Never too Late to Read Classics discussion

One Flew Over the Cukoo’s Nest by Ken Kesey (1962) is a novel set in an Oregon psychiatric hospital, the narrative serves as a study of institutional processes and the human mind as well as a critique of behaviorism and a tribute to individualistic principles.
The book is narrated by "Chief" Bromden, a gigantic yet docile half-Native American patient at a psychiatric hospital, who presents himself as deaf and mute. Bromden’s tale focuses mainly on the antics of the rebellious Randle Patrick McMurphy, who faked insanity to serve his sentence for battery and gambling in the hospital rather than at a prison work farm. The head administrative nurse, Nurse Ratched, rules the ward with absolute authority and little medical oversight. She is assisted by her three day-shift orderlies and her assistant doctors. McMurphy constantly antagonizes Nurse Ratched and upsets the routines of the ward, leading to endless power struggles between the inmate and the nurse.

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was written in 1959 and published in 1962 in the midst of the Civil Rights Movement and deep changes to the way psychology and psychiatry were being approached in America. The 1960s began the controversial movement towards deinstitutionalization, an act that would have affected the characters in Kesey's novel. The novel is a direct product of Kesey's time working the graveyard shift as an orderly at a mental health facility in Menlo Park, California.[ Not only did he speak to the patients and witness the workings of the institution, but he voluntarily took psychoactive drugs, including mescaline and LSD, as part of Project MKUltra.

Who is interested in reading about McMurphy who is loud and disruptive, and introduces himself as a gambling man who has only pretended to be crazy in order to get out of a work camp??

An Article of Interest

The Reading Life: 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' turns 50
Ken Kesey's novel 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest,' which became an Oscar-winning film starring Jack Nicholson, turns 50. Does it stand up to time?

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/...

As usual there is a movie found this interesting:

Cuckoo’s Nest was filmed in an actual mental hospital, which of course makes this aspect of it very realistic. The hospital used was Oregon State Hospital. One purpose of the book and movie was to highlight the terrible conditions of mental hospitals of the time, especially in terms of these huge “mansion” type buildings. Why are all these old hospitals so frikken’ big? The answer is the Kirkbride Plan.
“Moral Management” called for these people to be treated with the care and respect that everyone deserves. So the Kirkbride Plan for mental hospitals was created. The Plan called for spacious, clean buildings that provided fresh air, sunlight, gardens or courtyards, and comfortable rooms for the patients. Oregon State Hospital was built using the Kirkbride plan, so in this way, the movie shows a pretty representative physical structure. What’s interesting about the Kirkbride Plan and Moral Management was not just the physical expectations, however; patients were also supposed to be treated with a high level of ethical respect.

I watched the movie when it was first released and I can still recall some the scenes. The actress who played Nurse Ratchett(?) won an Oscar. She was one nasty character.

Louise Fletcher was the actress.

Fletcher gained international recognition for her performance as Nurse Ratched in the drama film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (1975), for which she won the Academy Award for Best Actress, BAFTA Award for Best Actress in a Leading Role and Golden Globe Award for Best Actress. She became only the third actress to ever win an Academy Award, BAFTA Award and Golden Globe Award for a single performance, after Audrey Hepburn and Liza Minnelli.

Hoping to start this today.



Boy am I glad my book came without a cover!

I didn't know there was a movie tie-in cover from a film made in the 70s. It is kind of scary. Jack Nicholson was really good as the main character.

I'm going to start reading this around the middle of the month. I remember the book and movie from school (about 9th grade, I think). Cuckoo's Nest and Lord of the Flies (book and movie, probably 8th grade) had a huge impact on me, and I remember them both with a heavy sense of dread. I am interested in seeing how my "grown-up" self reacts to the book-- I have a light comedy read lined up immediately after, just in case.

I will try to get to it this month. I just downloaded it from the library but have a few others to finish first. I remember the movie, too, particularly one dramatic scene from the ending! I have been wanting to read this book for a long time even though I usually don't like to read books after I've seen the movie. I don't remember many details about this one since it has been decades since I watched it.

I will definitely read it this month but am currently still reading a lot of other books, so I want to finish some of those first!

I have not seen the movie. It will be interesting to see your thoughts on the novel vs movie.

Thanks Suki, Pam and Madelyn for joining in with me on this read!

I am going to read The Last Unicorn or Pinocchio either will help the dread!

I went ahead and started it, out of curiosity. I think it is going to be good! I was surprised to see which character is narrating. Should be interesting! Now I have to decide which of 4 books to continue with or to read bits of each one here and there. Only a book addict would have this dilemma!

Pam, I took a few moments to start this morning before getting ready for work.

The narrator was a surprise to me as well, but he probably is the best choice, he is pretty much left alone so far.

McMurphy our Rebel is challenging for the ward boss, gambling head. The banter should be interesting.

