North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[Mr. Lennox consults Margaret on her new position as an heiress, and his admiration for her is rekindled. Margaret takes a more firm hand in her own life, while her family conspires to keep other men away from her to further Henry's chances. In Milton, Mr. Thornton is suffering. Margaret seems lost to him and his business affairs are vulnerable, though he is supported by his sympathetic workers with whom he has deepened his relationship. Mr. Thornton is finally forced to give up his business, a fact made worse by hearing that the speculation in which he refused to participate was wildly successful. The only things he finds to hold on to are the support of his mother, and the intelligence given by Higgins of Frederick's presence in England at the time of Mrs. Hale's death. (hide spoiler)]

Ugh Henry is already planning how her money can do him good! I know he genuinely likes her too but still.

But finally Thornton knows the truth, thanks to Higgins.

Henry is growing on me. He cares for Margaret but not enough about HER. She's a novelty and she interests him insomuch as how she can support him.

Margaret is going through a rebirth here. She's come a long way in the past few years and even in a few months. I love this passage: : Before they went to Cromer, she had been as docile to her aunt's laws as if she were still the scared little stranger who cried herself to sleep that first night in the Harley Street nursery. But she had learnt, in those solemn hours of thought, that she herself must one day answer for her own life, and what she had done with it; and she tried to settle that most difficult problem for women, how much was to be utterly merged in obedience to authority, and how much might be set apart for freedom in working..... So Margaret gained the acknowledgment of her right to follow her own ideas of duty."

She's exhibiting the same independence of spirit that tried to break free in Milton. She's not content to be the angel in the house. She could never marry Henry. He wouldn't let her spirit be free.

I feel so utterly terrible for Thornton. All he worked for, all he sacrificed. He longs for comfort and his mother can't give it to him.

I'm glad Higgins decided to interfere and tell Thornton about Frederick. (Mary wasn't supposed to know was she?)

I love her growth and rebirth as well!

Ch. 49. I like that paragraph where Margaret is sitting on the beach thinking about Mr Thornton and she thinks "She must just submit...to be misunderstood."

But even though she sees no way to contact him and let him know the truth "her heart did not ache the less with longing" and she wishes that somehow "he might know how much she had been tempted. " What an interesting choice of words!

Hana wrote: "But even though she sees no way to contact him and let him know the truth "her heart did not ache the less with longing" and she wishes that somehow "he might know how much she had been tempted. " What an interesting choice of words! "

She's gone through hell and back and now she's reflecting on the past. Was she actually tempted to say yes to Thornton or has she revised her opinion so much that she's rewritten the scene in her mind?

I believe that when she's yearning for him to know "how much she was tempted" she's thinking about the temptation of danger that led her to lie for Frederick's sake. Margaret is completely hung up on her one sin - having lied. It's almost all she can think about because this is the deed that makes Thornton lose his respect for her (she thinks). So not only is it a personal remorse for a lapse in character on her part, but it's a deep regret for this loss of Thornton - her one chance of happiness has been utterly ruined.

Of course, the reader and especially the modern reader is aware that Margaret is making too much of her 'sin.' Even Mr Bell tries to give her reprieve on her guilt trip on this one, but she seems morbidly consumed with her perpetual penance.

From the introduction to the Oxford World's Classics edition:
It is significant that Higgins brings about the reconciliation between Thornton and Margaret. (xxxii)

Gaskell originally intended to have Thornton’s mill burn down (xxxii)

Margaret – questions of freedom – freedom to undertake new form of self-denial (xxxii)
Reflections on women’s roles influenced by Florence Nightingale: selfless carer for others not a radical challenge
Feminine virtues freed from the home become threatening – Edith fears Margaret will become “strong minded.” (i.e. radical and outspoken) (xxxiii)

I've really enjoyed reading all of Qnpoohbear's notes from the Oxford edition, and I agree with a lot of them, so don't get me wrong, but do they strike anyone else as a little one-note? Feminine this, masculine that. It's like they're from a gender studies course or something.

I do think this type of analysis is worthwhile and helps us understand the book and society generally; I just think there's so much more going on in N&S than this. The nature of love, pride, prejudice, power dynamics between people, human nature generally, the industrial revolution, labor issues.

YES!!! I totally agree, Tadiana. Although these academics can give us some perspective and point out themes, I always take their opinions and analyses with a grain of salt. I think they are often looking through their historical/social knowledge glasses and not looking at the story and characters as a comprehensive and unique whole. I generally like to make my own conclusions as to what the author is trying to tell me!

I detest the introduction in the Penguin version, for example. It makes the whole story seem depressing instead of uplifting to me, and I absolutely disagree with some of the opinions offered as fact.

