Black Coffee discussion

With the Micheal Brown Protest/riot and the Trayvon Martin protest, it has me thinking about past vs. present. Now I'm not here to start a debate on the facts of the Michael Brown shooting etc. I do not speak publicy about matters like this without having all the facts. But it had me thinking about a few things.

First, it makes me so proud to see how many people, black and white, are standing up for what they believe in. It makes me proud to see people with their signs, marching, protesting and actively and nonviolently, supporting Michael Brown, his family and the bigger picture, justice. So many years I believe that people have just sat and talked about what should be done and no one was going out there doing anything. I protested for the Trayvon Martin cause and let me tell you I felt like I was making a difference.

On a negative side, it makes me sad thinking about how far we've come as a country and a race yet we haven't gone as far as we'd thought. So many of us, myself included, have become so comfortable in our "normal" that we haven't noticed the many changes that still need to happen. I personally am not hear to say if the shooting was fair or not fair. I have learned that the media will show you what they choose and leave out the rest. But My mind has been floating a thousand miles an hour with "the bigger picture".

My local radio did a talk show about "police profiling" and "targeting" young black men. He was motivated to have this discussion because of the Michael Brown case but he isn't referring to the case. I think that's an important fact. The hosts was making a point about how young black men would make it a lot easier on themselves if they'd simply "stop fitting the description." We all know the "description", black hoodie, baggy sagging pants, corn rolls ect... A man called in to the station outraged at what he said. He believes it's a violation of our rights as Americans to be harassed because of what one wears, says or does. He believes everyone should be able to be themselves regardless of if it makes someone feels uncomfortable.

I think both men had valid points. But I believe that some black men do make it harder on themselves. We do know the infamous "description" and continue to fit it. I always tell my younger brother who is 20, if you walk around looking as if you are about to rob someone who will be treated like a robber. However, I think that something needs to be done about the injustice in the system. What are your thoughts on all of this?

I agree with a lot of what you said. But rather than just not dressing a certain way, I believe that young men need to be taught how to handle themselves in certain situations. I've been in situations where just because I'm black, people expect aggression from me and they automatically perceive everything I say and do as aggressive even if I'm not being in the least bit aggressive or I'm just behaving in the same way they are behaving. In confrontational situations, you are automatically at a disadvantage because of your race so you have to make sure your actions - and especially your demeanour cannot be interpreted in a certain way no matter what the other person is saying or doing. Young black men have to be taught how to handle themselves when they are approached by sometimes aggressive police officers who only see the colour of their skin.

A.D. wrote: "I agree with a lot of what you said. But rather than just not dressing a certain way, I believe that young men need to be taught how to handle themselves in certain situations. I've been in situati..."

I don't think that I could agree more with what you said. Very well said. I think it's all important, especially for young men to know how to handle themselves and represent themselves in a proper way. It's so unfortanate but it's very important to teach our sons these things. It's so disappointing when young black men have to feel like they cannot be themselves. But I'm more concerned with keeping our sons ALIVE!!! By all means necessary.

kisha wrote: "I don't think that I could agree more with what you said. Very well said. I think it's all important, especially for young men to know how to handle themselves and represent themselves in a proper way. It's so unfortanate but it's very important to "

Exactly. They don't realise that in certain situations they do not have the luxury of getting angry (even if they are being provoked) or of even being argumentative. I've seen things recently where college professors have been mistreated by police so sometimes nothing you do will make a difference. But they have to be aware of racial profiling and how to avoid it if they can.

On the one hand I can understand the idea of "not fitting the description" because it's an unfortunate fact that if you are a black man wearing saggy pants and a hoodie, people are most likely going to assume you're a loser who's up to no good and treat you accordingly. It doesn't matter if you're just hanging out with your friends or doing some shopping in Walmart for your mom.

On the other hand, I've grown up in a subculture (I think that's the right term...?) that policed peoples' clothes so I know first hand how that kind of thinking (while well intentioned) can be destructive. Your right to be treated as a human being should not be taken away because of what you wear.

It can be easy to fall into the trap of victim blaming and put the responsibility for preventing these injustices on the people who suffer under it. It's much easier than facing the wrong of the system and can assuage the consciences of those who benefit from the system.

Maybe the answer is to acknowledge the justice system's current prejudices and attempt to work around it in the present (wearing different clothes, etc) while also working towards a future where those prejudices don't exist?

Yeah, I definitely agree that first and foremost it is the system that is wrong. But in talking about black men not fitting the description, it is more about a short term solution and making sure they stay alive. It is also difficult to know what needs to be done to change the system because whenever there is an unlawful killing there's always a lot of media attention, sometimes we see justice done, sometimes we don't. But I don't know if any real changes are made that will stop it happening again, which is the depressing thing.

A.D. wrote: "Yeah, I definitely agree that first and foremost it is the system that is wrong. But in talking about black men not fitting the description, it is more about a short term solution and making sure t..."

Yeah I agree, their lives are more important than clothes.

"Maybe the answer is to acknowledge the justice system's current prejudices and attempt to work around it in the present (wearing different clothes, etc) while also working towards a future where those prejudices don't exist?"

Valid point and I feel the exact same way, Anastasia.

kisha wrote: ""Maybe the answer is to acknowledge the justice system's current prejudices and attempt to work around it in the present (wearing different clothes, etc) while also working towards a future where t..."

