North & South discussion

~Brief Summary:
(view spoiler)[Margaret hears that Mr. Thornton is to visit London on business, and encounters him for the first time in a year. She learns of Thornton's improving relations with the workers, and more particularly of Higgins declaration that he would be happy to work for Thornton if he were ever in a position to take on workers again. Margaret asks Mr. Lennox if she can speak to him privately tomorrow, and Henry sees this as a hopeful sign, beginning to think of renewing his offer. However, he soon learns that Margaret only wishes to lend financial help to Mr. Thornton, offering him the money he needs to continue running Marlborough Mills. The two of them finally realise their enduring love for one another, as John Thornton shows Margaret the flowers he gathered from Helstone, and they laugh together over what Aunt Shaw will think of the engagement. (hide spoiler)]

After all that misery it finished too quickly!

I would so love to read about Mrs Thornton's reception of Margaret when she knows everything, and see them open the Mill again.

I definitely liked the book better this time, which is probably partly due to the images I have in my head from the series but I think my original intention of not reading it again sprang from the amount of death that occurs throughout.

He knelt by her side, to bring his face to a level with her ear; and whispered-panted out the words:—'Take care.—If you do not speak—I shall claim you as my own in some strange presumptuous way.—
Send me away at once, if I must go;—Margaret!—'


My stomach just had a somersault. WOW! :) Never thought I would see passion so openly implied upon in a classic novel. It's well worthy of a modern romance novel. Oh, Gaskell, ever a surprise :)

What an abrupt ending! I think I like how they did it in the series more (except for the above quote...that was wonderful) :)


Also I wonder what that "time of delicious silence" included. :D :D

Samanta wrote: "Also I wonder what that "time of delicious silence" included. :D :D"

I like how everything is left to the imagination here. ;)

Well, if it's anything like they showed it in the series, I wouldn't mind being in Margaret's place :D :D

Post reading rant....I just came to the conclusion that I have another spoilt brat I can't stand in this book...Edith Lennox!
Wanting Margaret to marry Henry just so she could have her around to raise her chidren and calm their "spoilt brat" antics when she gets tired of them. I mean, how can children be any different with a pair of languid parents they have. And what is with those "Margaret doesn't love me anymore and I should be the centre of everybodies universe" fits?! Oh, I wanted so badly to slap her to her senses so many times....and continue to do so afterwards :D

Edith definitely needs to be slapped. Margaret turns into Anne Elliot in these last few chapters. Edith can't stand the boy's bad behavior so she pawns him off on presumably his nanny and lets Margaret do the disciplining. I think though Edith had a more romantic idea of she and Margaret being sisters through marriage. I don't blame her for wanting that but she never considers what Margaret wants. Henry doesn't either. He sure tears out of there like a bat out of hell never to return.

Gosh that ending was way too short but I do love it. Margaret has to pay John for the roses, followed by delicious silence. Hmm I wonder what that payment could be? ;-)

Truly though I love Margaret's solution to the problem of what to do with Marlborough Mills and what to do with her fortune. She is, after all, responsible for Thornton's change of feelings. He still doesn't see the workers as equals but he's improved a lot.

Thanks for the group read everyone. This has been fun. I think I whizzed through it the first time to get it done in time for class. Class was at 9:30 am if I recall and that's way too early to be awake, especially for a freshman.

Samanta wrote: "He knelt by her side, to bring his face to a level with her ear; and whispered-panted out the words...My stomach just had a somersault. WOW! :) Never thought I would see passion so openly implied upon in a classic novel."

Oh YES! And you said it perfectly Samanta :)

My edition cites a letter from Gaskell to a friend in which she chafes at the page restrictions from Dickens (huh! who was he to restrict pages!?), particularly because it made this last section so rushed.

