North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[Mr. Thornton and Margaret experience their first clash of their two different backgrounds, in a spirited exchange of conflicting opinions, before Margaret unwittingly offends the mill owner by refusing to take his hand. Margaret learns of John Thornton's past sufferings, and is encountered with more suffering upon her visit to the Higgins' house. Finally, in Chapter Twelve, Mrs. Thornton and her daughter Fanny call on Mrs. Hale and Margaret at John's request. (hide spoiler)]

I like the description of Thornton's face and smile in chapter 10. There's also an interesting debate between them on capitalism and classes in society in this chapter.

I found it amusing how John and Margaret think of each other:

Him: 'A more proud, disagreeable girl I never saw. Even her great beauty is blotted out of one's memory by her scornful ways.'

Calling her a "great beauty" gives the lie to his irritation, which comes from her not noticing him as he did, I think.

Her: 'That really is fine,' said Margaret. 'What a pity such a nature should be tainted by his position as a Milton manufacturer.'

I do hope this improves the longer Margaret gets to know the industrial town and their entrepreneurial population, because her deep-seated classism is starting to be jarring to me.

On the other hand, the parents are also on opposite sides: Mr Hale has a very favourable opinion of Thornton and defends him to Margaret, but Mrs Thornton is wary of Margaret and has too quickly put her in the "potential gold-digger" box.

Funny how Margaret is so freindly with the Higginses but uses her, as you put it, deep-seated classism when it comes to Thornton.

Oh, yes. With the Higginses, I'd say her motivation is also the compassion for the sickly Bessy. The girl's condition sort of predisposes her to be friendlier, and also the Higginses are plain labourers, in a position different to Thornton.

Oh, Margaret is in for an education of a lifetime, I think. :)

Samanta wrote: "Funny how Margaret is so freindly with the Higginses but uses her, as you put it, deep-seated classism when it comes to Thornton."

Yeah, the Higginses are not a threat to Margaret's Weltanschauung (world view, sorry, I love this German word). It's like the lady of the manor taking baskets of food to the villagers. Thornton is a threat, so she's predisposed against him, plus she's getting an earful of Nicholas Higgins' very biased views. But sooner or later Margaret's prejudices are really going to trip her up, probably in a very embarrassing way.

Thornton isn't without blinders either. I think he's more open-minded than Margaret, but his views regarding his workers often grate.

Agreed. Thornton's views stem from his self-made man ethos: if I was able to get rich, everyone can. And he measures other people according to this worldview. To me, what this makes more sense than Margaret's blinders, it's a philosophy that comes from having to rise from the slums to the top. Yet I do believe that he also tends to ignore the circumstances that play into the equation, for even if he rose high, there are people that may work as hard or harder but won't rise so high.

So both have still some things to learn. Both are quick to judge, she a little more than him perhaps because of her more sheltered life and the fact that she hasn't had to work for her bread and hasn't known misery even if she's poor. And he is touchy, too conscious of his deficiencies in refinement, which drive his assumptions that Margaret dislikes him for being a trader.

I so like those storylines in which the main characters get to influence each other's worldviews in a positive manner. :)

Good analysis, Marquise. I love chatting about books with you ladies! All of your insights really help me appreciate the book we're reading a lot more.

Thank you, Tadiana, I second your sentiments.

Well, I'm not quite up to here yet, but from what I remember of the novel, that is a perfect analysis, Marquise. :) Both Margaret and Thornton are blinkered, but Margaret much more so than Thornton. I find it interesting that while their cultural differences are what cause the tension between the two of them, their backgrounds and upbringings exacerbate those differences. Thornton - as Marquise said - tends to ignore other circumstances that play into individual lives.

But he is also very aware of his deficiencies, which makes him defensive, especially when coming into contact with Margaret, who tends to throw into sharp relief every flaw that John perceives in himself. As a result he is especially defensive with her, and therefore careful to back up his own views with strong and well considered arguments. Margaret tends to seem a bit more irrational to the reader because she has not suffered as Thornton has, and her own defensiveness comes from her fierce love for Helstone and the South, along with her impulsive (and of course admirable) sympathy and kindness towards the workers.

