North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[A police inspector visits to inquire about the nature of the events surrounding the death of Leonards, who died after the altercation with Frederick. Margaret is forced to lie to the police inspector, and Mr. Thornton quickly discovers her deception when he encounters the inspector. John eventually decides to help Margaret cover up her secret, despite his indignation. Margaret consequently begins to re-examine her feelings for him, realising how deeply she is indebted to him for helping her conceal Frederick's presence, though he can have no idea who the young man was that he saw her embracing at the station. Miss Hale and her father visit Mr. Higgins, and immediately after their discussion about Boucher they discover that the man has killed himself. (hide spoiler)]

Margaret finally cracks. I'm glad she has a chink in her armor. I like how she summoned up all her haughtiness to use on the inspector though she was shaking inside. It really shows her strength of character. When she breaks down and cries finally, my heart went out to her. She's been under so much stress and she doesn't have anyone to help her. She needs John! He's a little too noble in these chapters but I admire him for what he does for Margaret.

The discussion of the unions and how the unions actually do more harm than good is very interesting. It's food for thought.

Ahh Boucher. He was a spineless, gutless, weak man yet his family was suffering. He didn't deserve to be blackballed. His family needs him.

At least Margaret is coming to a realisation of Thornton’s merits and her own regard for him, but still she is the one who has to be brave and strong. What Thornton does for her is perhaps more than she deserves from him but it shows the sort of man he is and his feelings for her.

I think Margaret has a point about the union but ultimately Higgins is not wrong either, where Thornton might deal fairly with his workers, not all the masters do and what come back do they have other than the strength of the union?

Chapter 35: "Mr. Thornton, above all people, on whom she had looked down from her imaginary heights till now! She suddenly found herself at his feet, and was strangely distressed at her fall. She shrank from following out the premises to their conclusion, and so acknowledging to herself how much she valued his respect and good opinion."

So now it's clear we have both Thornton and Margaret lying to themselves. :) it is interesting, though, that Margaret does seem to be acknowledging to herself that her perceived superiority to Thornton was only imaginary.

For those who don't speak French: "fais ce que dois, advienne que pourra" = "do what you must, come what may." (According to Google Translate)

'Pride goeth before the fall'--poor Margaret!

I was touched by how close Thornton and Mr. Hale have become. 'Mr. Thornton had power...to make him unlock the secret thoughts which he kept shut up even from Margaret.' and the 'Mr. Thornton's two or three words would complete the sentence, and show how deeply its meaning was entered into.'

One of the saddest aspects of the Margaret-Thornton misunderstandings is the rift it causes in this beautiful and much-needed friendship between two rather lonely men.

Hana wrote: "One of the saddest aspects of the Margaret-Thornton misunderstandings is the rift it causes in this beautiful and much-needed friendship between two rather lonely men. "

This is so true. They needed that friendship and Mr. Hale just sort of withered up between his wife's death and the loss of his friend. He turned to Mr. Bell, but Bell isn't a deep thinker or a sympathetic kind of person.

Ch. 36: Margaret has a gift for telling men unpleasant truths--and for pushing them to do something about it. "Higgins, I don't know you today. Don't you see how you've made Boucher what he is, by driving him into the Union against his will--without his heart going with it. You have made him what he is!"

Hana wrote: "Ch. 36: Margaret has a gift for telling men unpleasant truths--and for pushing them to do something about it. "Higgins, I don't know you today. Don't you see how you've made Boucher what he is, by ..."

She really does push the men in this story. Could be why Gaskell isn't more widely read!

I admire Mr Thorton here for helping Margaret a lesser man would have seen this as a chance to seek revenge.

From the Oxford World's Classics edition:
Thornton is conflicted about Margaret. The fact she lied to the police is not as important as the thought that she might be unmaidenly. (xxxi)

Boucher’s death symbolizes “the politics of scarcity and the unnatural life forms created by industrialism.” His first act of self-control was one of self-destruction. Margaret again rises to the occasion while her father exhibits womanly characteristics. She also exhibits qualities of selflessness and self-control. She’s a parallel to Higgins who combines “masculine command with maternal care.”(xxxi)

You know what?! This "womanly characteristics" are really starting to get on my nerves. And I better stop and calm down before I work myself up in an overly feminist outrage. :/
When my mom died, my stepdad burst to tears the minute he saw me entering the house (I look a lot like her) and he didn't even have the courage to tell his daughter that her mother had died and I had to do it.
Men are just as much sensitive as we are and more cowardly in certain situations so ascribing "womanly characteristics" to a man when he is being sensitive and a coward (becase that is what Mr. Hale was when he didn't have the courage to tell his wife) is just a plain degradation of women. Being strong physicaly does not mean anything. Try being emotionally strong for everybody else when your heart is breaking to pieces. :/

Ok, I guess I did not manage to calm down. Sorry, ladies! :)

Samanta wrote: "You know what?! This "womanly characteristics" are really starting to get on my nerves. And I better stop and calm down before I work myself up in an overly feminist outrage. :/
When my mom died, ..."