But then she writes that perhaps it was right after all: "I am not sure if, when the barrier gives way between 2 such characters as Mr Thornton and Margaret it would not all go smash in a moment...." :)

Much more passion and we'd be into bodice-ripping territory :D

Hana wrote: Much more passion and we'd be into bodice-ripping territory :D "

I thought so too. I think that delicious silence was all about that. After a proclamation of that sort from a Mr. Thornton, I don't think I would be doing anything else with him, if I were a Margaret :D :D

LOL! One might say silent except for the panting....:D

Have you seen the mini-series yet? (view spoiler)[It was all very romantic and lovely, but IMO, it was way too tame. I think the producers either didn't pick up the clues we're finding, or they were afraid the usual viewers of period dramas would not believe a more passionate scene. (hide spoiler)] I take back anything I ever said about Victorian repression. Controlled, yes. Repressed? No way!

Hahahahaha....oh that "panting" word got me too :D

I've seen it many times. That was how I found out about the story. And after reading this, I have to agree with you on the "emotion management" :D

Samanta wrote: "Hahahahaha....oh that "panting" word got me too :D

I've seen it many times. That was how I found out about the story. And after reading this, I have to agree with you on the "emotion management" :D"

See, that's why the last scene in the miniseries should have been in a private room rather than in public!

I think I'm upping my mental picture of the level of passion in the (heavily implied) kissing scene at the end of the book. Can you imagine the level of emotion Thornton is feeling when he finally gets his arms around Margaret after three years of passionate longing? ;)

And it wouldn't sit well with the viewers if they did something like that in the series because it was not done at those times. You are both right, it was too tame (though I love the series) :) But I wonder how people would react even it the scene was made in a private room. I think many would still feel that it was not "proper" :D

Tadiana wrote: "I think I'm upping my mental picture of the level of passion....Can you imagine the level of emotion Thornton is feeling when he finally gets his arms around Margaret after three years of passionate longing? ;)"

Totally! But it's not just Thornton, it's Margaret too. Loribear and Trudy have been pointing out some of the clues that Margaret was feeling plenty of passionate longing herself, and for almost as long as Thornton. Tadiana, take another look at the thread for Chapters 37-39. Once I started re-reading that section I completely revised my view of her emotions.

And now here she is, all grown-up at last, with the one man for her and all the barriers have come crashing down and WOW! I agree it should have been private and very, very passionate and then they realize they are close to totally...you know...and they break apart and they both start to laugh in that way that comes from the release of vast amounts of pent-up emotion, laughter that's close to tears of joy.

As we fade to black, there they are still in each others arms, laughing and gasping, and envisioning the shocked reactions of their various relatives--it really is too delicious and, I think, the perfect place to end the story (if not our imaginings)!

Hana, I can't wait for your review! :)

It took me almost a week after I finished the book before I wrote mine. These complex, lovely books are sometimes so hard to review. It's tough to distill all your thoughts and feelings down into something manageable. The same thing also happened with Cloud Atlas and The Count of Monte Cristo. It's becoming a recognizable pattern for me!

Though I tend to say this all the time, with every part of this book, these last two chapters are favorites. The lead up to the dinner party, the dinner party as it plays out... (Hana... you need to read through these two chapters again, with the new understanding that you have... you think it was loaded with sexual tension before?)

Samanta, you picked up on the intensity found in this scene. Though I still adore the movie ending as well.. I won't deny that I would love to see the actors performing the book ending. Though I've always loved this scene... a friend pressed me to read it afresh a couple of years ago and I was truly amazed at the power that lay in this scene.

Yes I do agree that the ending feels so abrupt but I have to admit that I agree with Gaskell's parting thoughts. Many readers skip this comment from her, as well as, the knowledge that when the story was being prepared for book form, Gaskell had the opportunity to change the ending but she didn't. (She added text throughout the novel and also added two additional chapters that were not found in the publication of Household Words) When you TRULY see the built up passion that both of the characters are experiencing through the second half of the book, Gaskell is right, "when the barrier gives way between two such characters as Mr Thornton and Margaret it would not all go smash in a moment"

I do wish we had been given a bit more time with them.. yet as you all say.. that lives in our imagination!

You might have to wait a while! I have no idea how to distill all this down into one review--and yes, the same thing happened to me with The Count. All I know is I've had this big grin on my face practically all morning thinking about John and Margaret together at last :D

Meanwhile, in Milton and on Wall Street, the chimneys are still smoking and the roar of commerce calls and I'd better pull myself together and get back to work!

