North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[The relationship between Margaret and Mr. Thornton reaches a low point, especially during the visit when Mr. Thornton meets Mr. Bell, neither man caring much for the other. Margaret and Mr. Thorton barely see each other, and Miss Hale's life becomes dreary and monotonous, the only variety in her days being her visits to the Boucher children. Mr. Hale and Margaret learn of Frederick's marriage, before Mr. Hale visits Oxford with Mr. Bell, and there meets his end. Mr. Thornton is deeply saddened by the news, though not so much as Margaret, who has already suffered much in Milton. The only bright spark is the flowering of the partnership between Thornton and Higgins, who have begun to work together improving the workers' conditions. (hide spoiler)]

More sadness and oh Mr Bell telling Thornton that it must be Henry Lennox that was walking with Margaret, he meant well but poor Thornton.

More heavy chapters. Poor Margaret!
Margaret finally stands up for the progress of commerce. Now she's come full circle and is a true Miltonian. She has been influenced by Higgins and Thornton and now understands that she was prejudiced without being aware of what she was prejudiced against.

Thornton is starting to annoy me with his feelings about Margaret and the situation with Frederick. I looked up the reference to Una and Duessa and it comes from Spenser's The Faerie Queen. "Una is the Truth--both the absolute spiritual truth and what Spenser considered to be the true faith of the Protestant Christian Church." and "Duessa is "duplicity," the opposite of Una ("Truth")." Wow Thornton really really resents Margaret lyying. Why can't he just trust she had her reasons? It's one thing to be worried about her being mixed up with a shady character but he won't let it go.

Poor Mr. Hale has his head in the sand re: Margaret and Thornton. He never wants to face reality.

Chapter 43 is so sad. It was surprising to learn Mr. Hale was only 55 and Mr. Bell is 60. They're younger than my dad, yet they're elderly.

My heart just breaks for Margaret. She's been under so much stress for 2 years (didn't realize it was that long) and now she's finally broken. Her horrible ditzy relatives won't care about her at all. Mr. Hale observes they treat her like a lap dog. I think they treat her like a new doll. This new broken Margaret is so pitiful and heartbreaking to read about.

At least there's some good news that Thornton is beginning to see the workers as human and as good men. I love how the dining hall had to be their idea before they would accept it. They are so so proud! I love that Thornton is able to sit down with them and have lunch and chat about things. I think this will make him a better master and his men better workers. They're finally understanding each other.

Now I'm off to bed. More tomorrow or rather in the afternoon.

More things to discuss:
Higgins taught the Boucher children Methodist hymns! I can see why he would want them to have a little comfort in their lives and how his opinion has changed thanks to Margaret's compassion and Mr. Hale's kindness. Of course he has to do it his own way and go Methodist.

Also, did anyone else note that Thornton told Bell he has seen Helstone?!

Louise Sparrow wrote: "More sadness and oh Mr Bell telling Thornton that it must be Henry Lennox that was walking with Margaret, he meant well but poor Thornton."

Yes! And speaking of Bell, that whole conversation with Mr Bell, Mr Thornton, Mr Hale and Margaret in Ch. 40 made me want to scream with frustration! Everyone saying the wrong thing, talking at cross-purposes and that horrible moment when Thornton says: "Is Miss Hale so remarkable for truth?"

The reactions were devastating: Thornton immediately "could have bitten his tongue out...why should he stab her with her shame" and Margaret who "sat quite still after the first momentary glance of grieved surprise, that made her eyes look like some child's who has met with an unexpected rebuff...."

Ch. 41: My edition has an interesting footnote on Frederick's renunciation of England. "Frederick is on a parallel course to his sister in moving away radically from his origins. He detaches himself from his country and religion; she to a large extent from the values of her class."

Qnpoohbear wrote: "More things to discuss:
Higgins taught the Boucher children Methodist hymns!..."

I thought that was really sweet!

Interesting about Thornton's visit to Helstone....

Ch. 42 About the only really good things in this painful section are Mr Bell's generous offer of support and a legacy to Margaret, and Mr Thornton's notion of a dining room for his workers.

Poor Margaret what a family she has.

Hana wrote: "Louise Sparrow wrote: "More sadness and oh Mr Bell telling Thornton that it must be Henry Lennox that was walking with Margaret, he meant well but poor Thornton."

Yes! And speaking of Bell, that w..."