Also, I agree with the two of you - it's so amazing talking to all of you while reading the book! It adds so much more to the experience. :)

When I first read the book, I remembered Margaret's compassion for Bessy as being more dutiful, born out of charity and her role as a clergyman's daughter, but now I am rereading and I see Margaret as very lonely and lost. Her first impulse might be charity but I think she longs for a friend and here is one ready to accept her. In Bessy she learns what suffering really means and from Higgins she learns to look at the world more broadly. She's still snotty towards Thornton at times.

Thornton really annoyed me with his paternalistic view of management. In Library school we talked a lot about management and management types. Thornton's view is very in line with the time period but I think he's wrong about so many things. He wasn't living in poverty to begin with. He had the benefit of a gentleman's education (despite it being aborted), his mother has some assets of her own so I am sure that helped open doors for him. If he was a common worker without much education, I doubt that he would be so successful. He doesn't think about the workers living on a less-than-liveable wage. They're poorly educated, poorly paid and struggling to live. Bessy says she couldn't teach her sister how to properly care for the house when she was never taught. I think it's the same with men. They weren't able to have the opportunity to go to school and apprentice and pull themselves up. Thornton is acting like Margaret here.

Mrs. Thornton is too obsessed with her son. In that respect she's just like Mrs. Hale! I like how Margaret laughs at the idea that she's on the catch for a husband and women throw themselves at Thornton.

Mrs Thorton reminds me of Lady Catherine in Pride & Prejudice when she says what are you saying of me Miss Hale may I inquire. Margaret & Mr Thorton are a lot alike she is prejudiced against trademen the same way he is prejudiced against his workers. I wonder if Mr Thorton has only recently just paided off his fathers debts & that is why he is just starting to make time for himself.

These are such an interesting few chapters because they continually misunderstand each other. Margaret sees Thornton as only valuing money which isn't quite fair - as somebody who has felt the pain of being both poor and in debt money is of course important to him, but I think his love of industry and progress is partly pride in his town and the impressiveness of new technology. I do think he is lacking in compassion though, he sees workers as wasting their money but he doesn't take into account all the things that assisted him in doing so well. Firstly, he was assisted by his mother, who is a formidable assistant and capable of severe self-denial, much like Thornton himself. He also couldn't have managed so well without contacts through his late father's business, which the ordinary working man couldn't have made.

Margaret is also misunderstood by Thornton. She is proud, but doesn't look down on him as much as he thinks. I was glad that she qualified her comment on 'shoppy' people, saying that it was their pretence that she objected to.

Both of them seem to be able to make the other feel deficient in some way without meaning to, which just goes to show that they want the other to think well of them.

I loved the description of Thornton's smile :) I also though it was significant that Margaret acknowledges something between she and Thornton, though she puts it down to the contradictions in character rather than anything else "the attraction they evidently felt towards each other". They are both really quite fascinated with each other.

Re. the Higgins family, I think Tadania is right, they are seemingly unthreatening to Margaret's view of herself. The poor girl is also very lonely, and unappreciated at home too as Qnpoohbear says. To be wanted is a nice change for her.

I have a soft spot for Mrs Thornton,her love and pride in her son is immense though I would not like her as a mother in law one bit, nobody would be good enough for her son! She is very wary of Margaret because she sees that despite what he says, John is interested in her.

Ceri wrote: "I would not like her as a mother in law one bit, nobody would be good enough for her son! "

I've been thinking the same thing: Mrs. Thornton would be a bear of a MIL. And she'll almost certainly live in the same town as her son for the rest of her life, if not the same house. Can you imagine having her breathing down your neck every time you turned around? Lol.

Hehe! I think in time she could come to love a daughter in law, particularly if she had a lot of strong, admirable characteristics, the type that Mrs Thornton wishes that Fanny possessed. Especially once there are grandchildren. I think any new Mrs Thornton would need her own sitting room though and it would be quite a period of change after the wedding!

