Reading the Chunksters discussion

Well! We are plunked right in the middle of the story, with Gwendolyn showing off her gambling (lack of) prowess and a mysterious stranger, Daniel Deronda, being featured. However, no sooner does our fair Gwendolen express an interest in DD than she is whisked back home due to the sudden destitution of her mother and aunt due to a failed business venture. Having lost most of the money she had on her in her gambling misfortune, she sells her necklace only to have it mysteriously returned to her before she returns home.

Once home at Offendene, we learn that Gwendolyn lives with her mother and four half-sisters, and that her stepfather Captain Davilow has died. We encounter Gwendolen's aunt and uncle, Mr. and Mrs. Gascoigne, and their children Anna and Rex. Somehow Gwen suckers her uncle into buying her a horse even though he wouldn't buy one for his own daughter. She is proud of her own singing at the Arrowpoint's party until Klesmer criticizes her skills. Mr. Middleton and Rex, however, both fawn over Gwendolen, but she isn't impressed with either. When Rex goes horseback riding with Gwen and he is injured, she barely bats an eyelash and rebuffs his expressions of love. At the conclusion of chapter 7, Gwen throws herself on her mother, saying she just can't bear anyone being near except her.


some preliminary thoughts -

gwendolyn is compared to a serpent - any idea why at this point?

we learn that gwendolen strangled her sister's canary - what???

gwendolen says that she plans to get married- but won't have a typical one and will do what she wants. Do you think this is possible for her?

what does it seem Gwendolen is seeking in life?

in what light does the author portray Gwendolen? Is she a sympathetic character?

why do you think Eliot began the story with the gambling bit featuring Daniel Deronda, only to quickly abandon that scene?

I've only read two chapters so far, but I love the character of Gwendolen - she is a very modern female protagonist for that time.

I think that Eliot doesn't portray her as the ultimate Austen heroine, but instead makes her flawed, and writes with sympathy for a reason. There's a dark side to the often idealized 1800s, especially for women, and the whole necklace affair and bankrupcy highlight that perfectly.

I love how vivid and detailed Eliot's writing is; the scenes are perfectly painted, the characters, the mood, the clothes, I can picture everything and that wasn't quite something I'd expect.

The serpent comparison - I hope that is going to be expanded and/or repeated later on. I just find it so fitting for the time, and it does somehow suit the proud, resourceful Gwendolen.

On to the next 5 chapters...

(By the way, I'm fifteen and English is my second language, so I apologize for the broken phrases - not much I can do about it right now, sadly.)

Konstantin wrote: "I've only read two chapters so far, but I love the character of Gwendolen - she is a very modern female protagonist for that time.

I think that Eliot doesn't portray her as the ultimate Austen he..."

konstantin, welcome and your contribution is very impressive, especially considering that english is your second language! I agree with your assessment that Gwen does not represent a typical heroine, and her flawed and complex nature are intriguing and leave the reader guessing about her future and whether she is a good person or destined to terrorize everyone around her. It is clear that she is spoiled and accustomed to attention, and believes that she is headed for a magnificent future due to her own... beauty? Or the fact that she has always been guided to believe that? At this point in the story she appears to me to be rather unlikable, but I am secretly hoping that with age and experience she will learn the folly of her ways and have the brilliant future she aspires to, one that bucks the stereotypes of the traditional married woman of that day and age.

Isn't the whole Offendene section a flashback to when the family first moved there ie it all happened *before* the opening gambling scene? I think that's quite a rare technique in nineteenth century fiction, it's far more akin to classical epic to start in medias res then go back to what led up to that start.

Konstantin, I was also thinking of Gwen as an anti-Austen heroine. Eliot flags our responses in some ways by calling this section 'The Spoilt Child': we feel there's a lot of growth and development to come.

Dianne wrote: "Well! We are plunked right in the middle of the story, with Gwendolyn showing off her gambling (lack of) prowess and a mysterious stranger, Daniel Deronda, being featured. However, no sooner does o..."

Great questions, much to think about.