That part is so sad! I feel so sorry for both Margaret and Thornton, when John asks "Is Miss Hale so remarkable for the truth?" Devastating is the perfect description for the reactions, their pain all but emanates from the pages. Mr. Thornton is naturally still bitter, but it is touching and heart-breaking to see his bitterness exacerbated by the thought that he has hurt Margaret with his careless words. And his thinking Margaret must not care for him, because she did not look up and allow him the opportunity to show regret! Oh, if only he knew how far that was from the truth. She was hurt by his words of course, but the way I understand it, she would not look up because she did care for him, and the hurt was all the worse for the perceived knowledge of what he must now think of her... If I were in such a position, I know I would not have had the strength to look at Thornton again, for fear of seeing any further condemnation in his face.

Ch 41
Mr. Bell describes Milton "well-cleansed, etc." - perception of inverted hierarchy of industrial life was common among social critics of the time (xxi)
See Charles Turner Thackrah re: health problems caused by factories

By the 1850s they knew cotton fluff caused tuberculosis but many manufacturers refused to admit it! Wheels were too expensive and masters feared masses of working poor

Workers can not be relied upon to help themselves. They're childlike.

Some interesting ideas in these chapters on the differences between town and country, or North and South in this context, the town having additional stress and pressure, but being more forward-thinking and the South being an easier pace of life, but the workers being so physically tired that it dulls their minds. Margaret has certainly converted to the Northern ideals shown here.

You can't help but feel for Thornton, his love for Margaret is so deep and passionate, it's wonderful to read, but must've been awful to live with, the poor man. The scene where he comes to the house and is rude to her is heartbreaking for both of them, and it's a real pity that it comes between Mr Thornton and Mr Hale, particularly given how little time he had left. It's such a shame how close Thornton came to the truth of Margaret's lie before being diverted away from it.

This section is so sad for Margaret, there is so little to brighten these days. I enjoyed the introduction of some humour into the story courtesy of Edith and Mrs Shaw, the latter treasuring a stroppy letter because it reminded her of her deceased husband having an attack of gout gave me a little chortle!

I thought it was lovely that Thornton is taking the time to get to know Higgins, each of them seem to regard the other as a fascinating specimen of a different species, and they are both learning so much from it. The workers' kitchen is a fantastic example of improving the workers' lives without forcing them to do anything or overstepping boundaries, and without it becoming charity.

Ceri wrote: " The workers' kitchen is a fantastic example of improving the workers' lives without forcing them to do anything or overstepping boundaries, and without it becoming charity."

Oh yes. This is great. The idea had to originate with the workers for them to accept it and Thornton is beginning to understand their feelings and allows them to think it was their idea. They seem to have improved on his idea.

I love at the end (view spoiler)[Dixon thinks she had a dream that Higgins was sending Mary to work at the mill because he wants her to learn to cook. It's funny but it's probably true. (hide spoiler)]

I really love the kitchen and Thornton's growing respect for, and understanding of the workers. My guess about the future is (view spoiler)[that together he and Margaret are going to rebuild the mill with incredible success and do great things in Milton! (hide spoiler)]

Hana wrote: "I really love the kitchen and Thornton's growing respect for, and understanding of the workers. My guess about the future is ..."

Possibly in an ideal fictional world, but the economy is bad at this time and getting worse.

Qnpoohbear wrote: Possibly in an ideal fictional world, but the economy is bad at this time and getting worse."

It's entirely possible that I am far too rooted in my own idealism and romanticism here to appreciate what truth there may be in your statement... But do you really think that Thornton - with Margaret (and her fortune) to support him - would be so unlucky as to fall a second time? True, there may be hard times ahead, but I agree with Hana's view of the future for John and Margaret. I believe they would be careful, they would be strong, and they would be clever. They would weather the storm of the trouble the economy brought, come what may. Especially as John now has the respect and trust of his workers. If hard times fell no doubt workers in other mills may begin to strike again, but personally I don't see that happening at Marlborough Mills any time soon. But perhaps I'm too ignorant about the time period to see the full picture, I don't know.

I think his failure was mainly due to tying up too much of his capital so he had no reserves when times got hard. I don't think he'd make the same mistake again. Plus, having gone out of business once I think he'd be more awake to the factors that might cause a failure next time. After his father's death Thornton started at rock bottom and things only ever improved so he hadn't learned caution. I think he will learn from his setback.

