Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

Buddy read starts on January 25th.

Who's joining aside from Cat and I?

Count me in! Hi, Silvana :D

mina wrote: "Count me in! Hi, Silvana :D"

Whoa, hello there! Not so often we could find IRL friends in GR forums ;p

Count me in as well, please!

Ariel wrote: "Count me in as well, please!"

See you in two weeks!

Already started a little bit. The language structure is a little bit different.

Eh? Don't be too fast, I'm only going to start next week 😆

I am so proud of myself that I remembered to get this book in advance of the actual start date for the read! Looking forward to starting reading :)

Wait till you have your own buddy read calendar and consult it regularly :D

I might start one day early i.e. tomorrow.

Chapter 1

I did not realize this is a (view spoiler)[portal fantasy (hide spoiler)] since I did not really pay attention to the description.

The old school vibe (view spoiler)[with a mage, a dwarf and an evil skulking monster all in the first chapter (hide spoiler)] was kind of jarring due to my current fantasy consumption but I am excited.

Chapter 5

The university people
(view spoiler)[I am still not convinced on why they had to come to the festival. Just for guests? And that most of them except one were like totally ready to follow this weird mage and his dwarf companion just like that. They were so trusting!I mean, even the Pevensie children in Narnia were super skeptical. (hide spoiler)]

On the Summer Tree (view spoiler)[when it was mentioned as a hanging tree, it just gave me visceral images of innocent people hung in trees....I always picture hanging tree to be symbol of injustice but maybe because I watched too many movies. (hide spoiler)]

So far I have not yet connected with the characters....Ugh that prince is so annoying.

And if (view spoiler)[Dave or whoever the missing person was turned out to be like Edmund in Narnia - another portal fantasy - I'll be really annoyed. (hide spoiler)]

So I was reading some reviews about this (because I want to validate my feelings LOL) but then I got spoiled on a thing that supposed to be a trigger warning.

It says this happen near the end, but it made me upset.
(view spoiler)[a brutal rape of one of the characters. (hide spoiler)]

Since I am in chapter 9 now I think I know the victim.
(view spoiler)[Jennifer since she got kidnapped and the captor was really creepy, talking about her as a prize, etc. (hide spoiler)]

Sigh. I am still going to continue the book but will definitely skip that part, just like I did with Altered Carbon's (view spoiler)[dog torture scene. (hide spoiler)]

I've just finished Chapter 5.
I don't mind the old-school vibe, it's my preferred fantasy style, and Guy Gavriel Kay is such a good writer... it's like sinking into something cosy, and familiar, but still interesting and enjoyable. It just sucked me right in from the start. It did make me realise how few high/epic fantasies are written these days that aren't all grimdark and gore.

Silvana wrote: "The university people
[spoilers removed]

Yeh... it was kinda skimmed over (view spoiler)[ I mean there were hints that not all the information was given... but yes, not a lot of skepticism. But as a portal fantasy, I think the main concern was just getting them over there! I felt like the author wanted to get that section over as quickly as possible (hide spoiler)]

So far I have not yet connected with the characters....Ugh that prince is so annoying.

I haven't really connected with the characters either, I feel like we've been introduced to so many so quickly! I'm hoping that we'll get a better feel for them as we go along.

And if [spoilers ..."Agreed!!

Just got to 25% of the book (Chapter 6-ish?).

I agree with both of you that indeed it's odd that all the Five (view spoiler)[just followed the mage and dwarf through the portal with only a bit of questioning from 1-2 of them (and a "hologram" view of Paras Derval). Unless they had personal reasons.
Is it possible Paul has been able to see into another world before without being helped? He's not that shocked when Loren probed him at the beginning. Moreover, is he a wolf?
And Kim, she had that dream, so she might be related somehow to the Fionavar.
I am not sure about Kevin and Jennifer, though.
And Dave seems like an annoying character from the start. (hide spoiler)]

I am still not sure how I feel about the Prince, but he seems (view spoiler)[loyal to his father, especially after he ordered the farmer to be killed after the farmer said something about the King and the Summer Tree. And he's not some spoiled Prince laying around in the palace, he actually went out through dangerous places doing things for the kingdom. So, points for him. (hide spoiler)]

The way the magic's done in Fionavar is different from previous fantasy stories I have read. Still looking forward to see why (view spoiler)[the sources agreed to become the power of the mages, aside from the obvious ones (friends from they were small, etc). Particularly why Matt, the King of the Dwarves, agreed to become the source for Loren. (hide spoiler)]

The story goes in straight line, so it is an easy and quick read.

mina wrote: "The story goes in straight line, so it is an easy and quick read. "

Ah, so I guess you are not confused at all with the changing POVs in one chapter.