I feel that Gwendolyn is as much a product of bad parenting as of her own willful nature. Her mother is too indulgent with her and her fathers were not there for her. I believe Eliot is painting Gwen as a tragic figure rather than a bad one. A woman who obviously has a degree of talent but is nevertheless viewed by most only in terms of her looks. What future is there for such a woman in the times she lived? A Greek goddess-like figure doomed to a tragic end as in all great Greek tragedy.

Comparison to a serpent? Well, such is seen as cold-blooded but also the serpent, or satan, was once the shining one before pride caused his fall and he became a creature on his belly in the dust. Gwen is indeed in appearance a shining one but her pride may cause a similar fall.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Isn't the whole Offendene section a flashback to when the family first moved there ie it all happened *before* the opening gambling scene? I think that's quite a rare technique in nineteenth centur..."

ah ha! I had not thought it was a flashback, because at the end of chapter 2 on her voyage home it is noted that "in this way it happened that Gwendolen never reappeared at the roulette-table, but that Thursday left Leubronn for Brussels, and on Saturday morning arrived at Offendene, the home to which she and her family were soon to say a last goodbye." But I think you may be right Roman Clodia - the transition to Offendene may not be her return but to set the stage for her return by giving some background about it.

It is interesting how Eliot casts aspersion on Gwen to start, yet she also seems poised for growth and development, and no doubt a unique future ahead of her.

Tracey wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Well! We are plunked right in the middle of the story, with Gwendolyn showing off her gambling (lack of) prowess and a mysterious stranger, Daniel Deronda, being featured. However, n..."

Great points Tracey. It is interesting how the mother shamed Gwen into never asking about her father, but aside from that one incident the mother really seems to cater to whatever Gwen wants. Perhaps she feels guilty about the introduction of the step-father. She does seem to be set up for a fall, will be interesting to see how she fares with her various suitors and ambitions.

That it's a flashback is told at the start of chapter 3 but I almost missed it and had to go back: 'It was only a year before her recall from Leubronn that Offendene had been chosen as her mama's home... and that Mrs Davilow, Gwen, and her four halfsisters...had been driven along the avenue for the first time'... and then we get their impressions of the new house. So this whole section of this week's reading takes place in the past, before the opening, and making Gwen a year younger than when we first see her.

This only adds to the suspense! So first we have the mysterious Daniel, and then we have to wait to find out how her homecoming is! The set up is rather brilliant.

I almost slipped by that sentence but thankfully didn't - yes, by the end of chapter three I'm certain we've seen no progress in Gwendolen's journey back to England.

The mention of the canary, however brief, was extremely interesting. Again I'd have to make a comparison, perhaps not with Austen - but with Gaskell, to who Eliot is a bit more similar in tone.

Gwen feels a sort of entitlement to her surrounding and actions; that sequence shows how impulsive she can be - yet in the very next paragraph she's buying a pet to her sister as an apology for the strangled bird. If I recall correctly, Eliot says something about her 'shallow pardoning', and, perhaps, a lack of ability to express herself emotionally - therefore doing it through money/things.

Mary Barton, Margaret Hale and Sylvia Robson of Gaskell aren't your typical 19th century heroines either, but I don't remember them going to such extremes as Gwendolen - BOTH in her resourcefulness (the necklace) and abrupt violence (the bird).

Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into it?

While we're chatting, what do y'all think of this image?



And, while I was searching, I found out D.D. has been memed:

Love it!

(On a side note - thanks for spoiling the ending to us all... 😂)

Konstantin wrote: "I almost slipped by that sentence but thankfully didn't - yes, by the end of chapter three I'm certain we've seen no progress in Gwendolen's journey back to England.

The mention of the canary, how..."

Pleased to see a Gaskell reader :)
There is a certain resourcefulness about Gwen that Gaskell's heroines have but they differ in other ways. Gaskell's stories are mainly of Northern England, in industrialized areas, and the people that live there, whereas Eliot is the more genteel members of society

I'd agree that her settings - the ones I've read - are harsher than this (especially the industrial ones) and I completely stand by what you said: Gaskell's heroines are feisty (the lenghts Margaret Hale would go!), but in a different way than this upper-middle class girl of Eliot's.

Now I'm interested in making a decades comparation between, say, Ruth & North and South on one side, and Deronda on the other.