Ceri wrote: "I think his failure was mainly due to tying up too much of his capital so he had no reserves when times got hard. I don't think he'd make the same mistake again. Plus, having gone out of business o..."

You're right Ceri, I believe his failure was due to the loss of capital tied up in the new machinery. The strike also played a part, I think, using up some of his reserves and having to deal with the poor quality work of the Irish workers. (Ironic, isn't it, that the strike helped push Thornton towards financial ruin, but by the time he is ruined his workers like him?) That is exactly what I meant! Having failed once, he will have taken note of how it happened and he will be careful not to repeat the mistake. I think, too, he will be even more determined to succeed, as he now has Margaret to care for, and she in turn will support and care for him. :)

In "Out of Tune" we have Margaret and John together in a room in a social situation for the first time since he saved her from the inquest and the tension is crackling from the get-go when Henry Lennox's name is unfortunately mentioned, piquing John's jealousy.
It's almost comical how John deliberately takes his time going to the Hales' home as a matter of demonstrating his self-control. But he's so piteously out of control when Mr Bell chatters on too long. Margaret is aware of his discomfort and tries to alleviate it. But John snaps anyway at the word 'truth.'
One of my favorite quotes ensues as he realizes he had best stay away from her - he just can't control his emotional state around her: "Well! He had known what love was - a sharp pang, a fierce experience, in the midst of whose flames he was struggling! but, through that furnace he would fight his way out into the serenity of middle age, - all the richer and more human for having known this great passion."
Wow. And note that he uses the past tense here. He doesn't have any hope that she will ever return his love. She rejected him with pungent words which he still freshly recalls.
Hooray for Mr Bell's perceptiveness! Margaret's sad and subdued defense of Thornton caught his attention. He felt something of what was going on. Mr. Hale has only ever seen the surface of things between Margaret and John. He's never caught the undercurrent.
I love how Higgins is puzzled by Thornton's seeming dual nature. And now Margaret knows that Thornton comes by the Higgins' home regularly and is concerned about the children's schooling.
When Mr. Hale leaves for Oxford, Margaret is finally relieved of her supporting role. "She might be unhappy if she liked."
And she has time to think and set herself to face the future in which she sees her whole duty is to tend to her father.
When that is suddenly snatched away, she's devastated.

That Thornton has been to Helstone is so subtly planted, but how much meaning there is behind this one fact! (Another reason I really love Gaskell: there may be a world of meaning behind a gesture, a word, or an action that the reader can ponder.) No one just happens to go to Helstone, it's a little hamlet several miles away from the nearest town! And John is just coming back from Le Havre. So the reader is left to conclude that he has just come from making a side-trip to Helstone on his return home, to understand more about the woman he loves but has no hope of winning. That he was impelled to go see it, that he took the time out of his busy schedule speaks volumes about this man and the way he loves.
(Sorry, I can only post a little at a time at present.)

I love your posts Trudy! You manage to pin down into words the things that I have picked up when reading but can't express coherently :)

Thanks, Ceri. I've had a few years of experience in interpreting and discussing this beautiful book. ;)

I second Ceri's comment. Beautiful writing, Trudi. :)

Thanks, Becca. Beyond having the opportunity to share my comments and vision of the developing story, I have truly enjoyed reading what everyone else notices and their perspectives and insights.
I hope I don't bore anyone, but these chapters are so full of rich content to be plumbed to the depths, that I still have more to say.
The events after the riot happen in rapid succession: the proposal, Bessy's death, Maria's death, Fred, the lie and the saving from the inquest, the funeral, Hannah's rebuking visit, the 'foolish passion' scene, and Higgins being sent to Thornton and getting a job. All these take place in the space of about two weeks! I can hardly believe Margaret is still standing. What she's gone through in so short a time!
After Mr. Bell's visit, close upon the heels of the above whirlwind of events, things slow down and winter is getting on. Margaret tries to busy herself with helping the Boucher children, but 'her heart seemed dead to the end of all her efforts .... her life seemed still bleak and dreary." This emptiness, to me, reflects her conviction that she has lost Thornton. She has no hope of a bright future - finding happiness with the man she has come to love. It weighs upon her.
The one thing keeping her going is her devotion to caring for her father. So it's no surprise that when that duty is taken away she is prostrate in grief - "white, motionless, speechless, tearless." I'm convinced an integral part of her great grief here is not only the loss of both her parents in such a short time, but also her loss of Thornton. If her future seemed bleak before, it's utterly void of a ray of hope now.
When she breaks into crying in Aunt Shaw's arms, it's the 26th time she has cried in the story (yes, I'm counting).
(More still coming. I'm not done yet!)