Aww heck.. now you are making me feel guilty! Back to work for me as well. (Take your time.. no reason you need to rush a thing!)

loriBear wrote: "Aww heck.. now you are making me feel guilty! Back to work for me as well. (Take your time.. no reason you need to rush a thing!)"

Haha! Same here! But I work out of my home part-time so I only have to feel partly guilty. :)

Same here but I stoped working so I could finaly obtain my degree and am doing my Master Thesis at the moment.

from the introduction to the Oxford World's Classics edition:

Gaskell worried about how to conclude the book due to gender concerns. She needed to give her hero feminine traits without compromising his gender identity. Thornton is given emotional mastery in the final scene. He interprets her business proposal as a declaration of love and “claims her as his own.” This is a reworking of the confrontation between masters and men. Margaret is still ashamed but her shame becomes an aspect of beauty because it’s framed within the context of marriage. She is still anxious about female sexual display. (xxxiv)

It is significant that the story ends in a middle-class home. Fears about the working-class are transferred to Margaret and the idea of sexuality purity. The resolution to class conflict is marriage. What kind of marriage? Can Thornton remain tender and still be a master? Gaskell never answers any of the questions she asked. (xxxiv)

Notes on text:
First edition was presented in two volumes.


First edition repeated two paragraphs in Vol. II ch. 22 (ch. 46) that were in Vol. II ch. 19 (44) which were omitted in the second edition and a new passage printed at the end of vol. II ch. 23 (48)

Ch. 44 from “Hale family…” Dixon’s activities is all new for the book until beginning of Ch. 47

M’s anxieties about T. and her desire that his misconceptions should be rectified added. The next paragraphs until “one of the great pleasures” is a combination of old and new, expanding on M’s desires to go to Spain and Dixon’s responses to Roman Catholicism

Ch. 48 no chapter break in original text. Material is mostly the same until “All these weeks” where a paragraph is inserted on M’s concern that Bell has not been to Milton. Material on Bell’s death is altered to give M a more decisive role in response to Mr. Bell’s illness. In the serial version M sat inactive for a long time, overcome by grief. Edith suggests Sholto go to Oxford. M wishes “for a long time in silence that she might accompany him” but almost gives up due to her aunt’s objection, but then “she surprised even herself by asserting something of her right to independence of action” and accompanies Capt. Lennox.

“But when night came…:” new paragraph for second book edition emphasizing M’s concerns about her moral failings in t’s eyes.

Major changed occur towards the end of the novel. For the book version she changed chapter “Ease not Peace” and “Something Wanting” and added new material. She added two new chapters “Not All a Dream” and “Once and Now.” Changes in “Ne’er to Be Found Again”

So Mr Thornton is in London and our couple are finally in the same room, hurrah! But he's under the impression that her feelings are unchanged (boo). I liked this line:
"for an instant, his glance instinctively sought hers, as if he wanted her sympathy"

Henry annoyed me again with his lack of tact, the way he was talking about Thornton's business failing, like he knows anything about it at all.

I also thought it was interesting that Thornton described himself as somebody who finds it difficult to let himself be known even by those whom he desires to know. I thought he was always very open with Margaret, until he was rebuffed. I know he's talking about getting to know Higgins in this context, but it made me wonder if he had his failures with Margaret in his mind when he was saying this.

Margaret can see that Thornton has changed his view on the desirable relationship between master and worker, now feeling that improved knowledge and relations benefits both parties. When Thornton is questioned on the failure of his business Henry tries to change the subject to spare his feelings, but there is no artifice with Thornton, he has no desire to hide the failure of his business, it is sad but it's a fact, and he is honest about it.

Thornton's idea of including the workforce more in the decision-making of the business is just the type of thing that would interest Margaret without her needing to be moulded to take an interest.

Henry goes away in hope that her feeling may be changing towards him.... but after a meeting with Margaret the next day it's clear that his hopes for a marriage with Margaret are entirely over. Then he does something that for once is genuinely selfless - he arranges for Margaret and John to meet alone. I am not a fan of Henry, but I love that he does this for Margaret. The fact that he is able to do it hot on the heels of realising her feelings for Thornton also underlines the tepid nature of his feelings for her.