I'm glad you pointed out your doubts as to all that the 'experts' spout. :)

Sally Shuttleworth, who wrote the intro in 1998, is head of humanities at Oxford. She has written a lot on Victorian women writers and teaches Victorian literature and culture.

I think I read the Penguin Classics edition in college all those years ago. I JUST chucked my papers or I'd check and see what I might have written about the book. I do wish I could remember but it's been too long and class was very early in the morning.

Yes, on the Academic one-note issue, I'll second the reservations on both Oxford and Penguin commentaries, even though I'm glad to have the input.

To me it belittles Gaskell as an author that just because she is a woman (and her book is being analyzed by women professors) everything about the book has to be cast in terms of gender. Gaskell clearly did not limit herself that way!!

The introduction to the Oxford edition is worth a read. There's several different sections. I copied some interesting comments but certainly not the whole thing. I think the argument was a bit reaching at times but some of it seemed valid. What I love about literature is that there's no right or wrong answer. I found a way to get As and Bs in college and I completely had no clue and just BSd my way throughy citing evidence from the text!

Mrs Thorton talks about how it isn't fair that her son who worked so hard all his life & has lost everything.

Yes, and she also feels it is so unjust for him to unlucky in love.
Just hold on awhile more, Mrs T, and John gets his just rewards.... :)

Interesting, though, to see Hannah lose her strength here. Mostly, because her idea of success was so bound to comparing him to others.
John is stronger because he doesn't equate his value as a person with a particular job or with wealth or prestige. He knows he must just continue to 'be always the same John Thornton.' He has remarkable strength, and it comes from valuing self apart from others' evaluations of you.

Yes, I agree re. the bias of the notes in the edition. I really don't see masculine v. feminine as being the big issue at stake. Thank you for sharing it with us Qnpoohbear.

Well, aren't Margaret's relatives a selfish bunch. She wants to go to Cadiz, or even Paris, they want to go to Cromer, and so to Cromer they all go! However, it's good for Margaret to have such a break, to be able to sit and do nothing and finally unbottle her feelings and unshelve her hopes and decide what she wants from life. Although she left her childhood behind when she found out her family was leaving Helstone I think it's here at Cromer that she fully transitions to womanhood. Previously she's been the dutiful companion to Edith, then the dutiful daughter, and now she's being dutiful cousin and niece but she wants more than a life spent being an attachment to somebody else. She has seen in Milton that she can do things on her own account, and now she has the freedom of her inheritance she means to stand on her own feet and do something that she can be proud of.

Her feelings for Thornton and regrets are now freely acknowledged by her, rather than buried and suppressed, as she's kept them in the past.

Henry's attraction towards Margaret reanimates, but he still doesn't seem to see the real her:
'He saw the latent sweep of her mind which could easily (he thought) be led to embrace all the objects on which he had set his heart.
Now, firstly he wants her to embrace the things that are important to him. What about what she wants? This doesn't seem to count for much in Henry's mind. The fact that 'he thought' is in brackets to me seems to convey that Gaskell wanted the reader to doubt that Henry is correct that Margaret would be so easily led.

Although Henry seems to genuinely care for Margaret he seems to almost want to acquire her. Much like his brother, with his beautiful trophy wife, Henry is after his own trophy. He admires her beauty, her mind, and her fortune but compared to Mr Thornton's passionate love, Henry's measured regard seems really very tepid. We know that Margaret is also a passionate individual, but I don't get the impression that Henry knows this.

Moving on to Milton, things are harder financially for Thornton. He has had a shift in his view however. Previously he regarded his business as a way for a hard working man to pull himself into a position of power and influence. These are the things his mother will regret in his fall from success but John has begun, from his relationship with Higgins to view his workers as fellow people rather than as adversaries. he's obtained a much better understanding of the views of his workers and Higgins has gained much appreciation for Thornton's point of view too.

John's regret now, is that the new ideas, from which his workers could improve their lot in life will not be able to be put to the test. His view has really changed over the course of the story.

The scene with Mrs Thornton is so touching, the poor woman is heartbroken for her son's sake. He is so honourable that rather than risk others in his downfall (as his father did) he will let an opportunity go that could save his livelihood and standing in society. This quote completely encapsulates his character to me:
"What can you do?"
"Be always the same John Thornton in whatever circumstances; endeavouring to do right, and making great blunders; and then trying to be brave in setting to afresh."
He is so utterly honourable, I just love him!

Mrs Thornton can cope with anything as long as she has her son, their relationship is absolutely rock-solid.