Since I was not really into the characters yet (maybe I won't ever), I am labeling them to make it easier:
Kim - the Seer-in-training
Kevin - the loverboy
Paul - the angsty one
Dave - the missing one, sounds like the rebel type (view spoiler)[since he was the only one objecting to the portal travel, I actually kind of liked him more than the others (hide spoiler)]
Jen - the pretty one
But that's about it - I would love some more layers to make them more relatable but I am not there yet.

Cat wrote: "I've just finished Chapter 5.
I don't mind the old-school vibe, it's my preferred fantasy style, and Guy Gavriel Kay is such a good writer... it's like sinking into something cosy, and familiar, bu..."

I just checked and the book was apparently published first in 1984 (It thought it was the 90s) so it definitely lived up to the period :D

It reminds me of The Silmarilion a bit - no wonder since Kay helped Christopher Tolkien in editing - with the mention of so many myths and ancient histories and historical figures etc.

Silvana wrote: "Since I was not really into the characters yet (maybe I won't ever), I am labeling them to make it easier:
Kim - the Seer-in-training
Kevin - the loverboy..."

Hahahaha, love it. I must admit I had been thinking of them in terms of which archetypal character they were. So far none of them has really broken out of those roles. Although, I feel like Kevin might... at least I feel like he's being a little bit more layered than the others (view spoiler)[ what with his anxiety and concern re: Paul and the song he composed which I thought was a nice touch, he's not just a pretty face. Besides, I feel like the prince is definitely being cast as super-loverboy, so Kevin had to do something different (hide spoiler)] I'm not sure I like Dave, he seemed like a jerk. But then I haven't made it back to his POV yet...

What I did not get what the whole excursion to the neighbouring country and the interlude with Sharra... seriously?! What was that about? I'm waiting for it to become relevant to the story. I mean so far the most important bit was (view spoiler)[ that Paul and Kevin had a heart to heart (why do boys not talk about feelings until it's life and death??). As for the other thing... The only thing I can think is that it's going to start a war or Sharra is going to get pregnant and definitely start a war (hide spoiler)]

Finished. I am sorely disappointed with this one. I was going to give it two stars but found myself could only think of things I dislike from the book so I decided to give it the lowest rating.

My fear in message #12 has been proven, even just skimming that part I still feel disturbed and mostly annoyed that (view spoiler)[ why her friends busied themselves with the stupid court intrigues while her friend was already in captivity for days and apparently getting brutalized by her captor? And what awesome host Loren & Co was! Having your guest kidnapped like that, didn't they promised security and protection, even from that useless priestess Jaelle, with all their magic and shit, could not they split party and come and get Jen? Seriously Kim was the only one who actually did something - although very late - at the end, while the rest of the boys were either playing Jesus or Romeo or whatever. They (including the useless loverboy prince) seemed to be clamoring for rescue but then they seemed to forget about it. Oh yeah she was taken by a black swan. *shrug

Even Paul, his self-inflicted redemption arc became cheap when he apparently survived. Now, I like the crucifixion stuff in Hyperion better but that's another story. (hide spoiler)]

Anyway, you see I have nothing but rants at the end, so suffice to say I won't continue the series.

And I really, really, REALLY hope Tigana does not suck as much since I am scheduled to read it next month.

The Sharra interlude (view spoiler)[it was still confusing till the end. why did she felt she needed to kill him? and totally botched the process too. I think they both deserve each other. Silly royals. (hide spoiler)]

Dave (view spoiler)[there's a lot of pages of him being one of the riders of Rohan and stuff, might as well becoming another book. And wow, he got skillz in a very short time so yeah I guess for plot sake - same with Kimberly who became a seer just like that.

Yup, that Suddenly Always Knew That trope for you.
(hide spoiler)]

I started this later than I meant to. I was finishing up The Blind Assassin. Finished chapter 7 last night. It does feel like a fairly quick read but I think I'd find the quickly shifting POVs more jarring if it weren't for the style of what I was just reading. At this point, after Blind Assassin, I'm just happy reading a book that's a relatively straightforward progressing timeline lol.

I'm with y'all - the beginning was a bit off for me. I liked the style from the get-go because of the old school vibe but I wasn't hooked by the characters. If anything (view spoiler)[I would have loved to follow the mysterious, evil creature's perspective for a bit more rather than hopping right to the five people needed for the circle. I mean, I guess we see why each person was chosen eventually unfold but why they were chosen doesn't really explain (as of yet) why they were so willing to skip merrily into an alternate world. Even Dave's freak out at the last moment felt glossed over. (hide spoiler)]

