North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[Margaret has to face the difficult task of telling her mother that Mr. Hale has decided that the family will soon leave Helstone for the industrial town of Milton. The family packs up their house and begins their journey to the Northern town. (hide spoiler)]

I just can't believe Margaret's father (view spoiler)[kept his secret from his wife and daughter all that time, and then dumped on Margaret the obligation of telling her mother the bad news. What.A.Wimp! Maybe it will get better later on but right now I have zero respect for either of her parents. It's amazing that they managed to produce a daughter who's organized and capable. Maybe she had to be with parents like that . . .

Also, how do you understand her father's crisis of faith? My understanding is that he still believes in God, but doesn't believe the Anglican church (I think that's what he was) is true any more, but it was a little confusing because at least so far he hasn't replaced that lost faith with anything else. Maybe he thinks all organized religion is man-made? (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 6--This made me smile: "There was no particular need to tell them, that what he did not care to do for a Reverend Mr. Hale, unknown in Milton, he was only too glad to do at the one short sharp remonstrance of Mr. Thornton, the wealthy manufacturer."

I felt the same way you did, Tadiana. I couldn't believe that Mr Hale would (view spoiler)[ack the courage to be upfront with his women on that important matter, since whatever he decides will affect them directly. It's not just him but them and their future! Dropping on his daughter's shoulders the responsibility that is exclusively his as head of the family, adult and husband wasn't very responsible, was it?.(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

I'm reading the Penguin Classics edition with commentaries by Patricia Ingham. Unfortunately, the chapter notes are riddled with outrageous and unnecessary spoilers that refer to stuff all the way at the end of the book, but they do have some useful info. On the issue of Mr. Hale's faith, Ingham quotes A. Easson: (view spoiler)['[his doubts] are about accepting the rigid doctrines of the Church of England embodied in the Thirty-Nine Articles--to which those who take Orders must subscribe.' Ingham adds that Gaskell herself was a Unitarian who did not accept a tripartite God, nor Christ as God, as the Articles required. There are some hints that J.A Froude was the model for Hale, but from reading this article, Froude seems a much stronger and more interesting man than Hale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_An... (hide spoiler)]

Tadiana wrote: "End of Chapter 6--This made me smile: "There was no particular need to tell them, that what he did not care to do for a Reverend Mr. Hale, unknown in Milton, he was only too glad to do at the one s..."

Oh yes!!! I loved that one :) So much for blue and pink flowers with yellow leaves!

Marquise wrote: "I felt the same way you did, Tadiana. I couldn't believe that Mr Hale would [spoilers removed]"

Exactly. He seems very weak to me and, not unlike his wife, rather fastidiously self-indulgent. There was that odd and interesting scene in Chapter 3 where we find him in the garden looking over the pears Margaret has picked. He "...chose daintily the ripest fruit." and then proceeds to delicately peel it in one long strip of "silver-paper thinness". (view spoiler)[And then it seems not an hour later he drops this mega-bombshell on Margaret. I was also shocked that he expected his daughter to tell his wife something that he's apparently been stewing over for months, if not longer. It really calls into question their so-called love match. (hide spoiler)]

All true, Tadiana. I also have this suspicion that he'd been planning on doing it beforehand. Margaret has just come from London, and isn't long back in Halstone, during which time her father could've either told her more delicately, or spoken to Mrs Hale himself. That change of heart didn't come about overnight, and he must've had plenty of opportunities to speak before. That makes this look as if he'd been waiting for Margaret to come and hand the responsibility over to her, because he's not able to himself. Can a man get any weaker willed?

Excellent point, Marquise. He was waiting for Margaret to come home to handle everything. What a coward, and really, what a cruel thing to do to both Margaret and his wife. It's one thing to act as your conscience prompts you, but to do it in such a shabby, hurtful way....

... not to mention that he's asking Margaret and his wife to make such a sacrifice with little time to prepare. That also accounts for his daughter's struggles later, as she has to process it when all is a fait accompli.

Yes and they have no idea where they are actually going! Can you even imagine moving an entire household with nothing more than 'we're going to California' ? Uhhh? Would that be San Diego? LA? San Fran? Yes, Dad. No problem, I'll figure it all out for you!!