Mrs. Thornton explains her feelings on her son and potential daughter-in-law in a later chapter. She does feel threatened and fears being replaced but as Ceri said, she thinks she could love a woman her son loves if she has admirable qualities.

Ceri wrote: "Hehe! I think in time she could come to love a daughter in law, particularly if she had a lot of strong, admirable characteristics, the type that Mrs Thornton wishes that Fanny possessed. Especiall..."

I think Trudy addresses this issue brilliantly in one of her books, though I can't remember which. :) I do think Mrs. Thornton could learn to love an admirable daughter in law, though she would find it hard at first not to be the first woman within her sons heart.

Nice analysis, I don't really have anything to add other than I don't think I'd particularly want to make a friend of Mrs Thornton or Fanny. Even understanding their backgrounds they grate on me.

Fair enough! I think I could bear to be a friend of Mrs. Thornton, but Fanny would irritate me, much as I would try to bear with her patiently.

Just finished reading Chapter 10. I love how Gaskell describes Mr. Thornton seen through Margaret's eyes and that last sentence saying that it shower the attraction they felt for each other. So Gaskell intended for Margaret to be attracted to Thornton from the beginning but you can't see that in the series. Goes to show that you can't beat good old-fashion book no matter how good the adaptation is.

Thornton's facination with the movement of Margaret's bracelet...adorable :)

Chapter 12...on Mrs. Thornton's social calls:

"She had had horses for three days, not a fortnight before,and had comfortably 'killed off' all her acquaintances, who might now put themselves to trouble and expense in their turn."

LOL

Samanta wrote: "Chapter 12...on Mrs. Thornton's social calls:

"She had had horses for three days, not a fortnight before,and had comfortably 'killed off' all her acquaintances, who might now put themselves ..."

That shows what a proud woman she is. She was determined to call on people no matter what and now she's done HER duty, it's up to them to act accordingly. SHE knows her etiquette.

And she doesn't enjoy doing it! But she does it anyway.

Samanta wrote: "Thornton's facination with the movement of Margaret's bracelet...adorable :) "

That was so wonderful--he can't take his eyes off her. And the way he watched her father do that cute little thing, taking her fingers in his and making them into sugar tongs:) A lot of intensity, controlled longing, and passion. Whew! *fans self*

I wonder why they didn't show those scenes in the movie.

Hana wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Thornton's facination with the movement of Margaret's bracelet...adorable :) "

That was so wonderful--he can't take his eyes off her. And the way he watched her father do that cut..."

I love that little part about Thornton watching Margaret push the bracelet up - it was so cute and adorable. <3

@ Nancy: I know Mr Hale didn't do that little sugar-tong thing in the movie (which was cute, but I'm also kind of glad they left it out, because it was a bit odd...) at the very least Margaret was wearing a bracelet, and the camera did focus on Margaret's hands and on Thornton watching her for a few moments. :)

Becca wrote: "at the very least Margaret was wearing a bracelet, and the camera did focus on Margaret's hands and on Thornton watching her for a few moments. :) "

Oh, yes, I remember that but never connected it with this. Good thing we started this group read. Too much time has passed since reading the book last.

In the mini-series they keep looking at each other and when one turns to notice, the other turns their head. I love the way Thornton sees Margaret as beautiful. She's not a conventional beauty like Edith but to him, she is. He can't take his eyes off her. Cue the wrath of Mrs. Thornton!

Qnpoohbear wrote: "In the mini-series they keep looking at each other and when one turns to notice, the other turns their head. I love the way Thornton sees Margaret as beautiful. She's not a conventional beauty like..."

Yes, I love that too. :) I love reading all the different details about what Thornton's noticing in Margaret's appearance - Gaskell's descriptions of his impressions are so detailed!

"Cue the wrath of Mrs. Thornton!"

:D *rolling on the floor laughing*... So true!

Qnpoohbear wrote: "She's not a conventional beauty like Edith but to him, she is."


Honestly, I think she is more beautiful than Edith.