Margaret's offer to invest in Thornton's business gives him the realisation that her view of him is much better than he thought, and she finally understands him. He is somewhat impetuous here (again the contrast with the measured Henry) and rather than play it safe and secure the finances for his business he immediately offers her his love again. I love how Thornton's life turns around in just a few pages - he's had over a year of worry and misery over his business and his romantic rebuffal, and suddenly he's gone from a single man giving up his business to a businessman with a rich fiancée that he adores:
"It was too delicious to feel her soft cheek against his for him to wish to see either deep blushes or loving eyes".... sigh!

I agree with you all, the delicious silence is clearly some kissing time, and they deserve it! I much prefer this part in the book to the adaptation, it's more believable, and there is more smooching potential :)

The ending is somewhat abrupt, but my only real regret is that we don't see Mrs Thornton's reaction to the news. It's fun to imagine it though!

Hana wrote: But then she writes that perhaps it was right after all: "I am not sure if, when the barrier gives way between 2 such characters as Mr Thornton and Margaret it would not all go smash in a moment...." :)

I didn't know this Hana, thanks for sharing! They are both so passionate, I agree, and after so much time apart thinking it would never happen!

From the Oxford edition notes Qnpoohbear shared: "It is significant that the story ends in a middle-class home. Fears about the working-class are transferred to Margaret and the idea of sexuality purity."

Can anyone explain what they think the second sentence means? I'm not getting it. ???

... Yeah, I have absolutely no clue. What?

I think I'll take a moment here to join the queue of people who need that sentence explained.

I don't understand the first sentence either, why is it significant that it ends in a middle class home? I think it's nice that it's in the South, in Margaret's old sphere rather than her new one, and that she knows exactly what life in the South has to offer her and actively chooses to go back 'oop North' to spend her life.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Sometimes academic-speak confuses me. I'm not thinking at all like they are. They're trying to whip through the book, ticking off items on their long list of Victorian symbolism (mostly sexual, obviously), while I'm trying to understand the book as an individual and unique story, albeit immersed in Victorian culture.

And I'm utterly baffled by the academic comment at the end as well: "The resolution to class conflict is marriage. What kind of marriage? Can Thornton remain tender and still be a master? Gaskell never answers any of the questions she asked."

The resolution to class conflict is exactly what Gaskell outlines: it's getting to know individuals outside your class, befriending them, understanding their methods and mannerisms. Marriage is an extreme example and the most romantic symbol of this, of course, but it is by no means the only solution presented in the book. The natural evolution of friendship between Higgins and Thornton is more representative of what Gaskell is trying to propose. Can that be seen as a 'marriage' between workers and masters?

But mostly, I don't understand why - again - Ms. Shuttleworth doesn't think Gaskell answers her own thematic questions. Thornton has been demonstrating what a tender master looks like and acts like for over a year. Without Margaret. Am I missing something?!

As you rightly say, Trudy, Thornton has already changed his ways and the upshot has been that his workers are keen to continue to work for him, even knowing that his business has failed once, as shown by them signing the round robin. I think sometimes these people come into it with an agenda of things that might be touched on that they make into huge themes. I haven't agreed with a lot of the annotations from Qnpoohbear's version, though I am glad she took the trouble to post them.

I don't have the book anymore but I'll put it on hold again at the library to see if I can clarify the context of my notes.

I don't have the book anymore but I'll put it on hold again at the library to see if I can clarify the context of my notes. Who is reading this version? North and South edited by Jenny Uglow; London : J.M. Dent, 1993
I suspect the colleges must be reading this book since 3 copies are checked out/on hold out of 5 total.

Trudy wrote: "I'm glad I'm not the only one. Sometimes academic-speak confuses me. I'm not thinking at all like they are. They're trying to whip through the book, ticking off items on their long list of Victoria..."