Oh yes, and I'll get it all done in two weeks!!!

I agree with all of you on this topic - it was cruel to ask Margaret to tell her mother of the move to Milton. But at the same time, I do feel sorry for Mr. Hale, so I can't entirely blame him for the way he acted. He loves his wife very much and could not bear to be the one to add to her sufferings. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but Margaret is a stronger person than either of her parents, and perhaps was the one best equipped to break the news.

What I don't agree with is that Mr. Hale kept the idea from everyone until the matter was all but settled. A decision that momentous should be discussed and talked over by a family, in my opinion. It's one of the few things I agree with Mrs. Hale about... her husband should have told her sooner, and made her feel like her support and her opinion were valued

On the note of Mrs. Hale; I just read the bit where she was debating the quality of the air, when Margaret is trying to cheer her up. Maria says that even if the air in Helstone is too relaxing, it is also pure and sweet, but the air in Milton will be dirty and blah blah... My response: "OMG woman, what kind of air do you want?! Make up your mind already!" *facepalm*

Becca wrote: "I agree with all of you on this topic - it was cruel to ask Margaret to tell her mother of the move to Milton. But at the same time, I do feel sorry for Mr. Hale, so I can't entirely blame him for ..."

I wonder if Mr Hale didn't his wife right away about leaving the church because he was afraid she would talk him out of it.

Becca wrote: "My response: "OMG woman, what kind of air do you want?! Make up your mind already!" *facepalm* "

LOL, Becca...too true :D

@ Nancy: I think you're probably right, but at the same time it simply wasn't fair to Mrs. Hale to be so left out of the decision making process.

@ Samanta: Haha, thanks Samanta! :D I mean really, does she need her air specifically designed for her? *rolls eyes* :P

Becca wrote: "@ Nancy: I think you're probably right, but at the same time it simply wasn't fair to Mrs. Hale to be so left out of the decision making process.

@ Samanta: Haha, thanks Samanta! :D I mean really..."
Well Mrs Hale did always act like the world revolved around her.

LOL. Very true. *goes to design the perfect air for Mrs. Hale* :P (and maybe then she'd stop complaining...)

I admire Mr. Hale for sticking to his conscience but I don't like the way he handled the situation. I think the Hale parents greatly resemble Mama and Papa Bennet in this situation, almost as bad as when Jane Austen came home and Mrs. Austen announced it was all settled, they were moving to Bath. If Mr. Hale just announced it as a done deal I could accept it more because of Victorian ideas about women and children.
This website might help:
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/g...

We used it way back when I was in college reading North and South for the first time and the WWW was new. It's badly in need of reformatting but the links work.

I hadn't thought of drawing a parallel with Mr and Mrs Bennet! Certainly the lack of communication between Mr and Mrs Hale is reminiscent of P&P, but the reasoning behind that communication problem is very different. Mr Hale cared too much about her to involve his wife in making an important decision, while Mr Bennet cared too little. Certainly both women in question complain a great deal, I must say!

Thank you for the link. :) Its pretty late here so I don't have time to look at it tonight, but I'm sure it'll be very interesting when I do get to it.

Well weren't they depressing chapters?! I think the version I'm reading has different chapter breaks to sone of yours, we are as far as London, no dodgy wallpaper yet!

Mr Hale has been so selfish - not for leaving the church, as if he feels it's a job he can no longer do his parishioners deserve better and it is honest and brave of him to step aside rather than hypocritically go brought the motions, but it is selfish that he has made this decision and doesn't even tell his wife himself. He has been waiting for Margaret to come home so she can take care of his responsibilities for him. And then to give them such short notice too, tiresome man. I think he should have involved his wife at an earlier point in his decision making but I can see why he didn't as there is no compromise position available here and in those times the man of the house made the decisions and the woman was expected to put up with it.

