI he was in some kind of group with who were assessing his threat level and did decide to look into him and tap his phones which Lennon talked about happening. Also Elliott Smith loved Lennon and was getting political in his last songs when he started seeing black vans driving around following him and the verdict is with most people I know he was murdered with Chiba’s direct or indirect involvement. And people closest to Love are writing stuff how she worked with gov creeps and even moreso before she met him and that she quarterbacked the whole thing per her own private investigator she hired...Cobain said in an interview the only thing Lennon got wrong is he didn’t go far enough and that people should kill their local agents of repression. Then Morrison, high up as his Dad was, was warned through Kunstler being told by Sinatra who knew people that Morrison was about to be done in and that that is the reason he fled to Paris indefinitely telling everyone he was about to be lucky number three of the J’s. People have no idea how much culture is determined by a few colorful hubs unlike most of us and how much we lost to the now more mechanical emotional life that won as a result of all these deaths. It is unfathomable.

I'm convinced Lennon was a threat, P.D.
Even as late as 1980 (I think Lennon was about to enter a major new phase of his life that's been underreported - he hadn't finished, he was just warming up to all the things he wanted to do for the common people)
It wasn't just his enormous following, but his mind and his will to challenge all forms of injustice...

The FBI file that said Lennon was able to “draw one million anti-war protestors in any given city in 24 hours” = a big fucking problem for the powers that be.

A problem they'd love to go away.

But it's always a mad lone gunman who by sheer coincidence and no link to any form of power, just happens to kill the person who a threat to the establishment. Whether it's MLK, RFK, JFK or Lennon, it's always some nutter who is supposedly working totally independently...

But dig a little deeper and strong connections usually become visible between such "loner" murderers and the Establishment.

"There's room at the top they're telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMewt...

Perfect summation of the most important data to remember on this matter, especially the 24 hr factor. I know that song, it's a great one.

Thanks

New details of a popular conspiracy theory have emerged regarding John Lennon's death https://www.buzz.ie/music/new-details...#

John Lennon was shot dead by a killer "trained by the CIA to stop the superstar radicalising the West", according to staggering claims.

An explosive book suggests the Beatles megastar was murdered by US intelligence agencies in a chilling attempt to halt Lennon’s support of “leftist” and “radical” politics.

John Potash’s Drugs as Weapons Against Us states that crime agencies allegedly tracked various high-profile pop stars before their untimely deaths, claiming their huge influence effectively brainwashed young Americans to follow a “leftist agenda”.

James wrote: "New details of a popular conspiracy theory have emerged regarding John Lennon's death https://www.buzz.ie/music/new-details...#

J..."I would add that the Buzz article omits mention of LBJ's launch in 1968 of Operation Chaos, to combat the growing counterculture opposition to the Vietnam War. Johnson gave green light to FBI as well as CIA. By '68 Lennon was under watch by MI5. (See Jon Wiener 'Gimme Some Truth'.) + (The Covert War Against Rock' Alex Constantine.)

Any Soviet tentacles in there with the supposed 'organic revolution?'

Drug trade links? Agitprop and propaganda? Infiltration of organisations and groups promoting counter-culture? The impact on education(are we now suffering from the effects of Marxist influence)?

In other-words, how much was the cultural shift exploited?

Lennon a Useful Idiot and dupe? At a stretch, a limited Hang-Out or active participant?

John Lennon at 80: One Man Against the Deep State ‘Monster’ https://www.rutherford.org/publicatio...

“You gotta remember, establishment, it’s just a name for evil. The monster doesn’t care whether it kills all the students or whether there’s a revolution. It’s not thinking logically, it’s out of control.”—John Lennon (1969)