The Victorians did change their style rather frequently.

In case anyone's interested:

Both Ruth and North and South were written and (supposedly) set in the 1850s, where as Daniel Deronda was published in the mid-1870s and set a decade earlier.

Knew there was a difference...

Starting with the gambling scene is an interesting choice - perhaps Eliot did it because it was the first meeting between Gwendolen and Daniel Deronda, and because it does establish their characters very early. Other reasons will become clear later (I read some way beyond this section over the weekend).

The gambling is such an arresting opening scene: how many Victorian heroines can we imagine in that setting?

Once we move back to Offendene the trajectory is more traditional with parlour games and concerns about good marriages... but this is Eliot who stretches the Victorian novel beyond the conventions and sets up scenarios only to overturn them later...

I love Gwen, such a fascinatingly flawed character.

Tracey wrote: " whereas Eliot is the more genteel members of society"

By birth, yes - but she also ostracised herself due to her long-term liaison with a married man. Perhaps this gave her an outsider's eye on society? I love the way she is both clear-sighted as a novelist while retaining her empathy for her characters - there's a rich sense of understanding that feeds into creating a character as complex and multi-layered as Gwen.

Konstantin wrote: "I've only read two chapters so far, but I love the character of Gwendolen - she is a very modern female protagonist for that time.

I think that Eliot doesn't portray her as the ultimate Austen he..."

I think you are doing a great job articulating your thoughts. Good job!

I am glad that you noticed it was a flashback. Did not see it at all. Very interesting. I also noticed the metaphor describing Gwendolen to a serpent - her green clothes and scarf especially. I love looking for symbolism so I am wondering if it connects to the killing of the canary. It shows she is mean spirited for sure. Gwendolen, because of her raising, expects everyone to spoil her or indulge her wishes including Rex. I hate how he was treated in chapter 7. She could have pretended that she was sorry for leaving him. But, then, that may be her saving grace - her brutal honesty.

What is the symbolism of the painted panel? I predict anguish of some sort for our main character who is not Daniel (that shocked me.)

Eliot also mentions Jews quite a bit in the first 7 chapters, including the stereotype that the lenders are Jewish when she pawns her necklace. Just my thoughts.

I have a theory about why she’s mentioning Jews but it’s too early to share!

I am really enjoying this novel and like you all I love how she’s set up the plot.

I really don’t like the character Gwendolin, but it’s likely she’ll improve her ways by the end of the novel.

As for the canary I agree with what was said about how it revealed aspects of Gwen’s character but it also reveals the ‘weakness’ of her sisters, and mother. I’m glad she’s determined not to be like them. It’s quite a feminist attitude and I wonder if it would have been as accepted when it was first published if she hadn’t used her pen-name. I’ll have to research if her identity was widely known by then...

I’ve read a bit further ahead and I’m looking forward to reading the rest.

I don't like Gwendolyn either, but I'm hoping that will change. Otherwise, this book will feel longer than it is. I did catch that it was a flashback. She certainly hasn't grown as a person in the last year, but maybe she will later in the novel (after we get back to the "current" time).

I'm not sure, but perhaps the opening is a flashforward, which might make the "flashback" "current".
Or else Eliot is playing around with us, more pre-modern and less post-Victorian.

It is the third chapter onwards that is the flashback, and we are at the end of part two, nearly 200 pages later, by the time it finishes. So a very extended one!

Dan wrote: "I'm not sure, but perhaps the opening is a flashforward, which might make the "flashback" "current".
Or else Eliot is playing around with us, more pre-modern and less post-Victorian."

I am confused. It seems to me either the gambling scene has to happen first or second from the hunt and archery events. I don't see how the gambling could happen first because when it starts talking about Offendene, there is no talk of ruin but just talk of being new to the area.

Maybe that is what you are saying.

In the second paragraph of chapter 3, it states, "It was only a year before her recall from Leubronn that Offendene had been chosen as her mamma's home . . ."