These chapters show how strong a character. Margaret is, especially compared to her parents. She doesn't shirk her duties like Mr Hale or whine to the servants like her mother does. Margaret is made of sterner stuff than that. She is strong, capable, resourceful and proud and very driven by doing what she perceives as right even when it is hard. She is also compassionate to the feelings of her parents rather than allowing herself to dwell in her own personal disappointment. I particularly liked this quote:

'By seven the announcement had to be made to her mother. Mr. Hale would have delayed making it till half-past six but Margaret was of different stuff.'

@Hana - Thank you for the info regarding Mr Hale's doubts, I wasn't clear on what his issue was because it's clear he still has faith and loves the church.

@Becca - Mrs Hale wants the air she doesn't have, of course, whatever it may be like! She is one of those people, whatever somebody else has is better than whatever she has, she is the type of person who is incapable of being content, poor thing.

"In the first place, Margaret felt guilty and ashamed of having grown so much into a woman as to be thought of in marriage..."

Therein lies the problem :D

Samanta wrote: ""In the first place, Margaret felt guilty and ashamed of having grown so much into a woman as to be thought of in marriage..."

Therein lies the problem :D"
Exactly! She still wanted to be a child for awhile, not a woman. It's interesting, because in that era it was practically the sole thing a girl was trained to prepare for - marrying, and marrying as well as she could. Other girls her age would probably have their heads full of contemplating what her opportunities were for matrimony, who she knew that might make a good husband, etc. Not Margaret. She's tried to keep the whole subject out of mind.
I'll always respect and love Mr. Hale, even though he had his weaknesses - they were because he absolutely recoiled at the thought of causing anyone pain or distress. Was it right to foist the responsibility of telling Maria on Margaret? No, but I can sympathize with how his situation came about. He needed the space to make his own decisions without her griping and dramatics making him feel guilty about having religious convictions. He might have felt impelled to stay as minister if he had shared his doubts with his wife- just to please her. He needed the space to make his decision final all alone without interference. But then, when he did, he just couldn't bring himself to tell his wife. He knew the trauma it would cause her. Is it cowardly? Yes, I guess so, but I feel for him. He has such a strong desire to do both the right thing AND to make everyone happy - and sometimes you just can't do both.
I respect him (and Thornton does, as well) for having the strength of conviction to uproot his family, be disgraced and cause his family distress, based on an issue of personal, religious, and social integrity. How many others in his position would have just kept the job and kept up the charade?
His determination to think for himself and act accordingly, with individual conviction seems to me a model that Margaret follows. She certainly doesn't get her strength of character from her mother!

I feel the same way as you do about Mr. Hale, Trudy - sometimes I sound as if I'm being a little harsh on him, because it truly wasn't fair to Margaret to have to break the news to a mother and wife who should have been told a lot sooner.

But it takes a certain strength of character to be able to what he did, and though he makes mistakes sometimes, he is - as you say - the kind of person that wants to remain true to himself and keep everyone he loves happy. And certainly sometimes it would be hard to do both - especially when you are married to a woman like Mrs. Hale! But I love him for his endless kindness and the way he is so loving towards everyone, no matter who they are.

I also think it says something about Mr. Thornton that he has the sense to respect Mr. Hale for his intelligence, kindness and conviction. Mrs. Thornton seems to look down a little on the entire family, but John seems to understand instantly what a worthy companion and friend Mr. Hale could be.

I agree with you all regarding Mr Hale’s conduct towards his family, it is hard to respect such a man… except that I do respect his choice to step down from a position where to stay would be hypocritical, despite the consequences. I just don’t like how he handled it.

Margaret on the other hand shows a great deal of strength of character in dealing with everything, what would they have done without her?

I think the answer to that question is that Mr and Mrs Hale could not have gone on without Margaret. I'm not entirely sure that the two of them could have borne leaving Helstone without her, which is ironic in a way.

It does make you wonder how her parents managed without her for 10 years while she was in London!

I can see how Mr. Hale has some very good qualities, but for me those qualities are so much overshadowed by the weakness he shows that I have a hard time respecting him. I started out respecting Mrs. Hale even less, but that changes later in the book.

Everyone in the story has good and bad qualities, don't they? No all-black or all-white personalities here.