I think it's interesting that she's not admired down in the South but she is in the North. We are told that her features are too large for beauty, it's mentioned that the Hales are attractive and she is less so, and comparison is made with Edith's tiny features and doll-like beauty but then she goes to the North where Thornton isn't the only person who thinks she's beautiful. She's admired by the Higginses and at Thornton's dinner party too. I wonder if Gaskell does this to make another distinction between North and South, the preference for something stronger and more vivid in the North maybe?

Ceri, that is a great point: "the preference for something stronger and more vivid"! Perfect.

I love that thought!

Hana wrote: "Ceri, that is a great point: "the preference for something stronger and more vivid"! Perfect."

I think this is a very interesting observation. It also says what northerners expect from their women. Margaret is strong and she's healthy and not some shrinking violet too prissy to do anything. I think Mrs. Thornton's opinion of Mrs. Hale reflects that ideal also.

Interesting the different observations of Margaret and her mother of Thornton´s having been a shop boy. Mrs. Hale is repelled by the fact while Margaret thinks positively about it. She only finds Thornton "tainted" by wealth, however you may understand that. It doesn´t seem to me that he sees things under that sign.

@Michaela It's Margaret's assumption that tradesman are only about the money. She assumes Thornton's life focus is about producing wealth. (A favorite line of mine toward the end of the book goes a long way to overturn her prejudice.) It seems a rather ridiculous condemnation of the rising industrial middle class (Thornton) to emphasize that their production of products builds them wealth. That's not commendable, but doing absolutely nothing productive and enjoying luxury gained from old money or peasant rents is to be revered?!
And she hold all her sympathy for the poor struggling workers, while knowing virtually nothing of the complexities and realities of running a business.
I'm impressed in this chapter that Thornton is so calmly civil with her. Margaret is definitely the rude and ignorant one in their first argument.
But I do note that Margaret has had to put up a brave front for months and had cleaned house all day and had a headache at this scene. It seems part of her vehemence was letting out some steam - poor Mr. Thornton!
@Ceri Fantastic observation of the difference in beauty. The pale, delicate beauty so emulated in the South may not be as valued as a stronger, vibrant beauty in the North. All the passing workers were also commenting, to her discomfiture, on her 'bonny face.' And I'd forgotten that she was admired, too, at the dinner party. I think it's safe to say that Margaret isn't plain.

Thanks Trudy for the explanation! I agree about the difference between money earned by doing something productive and by doing nothing and living from an inheritance. Also her pity for the workers, but no understanding for the businessmen. If I remember correctly Thornton says nice words (to himself) about her beauty, but finds her proud and scornful.

I agree with so much of what you say Trudy! Her manners towards him have been pretty prejudiced and rude so far, and although she has a point (not sure if it's in these exact chapters or not) regarding his lack of compassion towards the workers he has been very forgiving of both her attitude and position of wilful ignorance

@Qnpoohbear Good point about the northern ideal of beauty and strength. Mrs Thornton looks down on weakness - both of character and physical frailty. She's ashamed of her own daughter (Fanny really belongs in the South, don't you think?) and remarks with what seems like some condescension on Maria's frail appearance, as if that's just what she'd expect from someone from the South. Hearty constitutions and strong, independent characters are what are valued in the industrial North. What the reader can discern that Hannah can't yet is that this proud matriarch admires exactly the qualities that Margaret embodies!

I just finished these three short chapters. I'm enjoying going through each chapter slowly - I'm taking notes along the way on certain things.
@Ceri and Samanta -- The phrase about "the attraction they evidently felt toward the other" follows a long description of the contrast between Mr. Hale and John. I think Gaskell is remarking on the attraction between these two men, who seem so different on the outside. (It's a really sweet relationship between these two. Hale would have loved to have John as a son-in-law!)
I like how John assess the Hale home. (Aha! Maybe he truly hasn't been there before this evening.) It's such a stark contrast to the way Henry gazed over the parsonage, noting that things looked a little threadbare. Mr. Thornton loves the warm, lived-in way the house feels, with things of life about. He's hankering for a warmer home, I feel. (Hmm...with Margaret in it, maybe?)
And he's waited months to check out Margaret again. It's no wonder he can't take his eyes off her.
The bracelet description is very tactile, and so is his longing to use her hands as sugar-tongs.
I really love this line, it tells so much of what maybe is missing in John's life ... "Mr. Thornton saw her beautiful eyes lifted to her father, full of light, half-laughter and half-love, as this bit of pantomime went on between the two ... "
Oh, and I caught that Margaret was a little feisty at the end of Mrs. Thornton's visit. Margaret answered Hannahs question by saying she hadn't seen any of the factories, but then she decided to add (telling herself it was only honest) that she didn't care to. That didn't go over well with Hannah. tsk-tsk