If it makes it less confusing to you, think of the part from chapter 3 on to the part where it gets back to the gambling to be Gwendolen reminiscing about the last year of her life while she is traveling home (even though it is basically the narrator giving us the backstory). It is framed as a flashback, especially since it starts by telling us that the next part is in the past, and her getting called home is basically "today." I have not read ahead, so maybe the framing will change later.

Most current authors would have put the first two chapters into a prologue if they were going to do this kind of framing, but that is not how this author did it.

The family moved into Offendene in October and the first 2 chapters are in September the year after.

Christopher wrote: "While we're chatting, what do y'all think of this image?



And, while I was searching, I found out D.D. has been memed:

"

these are great, thank you!

Konstantin wrote: "In case anyone's interested:

Both Ruth and North and South were written and (supposedly) set in the 1850s, where as Daniel Deronda was published in the mid-1870s and set a decade earlier.

Knew th..."

thanks Konstantin!

Hugh wrote: "Starting with the gambling scene is an interesting choice - perhaps Eliot did it because it was the first meeting between Gwendolen and Daniel Deronda, and because it does establish their character..."

its was an interesting technique, and makes you want to rush ahead to see what happened between them later - and you know something did because of the title!

Roman Clodia wrote: "The gambling is such an arresting opening scene: how many Victorian heroines can we imagine in that setting?

Once we move back to Offendene the trajectory is more traditional with parlour games a..."

the way she keeps betting as she loses more and more - says so much about her character! Stubborn, defiant, opinionated, prideful.

I'm so glad I popped in here to see the note about the flashback - I listed to the audio version for the first couple of chapters and missed that. Something wasn't feeling right... Now i'm on track and reading the paper book until I'm more firmly grounded in these characters and their story.

Dianne wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "The gambling is such an arresting opening scene: how many Victorian heroines can we imagine in that setting?

Once we move back to Offendene the trajectory is more traditional..."

Indeed. Gwen is more concerned with appearance than with actual truth. The issue over the necklace also demonstrates this.

I'll admit that I also missed the fact that the time at Offendene is a flashback, but it certainly explains quite a few things. I couldn't figure out how a girl who's family was just "ruined" could immediately demand a horse.

Gwendolen irks me at the moment - she's been spoiled by her family, and I get the impression that she's not nearly as interesting as she thinks she is.

I finally have my copy and have had a chance to read the first seven chapters. Similarly to others, I missed the little crucial sentence that indicated that we were going back in time at Offendene. So I popped in here and read just enough to know it was a flashback as it wasn't making sense to me either until I knew that.

I agree that Gwedolen is not very likable at this stage. Spoiled, indeed! She seems largely unable to see beyond herself, unless she knows she has gone way too far (the canary incident). Spirited and resourceful can lead to a fascinating character as long as we see Gwendolen move beyond so much selfish self-interest. Or maybe that will be her tragic undoing!

I love that Elliot started with the gambling scene as it has certainly made me intrigued to know what happens in the book rather than starting with Offendene which seems to be filling in details to build characters etc rather than building interesting plotlines.

Quite a few of us missed the fact that this was a flashback. I wonder if contemporary readers had the same trouble, and if so, whether the effect was intentional.

Jen wrote: "I'm so glad I popped in here to see the note about the flashback - I listed to the audio version for the first couple of chapters and missed that. Something wasn't feeling right... Now i'm on track..."

I think this would be tough to follow on audio - at least some of the more subtle nuances!

Tracey wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "The gambling is such an arresting opening scene: how many Victorian heroines can we imagine in that setting?

Once we move back to Offendene the trajectory is m..."

It is interesting - on the one hand Gwen is a creature of her own mind and indifferent to the opinion of others - she will do her own thing come hell or high water! However, she also has this consciousness of the perception of others and it is important to her to be held in high esteem - to her, that is part of her identity.

Lauren wrote: "I'll admit that I also missed the fact that the time at Offendene is a flashback, but it certainly explains quite a few things. I couldn't figure out how a girl who's family was just "ruined" could..."

ha good point! I am still surprised that they indulged her with that!

Bron wrote: "I finally have my copy and have had a chance to read the first seven chapters. Similarly to others, I missed the little crucial sentence that indicated that we were going back in time at Offendene...."

welcome Bron! I agree with you about the beginning, and I really find this novel so much more engaging than Middlemarch - there is much intrigue!