Thanks, Kisha. We should put you in charge of the whole system, I'll bet you'd straighten it out pretty good. :)

Thanks, Kisha. We should put you in charge of the whole system, I'll bet you'd straighten it out pretty good. :) "

lol. I'm sure you would too, Kisha:-)

They aren't ready for me lol

lol

I believe that to some degree, one's appearance should not result in them being treated as a criminal. Criminal activity involves behavior, as opposed to appearance. However, knowing that people will prejudge us Black males based on our appearance, I feel that many Black males invite suspicion. In an ideal world, everyone would be treated with respect regardless of their appearance. But in reality, many people will be disinclined to respect someone who walks around with their pants sagging, underwear showing, tattoos all over their bodies, a mop on their head, and who call other Blacks “nigga.” If they don’t respect themselves, based on their appearance, they shouldn’t expect others to treat them with respect.

With that being said, there is virtually nothing we can do to persuade truly racist people to see us differently. However, there are things we can do to disarm people from using excuses for mistreating us. And that will involve Blacks acknowledging facts that many don’t want to accept. For example, the amount of violence in our communities, the truth of which many Blacks refuse to acknowledge and foolishly compare to what White people do as a way to excuse it. I’m speaking of the fact that of the murders where the race of both the perp and victim are known, Blacks constitute half of the victims of whom more than 90% were killed by other Blacks. That’s extremely disproportionate because we’re only 13% of the population. Additionally, seemingly too many Blacks take pride participating and portraying the worst about us in TV and music, and make an effort to use bad grammar. It’s as if for many, there has been no progress since slavery ended.

In essence, although we might not be able to get truly racist people to look at us positively, we can control the image we present to others. And that will involve a change in our behavior, and show that we respect ourselves if we want others to respect us. Let them be wrong for how they treat us, but we shouldn't provide them with excuses for their hatred and aggression.

"With that being said, there is virtually nothing we can do to persuade truly racist people to see us differently. However, there are things we can do to disarm people from using excuses for mistreating us. And that will involve Blacks acknowledging facts that many don’t want to accept. For example, the amount of violence in our communities, the truth of which many Blacks refuse to acknowledge and foolishly compare to what White people do as a way to excuse it. I’m speaking of the fact that of the murders where the race of both the perp and victim are known, Blacks constitute half of the victims of whom more than 90% were killed by other Blacks. That’s extremely disproportionate because we’re only 13% of the population. Additionally, seemingly too many Blacks take pride participating and portraying the worst about us in TV and music, and make an effort to use bad grammar. It’s as if for many, there has been no progress since slavery ended."

Very well said. I make this same exact arguement on a blog site that I participate in and I must say that they are typically defensive and talk around everything that I say. It's not about being ashamed and talking down on our race. It's about recgonizing the problem first in order to find a resolution. Very well put, Jeron. I couldn't possibly agree more.

Thanks.

When people criticize the views that you and I express, I always think of the things I've heard in reference to recovery from substance abuse: the first step is for someone to admit they have a problem. Unfortunately, many Blacks refuse to admit that, thus our problems continue to fester.

Couldn't have said it better!

Jeron wrote: If they don’t respect themselves, based on their appearance, they shouldn’t expect others to treat them with respect.

Aren't we kind of assuming that because someone dresses a certain way they automatically don't respect themselves? We can't honestly know that unless we talk with them.

"Knowing that people will prejudge us Black males based on our appearance, I feel that many Black males invite suspicion. In an ideal world, everyone would be treated with respect regardless of their appearance. But in reality, many people will be disinclined to respect someone who walks around with their pants sagging, underwear showing, tattoos all over their bodies, a mop on their head, and who call other Blacks “nigga.”

This image is the most replicated...yet least respected. Is it because the black man (woman) himself is not respected?

Anastasia,

I grew up with gangbangers and criminals in L.A. Of the group I grew up with, VERY FEW of us reached 21 alive with a high school diploma, and no criminal record. And based on the way the criminals dressed, the things they did to themselves and other Black people, and the reverence they gave Whites and particularly White cops, I say yes, on the whole one's appearance is a reflection of how they feel about themself.

Lulu,

No. It's not respected because it's sloppy and looks bad. Sagging with underwear showing began among criminals. When I was growing up, the only people who were heavily tattooed were outlaw bikers and people who had been to prison.

Why would anyone who wants to be respected, reasonably expect people to respect them if they look like they're part of an undesirable element?

This image is the most replicated...yet least respected. Is it because the black man (woman) himself is not respected?

I think that would be subjective. But for me it isn't necessarily about respect more so about our culture as a whole being misunderstood and unaccepted by other cultures. Whether people accept and believe it or not all cultures are different. We eat different, talk different, socialize different, look different, dress different etc. However, we (as the minority) are expected (by many) to learn how to turn on and off our culture when in the real world. For example, I have dreadlocs. When I was in the interviewing process of employment I found it hard to get pass the interview stage. Once I figured it could possibly be my hair, I went out and bought a wig for interviews. After purchasing my wig I had two interviews and was offered both jobs. I think it's all a way of isolating our culture. But in other ways I think we bring it on ourselves. Example, the sagging, blasting loud music, or as my grandmother would say "walking around looking like you're about to rob someone." lol I didn't understand it then but I understand it now. My thing is don't look like a target if you don't want to be targeted (still not an excuse to be targeted however).

I don't think the amount of respect a person gets should depend on what clothes they wear. I don't think you can assume that everyone who dresses a certain way feels one way about themselves. They're a human being, no matter what they wear.

That being said, it's unfortunate that being targeted based on what you wear is a reality. People judge you based on your clothes (and how clean you are and the color of your skin, etc). Like I said before, I think the best solution is to work with the system until it can be changed.

"Like I said before, I think the best solution is to work with the system until it can be changed.

I definitely agree with you on that one Anastasia. It's something that takes hard work, dedication, change and many years. I think we as a country have come very far and credit is due for that, but we still have a ways to go.

kisha wrote: ""Like I said before, I think the best solution is to work with the system until it can be changed.

I definitely agree with you on that one Anastasia. It's something that takes hard work, dedicat..."

We should celebrate the improvements and continue working to make things better. :)