D'oh I must have misinterpreted that.

It hadn't occurred to me how differently Thornton sees their home compared to. Henry, that's a really good observation. It's ironic really, Margaret thinks that Thornton only cares for money but the things he values in their home have nothing whatsoever to do with money, I think the poor man definitely hankers after a warmer home. I was going to say warmer and more loving but it's not really fair to Mrs Thornton to say their home is lacking in love, as her son is her everything, rather that her love for him is quite repressed really, she keeps it all locked up inside her. He knows it's there and that is enough for them but I think he'd like some affection and some warmth in his home too, something softer. I am having a hard time pinning down the thought flitting through my head here, I hope I've managed to convey my meaning!

No, that's perfect really. These are the things that are hard to articulate - but they have very deep meaning in our human longing: touch, affection, belonging, home, purpose. I like watching for what both of the main characters are longing for.
Both Margaret and Thornton have some pretty deep longings (John's are developing as the story unfolds) that they bravely keep to themselves as they continue their regular routine, or fight to support their families. They're both lonely to a some degree, although they're both valued in their families.

When's the last time the Master has had a hug? I don't think mother Thornton is the touchy-feels type! No bedtime hugs and kisses...

Bless him!

Good point Trudy! Both Margaret and John aren´t used to tenderness from their family. I wonder if that´s the reason for their fight with words?

I'm with Hana and Samanta - whoo, is that bracelet thing sexy! I never noticed it before this read but it's the tracing of it up and down her arm and his desire to remark on it falling again...and imagining RA-as-Mr.T-eyes! Oh my.

I was struck by the comparison of M's conversation with Thornton vs her conversation with Henry. Both men have bothered her by misrepresenting her home (Margaret, so loyal to home) but with Henry it is irritation while with John she assumes him to be really mistaken. You can see she likes him enough to correct him thoroughly. And you can see John is as loyal to home as she is - he can't bear to admit workers might not all have the options available to him or that they might be unhappy by virtue of their toil - they must be unhappy because of some personal lack of virtue. I think it is Gaskell's attention to issues of class, capitalism, and happiness that make this book a classic. We are certainly still debating how fluidly we can change class in our society and the rights of workers, the role of unions and the place of the state in ensuring happiness, regulation and deregulation, etc.

Yes, that's what makes N&S a fascinating and relevant read. The issues her characters wrestle with - both individually and in social spheres - are still with us today and are just as integral to humanity's quest for purpose, place, and peace. The romance amplifies all the conflicting ideals or modes of thought coming to head in that age.
I'm always enthralled with this book. Beyond loving the romance to pieces, it's a book to make you think about how society should or shouldn't be constructed - how we treat each other as people and what value each individual might have.
I often wonder why Gaskell isn't more widely read as classic literature.

Trudy wrote: "I often wonder why Gaskell isn't more widely read as classic literature. "

She died youngish/middle age and was a woman. Outside of women's fiction classes, the literary canon doesn't include many women. Even when I was studying literature in college, the department was mostly older, white men with a few women, one Asian and by the time I left, an African-American man teaching African-American literature. Hopefully this is changing and Gaskell will be rediscovered.

But Austen and Bronte also died fairly young. It's just really curious why Gaskell's work fell into obscurity. Overshadowed by Dickens? I know that her critics (male, of course) didn't think she had any credibility to speak on issues of economics, business, etc. Perhaps she couldn't be granted much weight on 'serious' issues that only men were supposed to understand.