Lauren wrote: "Quite a few of us missed the fact that this was a flashback. I wonder if contemporary readers had the same trouble, and if so, whether the effect was intentional."

thank you to those who admitted that they missed this like me! And thanks to Roman Clodia for pointing it out! I guess it would have become obvious as you read along, but it really puts so much of the story in context at this stage.

I'm late to the party, but just finished the first 7 chapters and read the thread. I'm so glad I did because I, too, missed the flashback. I realize it wasn't really bothering me in my reading of the book, which I am really enjoying, but it certainly makes more sense. I loved the opening scene and wrote this before coming to the thread:

I found the opening chapter engaging and unexpected. I am skittish about possible spoilers, and have only read Eliot’s Middlemarch and Silas Marner, so an opening chapter all about gambling pulled me in right away.
I find Gwendolen an interesting character and not at all the kind of heroine I expected. I noted these two quotes:
Iridescence of her character (p36) I love the word "iridescence" here!
We cannot speak a loyal word and be meanly silent, we cannot kill and not kill in the same moment; but a moment is room wide enough for the loyal and mean desire, for the outlash of a murderous thought and the sharp backward stroke of repentance. (p37)

I didn’t really take to Gwendolyn upon first meeting her in the gambling hall, the description of her snake-like accoutrement and physical aesthetics being the most noteworthy characteristic about her. While the symbolism of a snake is easily attributed to the evil nature of people or things, and the temptation aspect (good ol’ Garden of Eden :); I also thought it was a foreshadowing to a potential violent side of her nature; ergo, sister’s canary. What kind of person kills an animal in a fit of rage…It’s unnatural, to say the least?

After reading chapter 3, I went back to read chapter 1 again, only to find that Eliot writes about Gwendolyn in terms of a serpent in its habitat even before she is directly referred to as one…

Since she was not winning strikingly, the next best thing was to lose strikingly. She controlled her muscles, and showed no tremor of mouth or hands…Many were now watching her, but the sole observation she was conscious of was Deronda’s, who, though she never looked towards him, she was sure he had not moved away (11).

She’s calculating and driven in this scene; she’s acutely aware of her surroundings and knows where her prey sits; she instills both fear and intrigue in those who look upon her, she is captivating and unsettling all at the same time. It’s exactly as Deronda himself ponders in those memorable first words that start this novel,

Was she beautiful or not beautiful? and was the secret of form or expression which gave the dynamic quality to her glance? Was the good or the evil genius dominant in those beams? Probably the evil; else why was the effect of unrest rather than of undisturbed charm (7)?

This was only my second Eliot novel read, Middlemarch being the first, but I made note of a common theme surfacing its head early in these chapters…the oppression of women by the patriarchy. Gwendolyn’s outlook on marriage, referring to it as a vexation of necessities, was not something I was expecting of her and a welcoming surprise. While marriage is an obligation in her eyes, she still revels in the idea of being pursued by her suitors. There’s a callousness about her that I don’t know if I would attribute to her age and inexperience in dealing with matters of the heart, or that she’s incapable of understanding empathy. By the end of Book 1, Gwendolyn reminded me of both Dorothy Middlemarch (good) and Rosamund Vincy (evil); she’s extremely flawed, and so much fun to read about.

Oh. Poor, Rex. SMH!

Interesting thoughts. I hadn’t thought of Gwendolens behaviour this way. I agree she is calculating but I see her more as a woman aware that she is judged by everything she does in public and has learnt to not disclose what she perceives detrimental to her rather than predatory.

Tracey wrote: "Interesting thoughts. I hadn’t thought of Gwendolens behaviour this way. I agree she is calculating but I see her more as a woman aware that she is judged by everything she does in public and has l..."

Absolutely, she’s aware of her freedoms as an unmarried woman; however, I also took into account human nature, which encompasses both good and bad, and she personified this for me. As far as predatory, my thoughts were consumed by her acute sense for her environment and the potential of her temperament to boil over. The canary episode, gunning for both Grandcourt and ever so coyly for Deronda, were also key to my drawing her in this manner.