I'm still interested in where the Prince's arc goes but I'm also not a big fan. The Sharra bit (so far) is... weird? (view spoiler)[At this point, I've just read the interlude in the garden so I'm not sure how much more develops. Can't tell if he really spent ages playing the romantic in letters just to have sex with her simply bc she's beautiful and apparently a virgin or if he was trying to establish something between the two kingdoms despite not actually having feelings for her. The whole deal was sooooo awkward. One, I couldn't buy what she was falling for (possibly bc I'm not his biggest fan & possibly bc it might have helped to have more to go on - maybe more letters between the two or just more development overall) and two, I imagine all of the men heard them together, right? Sure, he seems the Lothario of the group but one of the men almost dies for an awkwardly engineered booty call? Plus, did they forget to look for Dave? 'Cause, at this point, lots of people are going off to look for the dude yet, you know, not actually looking for him. (hide spoiler)] I'm with you, Cat, (view spoiler)[I liked the bit between Paul and Kevin but there was a massive sense of "finally, how long does it take you to just talk about your freakin' feelings!?" (hide spoiler)]

So far, the friendship between Kevin and Paul has been the most interesting part to me. Simply bc there have been some layers there & those have added to the layers of each character in turn. I am curious to see more of how Dave fits with them. I'm hoping that we get to see that same friendship development with the women bc, so far, (view spoiler)[there hasn't been much. I was holding out some hope since they're roommates - thought we might see more from them as far as deciding whether they would go or not, etc. They don't feel particularly close to me, though. (hide spoiler)]

As far as the magic goes, (view spoiler)[it is an interesting concept. Having a source or having the energy necessary for magic come from the world. A different take of all magic having a cost and a drain/cost that's easier to see as a reader. I'm hoping we see more of how a source is found and how the two bind to together as well. The story of Nilsom and Aideen that Matt tells Jennifer was an interesting touch (although the woman being cursed bc she stands up to a man that she's "loved forever" is fairly trope-ish) but I'm still hoping there's more at some point. (hide spoiler)]

Ariel wrote: "I started this later than I meant to. I was finishing up The Blind Assassin. Finished chapter 7 last night. It does feel like a fairly quick read but I think I'd find the quickly shifting POVs more..."

Yeah I still did not really get on why each were chosen. I mean Kim and Paul maybe, but the other three? It would be more believable if some were just accidentally included or something. Having this from the evil side's POV would make it more interesting.

About them (view spoiler)[did not really try to find Dave despite the magic resources, well, they did much worse later.... Really great friends these five are... (hide spoiler)]

Ah, Silvana, your review and comments have made me laugh. I totally understand and get it, I agree with you and yet, I'm still going to rate it well.

I really enjoyed the world building, and I do think Kay is a good writer, even though there were some clumsy bits. And the section with Dave and the Dalrei made up a lot for me. Not because I actually like Dave, I think that he's a jerk, but because I really enjoyed 1) not changing POV all the time 2) getting to know the culture a bit 3) I think that it included some of the best characters in the whole book. I actually felt like Ivor was actually a person not a cardboard cutout.
Of the main characters, I don't think I actually liked or cared about a single one. There were almost too many.
But yeh, overall, there were some massive issues with this book, and it has dated.
Basically I gave this books two and a half stars then add half a star for the Dalrei and another star for the world-building.

I am so glad you liked it, Cat! I always feel guilty whenever I proposed something that my buddies eventually hated :D

Think you had the right notion with skipping over the (view spoiler)[brutal rape scene w/ Jennifer (hide spoiler)], Silvana. Very hard to stomach. I'd thought about doing the same but I was really tired when I was finishing up the book and next thing I knew, there it was. I will say this - it could have been worse. (view spoiler)[Not the actual rape/torture, that was ... Kay's writing of the scene could have been much worse considering what's out there. I.e. more exploitative/less empathetic. Feels like any time there's a female character in a fantasy novel, she's there to be raped, told repeatedly in a multitude of ways how weak she is bc she's a woman until she gets the gumption to fight back, or cry about events that the super-macho he-men are too manly to cry about. Of course, that's my jaded side speaking and I think it's important to remember when this was written/that there's been an uptick in strong, awesome female characters in sci-fi and fantasy whose adventures don't have to include a rape for shock value and/or authors who actually get what rape entails bc of personal experience or empathy & are able to write about it in such a way that they communicate something important to readers.

Jennifer was left wrapped up in the cliffhanger so I'm left hoping that Kay falls into the latter category. (hide spoiler)]

At the end, (view spoiler)[ I can't say that I'm sure whether Kim gets Jennifer out or not. I'd imagine so but part of me wonders if we'll see all of the characters back in Fionavar or if they didn't get trapped in another world as they were trying to come back or if something else went awry. (hide spoiler)] What did y'all think? Are y'all going to continue with the books?