Well, aside from Frederick's mutiny, I don't think the Hale parents had many decisions or problems of moment to deal with while Margaret was away. It was just extremely unfortunate that Mr. Hales crisis of faith occurred almost the moment Margaret returned home, depriving her of the long-wished for opportunity to continue her beautiful childhood a while longer.

I can really see where you're coming from with your opinion on Mr. Hale, but I just find him so sweet and kind and intelligent I can't help but respect and like him. :)

Maybe I'm harsher because I'm viewing it in the context of him as a marriage partner. It would be difficult to be married to someone with almost no discernible ambition, and who punts on breaking bad news to his wife. Although Mrs. Hale may be in large part responsible for that part of his behavior. If she had proved herself to be more of a partner in their marriage, someone he could confide his troubles to, things might have been quite different.

But why should he be dissatisfied with his position in Helstone? He seemed to really love it. Margaret loved the life her father created for the family. It's only Mrs Hale who thinks higher recognition and a better income will somehow make her life better. Depends on what goals you have in life. Ambitions can take on different shapes. Some are more self-centered than others.
I'm harsh on Maria, but she did seem to take a real interest in the poor of the parish. I wonder why she couldn't have learned to love their life. Maybe the haughty upbringing made her feel entitled?
In all these characters, I love that Gaskell makes them real - faults and strengths.
I understand, too, that many have trouble sympathizing thoroughly with Mr Hale. And that's ok. We are attracted/repelled by different traits in people.

Actually all of this begs the question: what are Margaret's ambitions? And what will she want in a marriage partner?
Her hard experiences are giving her much to think about. And I feel like we know what she doesn't want.

That's a good way of putting it, Tadiana. :) Viewing Mr. Hale as a marriage partner I get extremely irritated with him, but viewing him as a person in his entirety, I sympathise with him and really do like him.

As to Trudy's comments; I think Maria's upbringing did play a part in her dissatisfaction with her life, but I also think it was just part of her personality. In terms of Margaret... I don't think she really had any ambitions, to be honest. First she had her life in London and she was clearly wanting to go home and be a child (i.e. without ambitions or expectations) for a little longer. Then life swept that opportunity away from her, and as you said, her hard experiences have not left her a lot of time to think about herself, or what she wants; we only know what she would rather not have.

Wow, what a discussion made of one little quote. I should do this more often....hm :D :D

LOL Samanta - well done! Maybe you should do it more often. :D

Deal! I find a great quote and you talk :D :D

:P

As a person I respect Mr Hale's decision, I think it is so honourable that he couldn't hypocritically continue as a clergyman. But, as a father he was wrong to put Margaret in the position of having to inform his wife of the decision he made that he knew would break her heart. If he was going to make the decision he should have told his wife. I can see why he didn't, but he doesn't consider Margaret's feelings at having to break such news and defend it to her mother, and he doesn't consider his wife's feelings in the insult of hearing it from a third party. Making Margaret break the news is only thinking of himself.

As regarding never getting promoted, that may have been selfish of him if he could have had promotion before his crisis. He knows what type of woman he married, he knows how she's missed out on things for more than twenty years. She missed her only niece's wedding because she didn't have a new dress so obviously these things really matter to her, and despite being a moaner she has put up with things for over two decades and has carried out her role in the parish. However, the impression is given that she was far happier before the situation with Frederick arose so maybe it was never that much of an issue before.

@Ceri - Mrs Hale wants the air she doesn't have, of course, whatever it may be like! She is one of those people, whatever somebody else has is better than whatever she has, she is the type of person who is incapable of being content, poor thing.

Yes I think that nails it and, Ceri, I think you are right that Mr. Hale realizes that his wife has been missing the finer things because of his lack of ambition and/or growing doubts. But he seems to have fallen into a habit of treating her as a sort of child or invalid to be wrapped in cotton wool, an approach which often reinforces exactly the wrong behavior.

Chapters 4 & 5 could serve as a manual on how to break bad news (and how not to).

When Mr. Hale departs the house to spend the day at Bracy Common (another cowardly dodge) he says he'll be back by seven. "Margaret knew what that meant. By seven the announcement must be made....Mr. Hale would have delayed...til half-past six, but Margaret was made of different stuff."