I completely understand you, Samanta! It sort of irritates me too. But I think that if people refer to femininity and womanly characteristics when analysing N&S, they are generally trying to identify with the general view of society at the time. Of course, even back then there were probably people who wouldn't agree with such strict judgements based on gender - Thornton didn't seem to think it un-maidenly or unworthy of Margaret to throw herself between him and the mob, did he? - but such demarcations on gender were the accepted view. As such, I think a lot of people try and look at it from that perspective.

I certainly agree with you though - men can be sensitive too, and attributing certain things as cowardice to women is simply insulting! Again I bring up the example of Margaret's bravery in trying to stop the riot... Did that make her any less of a woman? No!

(And there's no need to apologise! :D)

Becca wrote: "but such demarcations on gender were the accepted view."

That is what really gets on my nerves. You were actually expected to be meak so you did not get a chance to show how much strenght you have. I don't think I could ever pass as a Victorian woman if I ended up there. There would be some serious nose bleeds :D

Becca wrote: "Again I bring up the example of Margaret's bravery in trying to stop the riot... Did that make her any less of a woman? No!"

Definitely not! But the worst thing is that she was looked down on from other women! Ok, this situation now pulls many more issues....men's treatment of women, WOMEN's treatment of women (even more alarming and disgusting IMHO) but I don't know if they are right for this book read.

@ Samanta:

It definitely gets a bit on my nerves too... but I think I'd be able to pass for a Victorian woman. I suspect I would be a good deal more spirited than people like Edith, but try to work within the system at the same time. :) But you never know!

As to the whole riot issue - I do find it terrible that other women would look down on Margaret for such an action, but again we have to remember that the women in question have grown up faced with such strict societal rules their entire lives. (I agree with you, though, sometimes women's treatment of their own sex can be equally or more alarming than a men's treatment) Besides, I don't think women back then would necessarily condemn Margaret's bravery, only the possible motives behind her actions and the excess of supposed emotion that they conveyed.

I was refering to the constant competition among women. It happens even today but it's not any less abominable because if it. Just think about Fanny's opinion of Margaret even before the riot. Always looking for a flaw in her just to make herself feel better. I'm not sure if my assumptions on the origin of this kind of behaviour are correct but I would put it to both a persons nature (insecurities) and society's rules on how women should be like and how they should behave.
I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. o:O

Oh, I see. :) Well, I agree with you about that too, but I don't think the kind of competition you're referring to is exclusive to women - at least not today. Certainly because of the way society was constructed, such behaviour between women was had somewhat more importance in the Victorian world. But at the end of the day, insecurity is a human thing, and both genders find their own different ways of dealing with it, no matter the time period.

Do you remember when Margaret said she found ladies' conversation boring because they were talking about trifles. They were braging to one another to see who has better and all disguised as polite conversation. Men also compete but they do it more openly. We women do it the sneaky way round so I'm giving a point to men here because I find them more...hm...unpretending.

Oh, and women are definitely capable of remorseless back-stabbing. So, yeah...one point to guys :)

Yes, of course I remember that! :) Again I have to agree with you that women can be rather insidious in competition with each other, and I do like it about men that they often solve their own dominance games in a more open manner. But again I hesitate to impose gender stereotypes - as a generalisation I believe you are correct, but individually I'm sure there are many women out there that are not so petty or sneaky about competition with their own sex, and men who are capable of remorseless back-stabbing. And let's not get into a conversation about how these different genders deal with one another, otherwise we'll be here forever. :D

I agree...on every point :D

Thanks! :D

So now we'll have to think up another topic of conversation. The two that come to mind are:
1. Opinions on Boucher's situation, or
2. Thoughts on the actions of Margaret and of Mr. Thornton during this rather fraught time.

Maybe tomorrow, when I get some sleep :D Good night! ;)

Good night! :)

I don't think most modern women could be Victorian. I don't even think modern men could be Victorian either. They held different beliefs about gender roles. Pink was actually associated with boys because it came from red - a strong, manly color and blue was for girls because it was associated with Virgin Mary and dainty and delicate.

Boucher was in a tough spot. He had to feed his family but was blackballed because he was a "knobstick." He felt like a failure and probably less of a man. However, I don't see his wife going out and getting help either so she's partly to blame for their situation. I don't think suicide is ever the answer to anyone's problems and it was cowardly of him to do it.

Qnpoohbear, who wrote the notes on your Oxford classic edition?

Hana wrote: "Qnpoohbear, who wrote the notes on your Oxford classic edition?"
Sally Shuttleworth, Head of the Humanities Division at Oxford.
She seems to specialize in Victorian women writers.

The part with Mr Thornton comforting Mr Hale is very touching, Thornton's faith is still steady despite all the trials he's been through and it is so good for Mr Hale to have such a rock to be able to cling to for a time in his distress.