I’m reading both the e-book and the paperback (Penguin Orange Collection). I’m glad I picked up the paperback because it includes sketches by the author from when he worked in the psych ward at the VA hospital in Meno Park. The e-book doesn’t include these sketches. It’s a nice little extra touch!

Pam, Look what I found!

Ryan Murphy (Glee & American Horror Story) and his co-horts are producing a NETFLIX TV series call "Ratched" that will tell the story or Nurse Ratched of OFOTCN and is described as:

"an origin story beginning in 1947 which will follow Ratched's journey and evolution from nurse to …."

I won't quote more of the description so as not to have spoilers for any new readers of OFOTCN. The series will star Sarah Paulsen as Nurse Ratched.

So interesting Brian! I will have to check that one out.

I made it till page 75, when McMurphy discovers that Chief (Bromden) isn't a deaf actually. The plot is quite intense as such. I looked for what the title of the book symbolizes and I found that Cuckoo means crazy in American slang, Cuckoo's nest denotes a mental hospital (for what we know of a cuckoo is that it is a sweetsong bird which never builds a nest); therefore the book is about an escape from a mental hospital, about defending one's pride and self-esteem, about believing in freedom.
We can see the shades of this oppressive work environment, the graveyard shifts, meeting deadlines, unreasonable targets and fierce competition in our corporate culture too nowadays.
I find Nurse Ratched's behaviour totally against the medical ethics. She is intolerable ( she's from army) and leading it to the matriarchy vs patriarchy debate once again, something I don't believe in. Any wrong kind of behaviour or action must be needed to stop then and there only, calls for immediate redressal. But we know that she has mastered such humiliating attitude slowly over the years.
The title is fascinating and I wanted to read this novel.
Good choice for the rebel theme.

Pam wrote: "I’m reading both the e-book and the paperback (Penguin Orange Collection). I’m glad I picked up the paperback because it includes sketches by the author from when he worked in the psych ward at the..."

I have the Penguin Orange Collection edition, too. I hadn't realized that it is illustrated!

Brian wrote: "Ryan Murphy (Glee & American Horror Story) and his co-horts are producing a NETFLIX TV series call "Ratched" that will tell the story or Nurse Ratched of OFOTCN and is described as:

"an origin sto..."

I really liked American Horror Story, and the idea of the Ratched series is very intriguing; however, I don't know if I would like Sarah Paulson in the role because she often plays delicate and weepy. It has been over 40 years since I saw the movie, but I still clearly remember how magnificent and frightening Louise Fletcher was as Nurse Ratched. Those are some awfully big shoes to fill.

Suki, after years in Ryan's service, Sarah Paulsen is also a producer on Ratched so I bet she's relishing the opportunity it gives her to 'stretch herself' into such a meaty role she normally doesn't play. We shall see, but I bet she can do it.
When the movie came out I was disappointed to see Jack Nicholson in the role since I thought he was small and slippery and I pictured McMurphy stronger and more masculine, like Kirk Douglas who played the stage version and had bought the rights so he could play the role, but it took too many years. I grew to accept Nicholson since he is the prototype bad but charming rebel

Brian wrote: "Suki, after years in Ryan's service, Sarah Paulsen is also a producer on Ratched so I bet she's relishing the opportunity it gives her to 'stretch herself' into such a meaty role she normally doesn..."

I am certainly willing to give her the chance. For me, Fletcher and Nicholson were perfectly cast-- it is hard to imagine Douglas in the role.

I googled the show; these two links are interesting:

https://youtu.be/WUlgBpKMUp8
The YouTube link is from March 2018-- the cast is discussed in the next link, which is from 2019:

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/ryan...

I plan to pick this one up later this month. I'm still slogging through Like People in History.

We are happy to have you join in later on Eugene!

Rachana wrote: "I made it till page 75, when McMurphy discovers that Chief (Bromden) isn't a deaf actually. The plot is quite intense as such. I looked for what the title of the book symbolizes and I found that Cu..."

Good to know that "Cuckoo's nest" have this meaning as a slang, because here in Brazil this book title translated (literally retranslated to english) means "A stranger in the nest".

The bet is placed!

My opinion: McMurphy will be the "Con" in control! Over Nurse Ratched.

Now that I started to read it I agree that Nicholson do not fit the role. McMurphy is intended to be a gigantic man. Besides that he made a good job. He always had that crazy face.

Mack has placed the ultimate bet. He slowly is undermining Rat-shed. His little ploys are abundant. When he pushes too hard, he steps back to make sure he isnt sent off to the Disturbed Ward!

Mack is a character. I loved the Monopoly game. Depots on the Railroads and Power Station on the Utility!

I'll have to try that on Larron as he always wins when playing Monopoly. The Son can get down to two bucks, like 3 or 4 times and turn around and win the game! He'll be amazed at my sly hand!

The Doctor is trying to send McMurphy to the Disturbed Ward, in the meeting with staff they all seem to agree he needs to go and low and behold if Nurse Ratched doesnt step in and save the day!