I rated it 3 stars, primarily for Kay's world-building. I cared more for Paul than any of the other characters but I would really like to see more from everyone. I'd like to know why Jennifer was targeted and why (view spoiler)[it's so important for her to die (hide spoiler)]. Considering that this was written in the 80's, I think it's interesting that (view spoiler)[ it was Kim who saved(?) Jennifer. If it was going firmly in the way of tropes, it probably would have ended up being one of the guys I would imagine. So, I'm holding out hope that we might see more layers to their friendship as a party to whatever their storyline ends up being. (hide spoiler)]

I would've liked to see more of the Dalrei and I liked how Kay wrote Paul's (view spoiler)[experience on the tree and what lead to him sacrificing himself. (hide spoiler)]

Finished the book yesterday. I don't think I want to continue reading the series.

Let's start with things that I am not really happy about:
Turns out the whole book is only an introduction to all the characters and the preparation (in roles) for the war against the Evil. I remember reading Eragon long time ago, a whole thick book is about introduction and preparation, also stop at Book 1. Does not mean that I don't like books with no real action in it (there are a lot of actions in this book, but not the main one), and I like books with many characters that needs a list of characters at the beginning. But in this book, they are not interesting enough to make me care. Oh wait, I do care about what would happen to Ivor's family and the whole third tribe of Dalrei. I don't really like the hunting scene (it was well written, however), but their way of life is interesting to read.

Each subchapters was written in a way that I can go on for 1-2 paragraph(s) without really sure who the character is. The author only used pronoun, so sometimes the readers have to guess who is he talking about.

I don't like that the author wrote all females in this book seems like they're only interested in sex. Except for Jaelle and the Seer, but that's because they're not to have male partners, probably?

I really wanted that the Prince was more than just a bad boy, that he had reasons and could foretell the future, when he decided to go south to find Dave, but turned out that it was really a sexual excursion to Cathal's garden, almost sacrificing his loyal crew in the process. Everytime I feel that the Prince is actually okey, he did something stupid or useless or insulting. And the Dark Rose, at first I think she's spoilt and hard-headed but it's okay (her father made her so deliberately), but then she (view spoiler)[went out and tried to kill the Prince (what for?) and failed. I kinda like that she's badass, but her sudden skill of knife-throwing and jumping from balconies are unexpected and haven't been mentioned at all previously. Sidenote: even Kevin suddenly jumped very well from the balcony, what's with these people? (hide spoiler)]

I read SF more than fantasy, so my experience in this is not extensive. But the creatures in the book are dangerously similar to Middle Earth world, even down to the magical forest. Only the names are somewhat different. I am sure the svart alfar looks like orcs, and the urgach looks like uruk-hai. No (view spoiler)[unicorns in Middle Earth, though. (hide spoiler)]

Hate the rape, too. Why should he raped her anyway? And (view spoiler)[Jen would be saved, of course. All the Five would be alive, since they are the main characters, judging from the list of characters at the beginning. Hey, Paul's alive, was he? (hide spoiler)]

Now, what I like from the book:
It's straightforward, easy to understand (although not always logical), and the storyline is not dragging at all, despite all the flamboyant words. I finished this book relatively quick (compared to, say, Ancillary Justice, a book I read before this).

Um, what else? Yep, maybe only this one, haha.

Silvana wrote: "Even Paul, his self-inflicted redemption arc became cheap when he apparently survived. Now, I like the crucifixion stuff in Hyperion better but that's another story.."

Oh my God, the crucifixion in Hyperion. I still have strong feeling about it. I think I need to have this book in paperback version (I only have the Kindle version), it is that good, even if I don't really understand it sometimes.

And about the Prince and the Dark Rose deserving each other, cannot agree more :D

Ariel wrote: "Sure, he seems the Lothario of the group but one of the men almost dies for an awkwardly engineered booty call? Plus, did they forget to look for Dave? 'Cause, at this point, lots of people are going off to look for the dude yet, you know, not actually looking for him.."

LOL, indeed you are right!

Now I really will not continue reading the series.

I'm not entirely convinced about continuing on with this series. I may if I can get the rest cheap on a kindle special or from a second hand bookshop or the library or something. I'm not going to go out of my way to read it, I've got a lot of other unfinished series that I'm more motivated to read.

I didn't get to join in on this read, but I did want to encourage all of you to continue with the series. The first book is the weakest one, and they just get better and better as the series progresses.

@mina: yes he is (view spoiler)[and that's why his so called sacrifice became less dramatic and useless to me. Well I did not really care about him anyway. (hide spoiler)]

The similar creatures with LOTR are one of the traits of fantasy in those days, I guess. Lucky we did not have any dragons. Or did we?

And Ancillary Justice is not an easy book to read, to be frank, especially at the start

Kivrin wrote: "I didn't get to join in on this read, but I did want to encourage all of you to continue with the series. The first book is the weakest one, and they just get better and better as the series progre..."

Well that's good to know. Thanks Kivrin

I think I might continue with the series down the road. I like the vintage feel and I'd like to see more of the Dalrei at least. Plus, I'm an indefatigably stubborn series junkie so I can't help myself lol.