Trudy wrote: "That Thornton has been to Helstone is so subtly planted, but how much meaning there is behind this one fact! (Another reason I really love Gaskell: there may be a world of meaning behind a gesture,..."

I love that about him. It's such a sweet gesture on his part and yet he kept it quiet.

As much as I love the romance in this story - and it's my absolute favorite love story - I also get excited about the socio-economic and moral messages that Gaskell tries to convey.
In "Alone! Alone!" Mr. Thornton explains to Mr Bell his project of providing a dining-room for the hands. Here I see Gaskell promoting her vision of enlightened capitalism where improving the lives of the workers is seen as mutually beneficial to the business enterprise. Thornton specifically points out that this venture is not philanthropy, not charity, but a practical business idea that meets the needs of the workers. Thornton presumably gets healthier, happier, better-fed employees who are developing a relationship with their boss. And Thornton loses no capital in providing this - the kitchen pays rent to him, and he is finding the dining hall a place to communicate openly with the men. A kinder relationship is developing where master and men can get to know each other. Respect and trust is evolving at Marlborough Mills. I note that Thornton calls Higgins a friend twice in this chapter.
And his mother hates this worker's dining hall idea! I love this mention, because it shows how much John believes in following his own ideas and impulses in doing what he feels is right. Again, he's no mama's boy.
And this is all happening before Margaret even leaves for London.
But now, back to the emotional landscape. As Thornton's horizons in business are expanding into new possibilities, he knows the world as he's known it - with Margaret in it - is about to be eclipsed.
Mr Bell tells Thornton that Margaret had burst out crying that "she should be glad to go from a place where she had suffered so much."
The passage that follows, describing Thornton's thoughts of how much he valued the time she lived within his sphere, is one of the most beautiful, evocative, and moving romantic monologues in literature I've ever read.
He feels the deadening of the life he will live when she's gone. It mirrors Margaret's own bleak emotional state.
It's heart-rending for the reader to realize.

It's interesting to realize that even in her grief, with all those caring for her in her inability to function, she is still monumentally alone. Not a soul understands what she is secretly grieving for - beyond the very real grief and shock of losing her both her parents in one year. No one knows she is suffering from a tortuous regret for having thrown away what she now wants more than anything: Thornton's devotion. (Hannah is the only other person who knows what has passed between John and Margaret.)
And once again, Margaret is losing a home.

The romance part of this section is truly heartbreaking. Margaret has lost so much, gone through so much.

I love the way Thornton and his workers come to an understanding through the dining hall. It shows how much he values M's opinion and how he was willing to listen and learn how to prevent another disastrous strike. Mr. Bell, alas, is too frivolous to care. Or is he? He's more perceptive than he lets on at times. Maybe he's just lazy?

I think Gaskell is using Mr Bell as the device to explain her kinder, gentler capitalism. Mr Bell assumes, as contemporary readers might, that Thornton is doing this as a charity effort. But this is Gaskell's way of making it explicitly clear, that this is NOT philanthropy, but higher-minded business that can be mutually beneficial to both employer and employee. Throwing money at the poor keeps the mental and social barriers intact. Working with the poor and giving them self-enabling opportunities is an entirely different thing.
This is a step above the paternalistic attitudes of the past. Better even than Margaret's handing out baskets to the poor.
Gaskell is trying to show her readers how the struggling classes might best be helped in the new industrial cities.
Margaret will approve. :)

Yes it was a win win situation for both sides

Yes, Nancy. And I think that's what Gaskell wanted to show: a practical, mutually beneficial way of improving workers' lives.
I also think it was extremely important to her that people look at other people as fellow human beings without all the superimposed classifications of 'differences.'

Trudy wrote: "Yes, Nancy. And I think that's what Gaskell wanted to show: a practical, mutually beneficial way of improving workers' lives.
I also think it was extremely important to her that people look at oth..."

I agree. Gaskell had definite ideas about how to help the poor help themselves. This probably stems from her Unitarian beliefs.

Louise Sparrow wrote: "More sadness and oh Mr Bell telling Thornton that it must be Henry Lennox that was walking with Margaret, he meant well but poor Thornton."

This was just dreadful! :(

I wanted to throw my new iPhone up against the wall (the device by which I read eBooks).