No, I don't think you're missing anything at all - to me at least, Gaskell certainly appears to answer all of her own thematic questions! She simply allows a little room for an individual to manoeuvre in establishing their opinion on these issues after finishing the story.

All your points about the resolution to class conflict are absolutely spot on, and the points that both you and Ceri made about "academic speak" indicate exactly what annoys me about most academic notes on classic novels. I think academic writers coming to a novel generally have something they really want to say, some point they want to make. Rather than interpreting the story for what it is, a lot of academic writers seem to me to impose their own ideas on the story, taking what parts of it they can twist to support their ideas, and ignoring the rest. It certainly seems true as well that there was an overwhelming preoccupation with Victorian sexual symbolism in N&S with this academic writer, as you noted.

It's from what you shared with us, Qnpoohbear, in that Oxford edition.
It's intriguing to read these academic introductions and notes, but I do find most of them irritatingly similar in pinpointing the same dry old things. It makes the book which I love sound fabulously dull. I think my ire is roused because I feel the commentary largely doesn't do Gaskell justice. Her voice and message are rather lost in trying to pigeon-hole everything she writes about into some established Victorian category of issues. It's depressing to think that thousands will accept these type of remarks as authoritative.

Thanks for chiming in on this puzzling side issue, Ceri and Becca. Unfortunately, I come across many people who don't seem to 'get' some of the basic themes of N&S. I swear it's one of the most misunderstood popular classics - at least in the realm of romantic classics. I don't know, though, is there any stark diversity of opinion on how to interpret Pride & Prejudice?

Chapter 51 - "Meeting Again"

I'm fairly certain I missed the implication of the opening scene of this chapter on my very first read-through. Gaskell's clues are not hidden, but they can be overlooked if you don't try to connect the dots. Here, Edith is looking for Margaret but she's not home. Apparently, this is a snapshot of Margaret-the-Independent-Woman's life. She's out until close to dinner time. Where has she been? According to Edith, poking herself into 'wretched places.'
Another little tidbit Gaskell throws in for the perceptive reader: the day that Margaret found out about Thornton's business failure (a few days ago?), Margaret told Edith she had a headache.
I can't help but imagine what John's thoughts were as his first glimpse of Margaret must have been of Henry whispering to her in close confidence. Poor John!
This chapter is one of my favorites. There's an electric energy between these two that is palpable to the reader. The first time John speaks to her, her cheeks burn and stay that way through the whole evening! Being in the same room with him is overwhelming her. She barely talks and she keeps studying him.
John's jealousy is sparked by a casual comment of Henry's. He's disappointed by Margaret's unusual quietness. Both of these lovers are on full alert to the other's presence.
Throughout this scene I get the sense of Margaret being awestruck. Here's the man she's been loving and thinking about daily since she left Milton over a year ago. And she couldn't be more love with his humble nobility, his straightforward dignity of bearing. When they sit at dinner, she's secretly studying him every moment she can. If this isn't a girl wholly love-struck I don't know what else is.
My absolute favorite part is when John instinctively seeks her sympathy and their eyes meet. Gah! You feel deep in your gut the heart-wrenching longing that John still bears for her. Just looking at her, the woman he's wanted for two years, is enough to make his countenance pale - because he's convinced she will never be his. All he wants is sitting across from him at the table - but he believes she will be someone else's wife.
Of course Margaret is listening to every word he speaks about his experiments with his workers. As if she wasn't already in love with him enough!
And John has no clue, really, that she is love-smitten. He must have had a horrible night, thinking that was probably the last time he would see Margaret before she was married. :(
But the next chapter will be the fairy-tale ending he has no idea is around the corner!