Poor Margaret, the pressure! She really is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the lie she is forced into. I wonder if she'd have told Thornton the truth if he'd asked her? It's good that she's realised that she isn't superior to Thornton. A definite turning point for Margaret's relationship with Thornton.

She's beginning to become aware of her feelings for him. I liked this bit: 'It was a pleasure to feel how thoroughly she respected him. he could not prevent her doing that.' It reminded me of Thornton's words to her at the proposal, that despite her feelings, he would continue to love her and she couldn't stop him.

Boucher's death I find one of the saddest things in the whole novel. Does he have something like 6 children under 8? How he could do it I don't know, but he loves his children, he must have been feeling utterly desperate to have done something like that. I find Gaskell's treatment of Boucher's family a little unsympathetic, they seem almost like animals.

Ceri wrote: "I find Gaskell's treatment of Boucher's family a little unsympathetic, they seem almost like animals.
"
I picked up on that too. The language she used to describe them is very animalistic.

Ceri wrote: "The part with Mr Thornton comforting Mr Hale is very touching....Poor Margaret....It's good that she's realised that she isn't superior to Thornton. A definite turning point for Margaret's relationship with Thornton. "

That's so interesting about Margaret's turning point--her own fallibility opens her eyes to his strengths and her misjudgements. How sad that Thronton can't comfort Margaret who needs it so desperately!

It's sad generally because she is so alone and so in need of comfort but sad in particular because he has absolutely no idea that her feelings have changed so much and she would be so much more welcoming.

I'm don't think Gaskell was being irreverent in describing the rather animalistic behavior of the Boucher brood. She was probably describing things as she honestly saw them from her own experience in seeing all walks of life in Manchester as the minister's wife. These people aren't exactly the refined set. And a weak mother with a gaggle of very young children is going to let them go a little wild - she doesn't have the energy to keep things in control.
I was actually very touched at how much the reader is shown that despite the paucity of their situation or their lack of education or refinement, they were people just the same - who love each other and mourn deeply their losses.
And yes, once more when no one (no man, in particular) steps up to the plate, Margaret must do the ugly deed and tell Mrs. Boucher. Higgins was too shocked and the pangs of guilt must have hit him right away. Margaret had been basically blaming him for Boucher's desperation only moments before.
The relationship between Mr Hale and Mr. Thornton is beautiful. John's empathy is deep and his patience and gentle knowing just what to say comes from his own experience of going through deep waters and his own faith in God. "Man of action as was, busy in the world's great battle, there was a deeper religion binding him to God in his heart, in spite of his strong willfulness, through all his mistakes, than Mr Hale had ever dreamed." John is a deep thinker. And has a deep capacity for compassion and care - for loving.
He and Margaret are really so much alike. As she recognizes this in him, she will adore him even more. She sees some of it already. And he already intuitively knows her capacities for loving. And he exalts her for it.
It figures that when Margaret passes out, no one is there to catch her or go get the smelling salts! And not only that, but no one ever even knows what happened. She is so alone in her hardest trials.
Oh, and I love how Gaskell puts all the Victorian 'feminine weakness' garbage on its head. Here's Margaret blowing the theory of feminine weakness out of the water at about every turn. Gaskell levels the playing field on so many levels - religion, gender, class, wealth, position - and shows that every one is an individual. No categories - we know each person by who they really are: by what they do and how they think. This is one of the reasons I love this book so much.

Trudy, I love how you have put all that!! :) I totally agree with you that Mr. Hale and Mr. Thornton's relationship is beautiful. I love how they are different and yet they gain comfort from one another.

I was thinking, when Margaret swooned, that it was a pity they didn't include that in the mini-series and have Mr. Thornton catch her in his arms! ;)

On a random note, it has just struck me, at 75% of the way through the novel, that Margaret still hasn't set foot in a factory...or did I miss a part?! In the movie she sees it right away, yet I don't remember any mention that she actually went in, in the novel...

No, she never does. There's no mention that Hannah ever goes to oversee things at the factory either. Having these ladies visit the factory was a helpful contrivance for the film adaptation.

Ahhh...very interesting! Although I much prefer Margaret & Mr. Thornton's meeting in the novel than the movie, I liked the fact that Margaret was able to really see what working in the factory looked like.

Anne wrote: "I was thinking, when Margaret swooned, that it was a pity they didn't include that in the mini-series and have Mr. Thornton catch her in his arms! ;) "

I've always thought it was terribly sad that Margaret had to go through all that alone. And though I know it wouldn't have worked at all with the story, I wish Mr. Thornton could have been there for her! That would have been such a comfort to them both. Margaret could certainly do with someone to understand and support her... and how Mr. Thornton would ache to hold her and comfort her if he only knew what she was going through! :(

This part of the novel, I think, is where it saddens me most that the two of them are still apart... Each loving the other and neither knowing it, each needing the other desperately but not able to admit it, and having to stand alone.