She breaks the news first thing in the morning when she sees her mother is "in a brisker mood than usual", giving her plenty of time to recover from the shock. She doesn't beat about the bush and says the "three hard facts" in two sentences. She concentrates on the basics, comforts her mother with hugs and caresses, and quickly finds that focusing on the practical details of the furniture removal helps her mother get over her distress.

A very wise young woman--at least in some things.

Hana wrote: "Chapters 4 & 5 could serve as a manual on how to break bad news (and how not to)."

Good one! :)

Margaret is very strong and that's why we admire her so much.

Trudy wrote: "Actually all of this begs the question: what are Margaret's ambitions? And what will she want in a marriage partner?
Her hard experiences are giving her much to think about."

Yes, exactly. Has she even thought it out? If she hasn't she seems extremely atypical--didn't most women of her class and generation hang everything on making the right match? Has she been so turned off by what she's seen at home and in London that she's bent on spinsterhood?

Staying home to take care of one's parents was a sort of 'career option' for women of that time, but is she consciously choosing that?

I remember Margaret told Henry what kind of wedding she would like to have so I guess that means she must have thought about getting arried

I think she'd been focussing so much on Edith, and getting Edith married off so she hadn't thought about herself at all in the long term. She was just thinking about getting back to Helstone and being a daughter again.

I think she thought of getting married 'one day' but was in no hurry.

She was atypical and she didn't reject the concept of marrying someday. I agree with Ceri in that she wasn't ready for thinking of all that just yet.
This time around, I really noticed how much Margaret felt her freedom fully in Helstone. "This life -- at least these walks -- realized all Margaret's anticipations. She took pride in her forest. It's people were her people. She made hearty friends with them; learned and delighted in using their particular words; took up her freedom amongst them...."
She's a people person , but not in the stilted London style -- she loves being helpful. And she loves nature. I think she feels confined in London with rules and schedules and propriety.
And she calls all these "farmers and labourers" her friends! No haughtiness in her relations to these simple people connected to the land.
The one quality she pinpoints as offensive to her in her condescension of tradesmen is that she feels they are full of pretense.
And what she doesn't like about Henry is his clever worldliness and sarcastic and light manner.
She likes people to be genuine and sincere.

I love how you expressed that, Trudy! Margaret is a people person, but while Londoners are quite superficial in their society, Margaret wants to meet and help people out of genuine kindness. It always makes me so sad to hear of all the people Margaret used to help, seeing her mourn the fact that they will miss her help.

Interesting question though: I agree that some tradesmen and masters are full of pretence, and she clearly thinks originally that Thornton is guilty of the same fault - how far is this true? For my part, I think the Thornton family is quite concerned with keeping up the appearance of power and wealth, but there is little pretence or insincerity present in John Thornton's actual character.

I think her prejudice is more like a London society prejudice of monied families against 'new money' where people pretend to be gentlemen but are actually tradesmen. Thornton is honestly a tradesman. I don't think she has any problem with him being a tradesmen as he is honest about it, but I think her problem with him is that she thinks he only cares about the money and doesn't see his employees as people who he has a moral duty to care for as people rather than as business assets.

It definitely could be that. Silly London snobs. :P

I don't really agree though - I think at least originally she looks down on Thornton as a tradesman, and as she becomes more acquainted with him that contempt evolves into a dislike based on his principles of dealing with workers. I mean, she is friends with the Higgins, who are less than tradespeople! Coming to Milton I think makes Margaret lose her old prejudices somewhat and replace them with new - but still related - prejudices.

When does she find out that he is without pretence? Isn't it the first time he comes to tea, their second meeting? I think she is just determined not to think well of him. At first she thinks he'll be full of pretence, then she thinks he is lacking in compassion because he judges people for not working as hard as he does, then she converts that into him not seeing his workers as people. She is very determined in her prejudice.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think that Thornton coming to tea with the Hales marks the change of Margaret's prejudice from "pretence" to "harsh and uncaring". I believe at that point she can respect John Thornton's strength of character and purpose, even while she entirely disagrees with his views. And she is indeed very determined, I think partly because of that confusing attraction between her and Thornton.