The only bright spot for Mr Thornton is that he finally finds out the truth about Frederick. Margaret doesn't know that her most dearly-held wish has come true and that Mr Thornton is no longer under any misapprehension as regards her behaviour. I am glad he has one thing to make him happier.

These two parallel chapters show both Margaret and Thornton encountering profound loss and longing and how they meet their losses and ruined plans. Basically, they're both brought to nothing and they find the strength and decision to soldier on. I love how they each show such strength in abject adversity that would throw most people to utter despair. If they can muster such courage and determination separately, just think of what a powerful team they will be together! It's almost staggering.
With a woman like Margaret at his side - helping him and giving him ideas and encouragement - I see John accomplishing great things.
I've just finished these two 'reached the end of their rope' chapters and I get tingly just thinking of the reunion to come when John comes to dinner!

There's so much in these last chapters. I've finished the book (finally!) and want to add just a few more things that stood out to me this read through.
Chapter 49 - "Breathing Tranquility"
Wow! Mr Bell's holdings were worth a fortune! Margaret isn't exactly thrilled to be so rich. There's a table in a book I have about Victorian London that compares the value of the English pound to the modern day. £40,000 = £1,787,600 today. And in US dollars, that'd be about $2,800,000 -- almost 3 million dollars! No wonder Henry is practically drooling.
I've always wondered if Edith knew of Henry's failed proposal because of this line (Henry speaking to Edith): "What you are thinking of, may or may not happen; but this time, before I commit myself, I will see my ground clear."
My inner "grrr!" revs up when Henry says "if only she were a little more pagan." What a completely un-subtle indication that he isn't the right one for Margaret! He doesn't even accept/adore her for who she is and what is important to her - her Christian morals.
Of course, I love that Margaret resolves to create her own life after coming home from Cromer. Would she have done so even if she had no great inheritance? Was her independence contingent on that money? I like to think she would have dared to follow her own course even without it.
Gaskell says she "gained acknowledgment of her right to follow her own ideas of duty." No details of what exactly this means is given, but there are two clues: Edith refers to "the dirt you'll pick up in those places" and the family refers to "all these plans of hers."
One of my favorite parts of this chapter has to be -- "Henry Lennox found out that an inquiry as to some Darkshire peculiarity of character, called back the light into her eye, the glow into her cheek." Wonder who Margaret could be thinking of at these moments? ;)

I think Henry loves her for what he thinks he could make her rather than for what she is and Margaret deserves so much better than that, particularly as she has so many wonderful qualities that other people really appreciate.

Yes, I can think of someone who loves her, including her fervent Christian convictions!
I can't imagine Henry is particularly enthused about Margaret's interest in helping/visiting the poor (we assume that is one of her ideals). But he would tolerate it. Rich maidens' eccentric proclivities must be tolerated. :)

Chapter 50 - "Changes at Milton"
Gaskell lays out fairly starkly her socio-economic vision of progress here in suggesting that people who live and work near each other, who depend upon each other - should know each other and have the opportunity to converse. I think this line sums up one of the most important points she wishes to convey to the reader: "Once brought face to face, man to man, with an individual of the masses around him, and (take notice) out of the character of master and workman, in the first instance, they had begun to realize that 'we have all of us one human heart."
Gaskell challenges her readers to throw off class barriers (gender, religious, etc.) and associate with people as individuals.
And Thornton has come so far in broadening his role as master that his experiments lie 'very close to his heart.' He's so deeply interested in working with his employees on a human level that he won't take work that treats workers as fodder for mere profit-making.
Clearly, he and Margaret have little to argue about now. They have very similar ideals and ambitions.
It's interesting to note the blurring of class lines with the friendship triangle now in place between Margaret, Higgins, and Thornton.
As if we didn't already know how iron fast Thornton's character was, now Gaskell brings him to an ultimate low point to show, once again, his true metal. He's nothing short of amazing in his adherence to principle and his refusal to evaluate his worth by monetary standards.
I love the utterances he makes as his mother condemns the cruelty of his fate: "Not a failure (he pays everyone he owes) .... Shame never touched me."
For one moment, his mother sees the look of despondency on his face and it frightens her. But he regains himself.
It's heart-wrenching to watch him suffer, knowing that the greatest part of his feeling old and pressed with hardship is his loss of Margaret.
His humility is astounding. Watson is the world's winner while he is the 'loser' for missing out on the speculation's success.
Oh, and how about his particular determination to be refrain from being angry with Higgins or from speaking gruffly with his family as his world is slowly crashing down around him?
(This revelation of his commitment to practicing character is one of the reasons I find fault with the mini-series' presentation of a violent master losing control.)