Finally, the end! "Pack Clouds Away" (btw, that's the title of a brilliant sequel to Gaskell's book. Available exclusively at C19)
Henry comes out of a three-hour meeting with Margaret in something of a rush. But he can't get by Edith's persistent questioning. He's figured out which way the wind blows. And he lets Edith know her plans (and his) will never come to pass.
Whether or not he knew then he was not going to appear at the meeting the next morning or if he decided later he wouldn't be a third party is beside the fact that he was gentleman enough to let Margaret and Thornton figure this out alone. Good boy.
Someone pointed out in another group read how an admiring wife could be expected to proffer her husband's opinions on matters brought up in social discussions. And this is just what Margaret was doing at the outset of the meeting. To Thornton, she might have appeared rather dependent on Henry. Apologizing for him not being there (having waited nearly an hour in the hopes he would show up), and then she begins her "Mr. Lennox says" commentaries that John politely bristles at.
And then Margaret begins her flustered search for the right papers. I'm sure the reason she waited for Henry was so that she could hide behind him and make the meeting appear to be all about business. (Good Henry, again!) But alone, she's unable to maintain her poise in presenting to the man she most admires and loves such an astounding offer.
A long ago discussion of this scene at C19 brought out the astute fact that although Margaret's obvious nervous antics may have given her feelings away, the "light-bulb" moment for Thornton might have been when she uttered the exact amount she was making available to him - £18,057. That it is not a tidy, even number seems to indicate this is every last pound in some liquid account of hers. She's literally - in this account - giving him everything she has.
And then the silence as he tries to comprehend - the entire outlook of his life shifting ground in a few moments of recognition. And the silence is broken - and the relationship utterly changed - as he calls her not Miss Hale as he had done a few moments ago, but "Margaret." That one word betokens an intimacy with her, so significant in that formal culture.
And then it's Margaret's turn to try to comprehend in a dizzying few moments that HER most cherished wish is no longer a wish.
The repressed passion and longing is incredibly intense. So when she finally signifies her love by laying her face on his shoulder, the contact of cheek-to-cheek has got to feel amazing.
"He clasped her close." This really gets me. Just thinking how long he has desperately yearned to hold her close. It's the first thing he does once he knows she is his. And they just stay in that embrace, quietly for some time. wow. This is really powerful. So much more powerful, I think than the mini-series ending, which is beautiful to watch. Here in the book, we get body to body contact - a hug can be such a deeply satisfying release of pent-up emotion.
And I do love how they are playful after this initial emotional release and discovery of each other's devotion. The fact that they both feel comfortable enough to playfully tease each other speaks volumes. They know each other so well!
Although it's abrupt, I feel like Gaskell's already given us a brief blueprint of how their union will be. There's deep respect (both feel unworthy), passion (the sexual tension is palpable), humor and the last few words reveals their determination to meet their challenges head-on.
Abrupt but brilliant. We know they have very similar ideals now, and they have very similar characters. They've suffered a great deal to get to this point, I see very smooth sailing in their personal relationship that will get them through any business, family, or economic trials.
I fear Edith may be the most shocked of all. She never even saw it coming...

Thanks for your thoughts, Trudy. They give me additional appreciation for this scene. :)

Thanks, Tadiana. It's amazing how much emotion Gaskell packed into these last two pages. Would have loved to hear Richard Armitage utter those three trembling "Margarets!" sigh

Fantastic comments Trudy! I thought it was an odd number every time I've read it but never followed through the implication that she was giving him everything she had.

I completely agree with your comments re. Henry. As a character I'm not generally that fond of him, I would peg him as fairly shallow and self-absorbed but he does something selfless to allow the woman he hopes to marry, along with her tidy fortune, to marry somebody else. I love that he does that, it's a genuinely good deed and I would never have thought that he had it in him. It goes a long way to redeem him in my eyes.

I also agree with you re. the ending. I prefer the book. When you think of how much separation these two have endured I think it's so natural that they would cling to one another. That's what people do when they're finally reunited. The relief would be the primary feeling and others would soon follow. I love the romance in his feeling that it's too sweet to feel her cheek against his to move away. And the moments of 'delicious silence', sigh!

And for the 'delicious silence' part, you can imagine the tender-passionate kissing from the adaptation (now in it's proper, private location).
Actually, I can't regret the train station scene. It's got to be the most exquisitely romantic kiss on film. I have to admit that a drawing room ending might have been less dramatic - for film.
But give me the book ending anytime, so that I can experience, step by step, the unraveling of two years' repressed passion!

I think they could have done it properly and made it beautiful, wasted opportunity :(