Mack still does his best to annoy Ratched, but soon finds out he has to have her support if he wants to get out.

Spent much of the day finishing this read. At times it was fun, fishing trip. At others times kind of worriesome of going to far. The ending was quite different than I thought.

Made me think though of the times and how Mental Health patients were handled than.

When you finish the read, does it make you wonder the same?

Found this sketch interesting and full of emotion:

Lesle wrote: "Found this sketch interesting and full of emotion:



"

Brill sketch Lesle - and how I wish there was more time, I would have liked to have read this one again.

Rafael wrote: "Now that I started to read it I agree that Nicholson do not fit the role. McMurphy is intended to be a gigantic man. Besides that he made a good job. He always had that crazy face."

yeah, Nicholson was perfect for the part

Inkspill
It was my first time reading it.

Interactions between the characters were on different levels of connections with McMurray, he used that to benefit himself. I had a feeling from the beginning that he was a con man but those parts I found were what drew me in.

Enjoy is not the correct word for the read. Not even sure how to say it. I found it very interesting and well written...

Movie:

In 1975 the book was made into a film directed by Miloš Forman and starring Jack Nicholson. Kesey famously hated the script and refused to watch the film, but many other people didn't. After receiving much critical acclaim, it would go on to take all five of the major Academy Awards—for best picture, director, screenplay, actor and actress.

Something Ive been pondering and wonder what some of you think about this question:

Chief Bromden was he mentally insane when he was committed or do you thing his 'hallucinatory fog' was his paranoia or the medication that they had him taking?

Lesle wrote: "Something Ive been pondering and wonder what some of you think about this question:

Chief Bromden was he mentally insane when he was committed or do you thing his 'hallucinatory fog' was his paran..."

I just finished Part One, and it really struck me how many of these men are turning out to be military veterans (WWII and Korea). Toward the end of Part One, Chief Bromden is reminiscing about some of his military experiences, in particular the fog machine that was used to hide the airfield and other activities on the ground from air reconnaissance. I wonder if Chief's fog is a PTSD-related self-protection reflex; when the fog was on during the war, the men were lost in it, but safe(r) from aerial attack. He has learned that if he doesn't cry out when he is lost in the fog on the ward, he is safe and people leave him alone; if he cries out for help he is taken for electro-shock therapy. It is really sad to think that, after being mentally damaged in combat, their country's response is to confine them and subject them to institutionalized torture-- they are prisoners of war under their own government.

Edit: I googled fog machines in wartime and didn't find much, but smoke screens were a very common way of screening activity from the enemy on land, on the sea, and in the air.

I found this article interesting:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ken-kes...

Suki wrote: "I found this article interesting: https://www.thedailybeast.com/ken-kes...
..."

That is a great article Suki! So on point to the story. Thank you for sharing it!

Lesle wrote: "Suki wrote: "I found this article interesting: https://www.thedailybeast.com/ken-kes...
..."

That is a great article Suki! So on point to the story. Thank you for sharing it!"

I'm glad you liked it! It gave me a clearer understanding of the underlying elements of the story.

Part Two:

That moment when McMurphy (view spoiler)[ realizes that he has traded away the four months left in his sentence at the work farm for an indefinite (perhaps years) stay at the hospital, and the length of his stay is in the hands of Nurse Ratched. The real horror in this book is how many of the patients are not committed-- they can leave any time they want to, but they prefer the awful situation in the hospital to the way they are treated when they are out in society. (hide spoiler)]

My reply to Suki's spoiler:

(view spoiler)[That part did surprise me and does make you think how hard life was for them after the war without the support from the community that life was better in a mental hospital? (hide spoiler)]

That book took me a lot longer to read than I expected-- I read a few pages, and had to put the book down and let the anger and despair subside. Institutionalized life, whether mental hospitals, prisons, or nursing homes, seem to bring out the worst in many of the people charged with caring for the helpless and broken. I wonder what had gone wrong in Nurse Ratched's life for her to be so broken, bitter, and angry that she (view spoiler)[ hated the men in the ward so much that at the end of the book she goaded Billy into suicide. I hope Chief finds his place in the world. It is ironic that, after Ratched tried so hard to turn the men on the ward against McMurphy, he ends up sacrificing his life so that they will be free, and that most of them would have lived out their entire lives on that ward if it wasn't for him. He was sort of a Jesus/Savior figure-- he gave up his life so that they might find theirs. (hide spoiler)] I'm glad I finally reread the book-- I was really surprised how much of the story had stayed with me since I read it in school 40 (!!!) years ago. I can't say that I *like* it because it is far too sad and disturbing for that, but it is extremely powerful.

Thanks Suki for reading this with us. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I finished this the other day. Like others, I was surprised by Chief Bromden as the narrator at first, but I came to think he was the best choice pretty quickly.

I, too, as surprised and kind of shocked that (view spoiler)[most of the inmates were there voluntarily (hide spoiler)].

I've never seen the movie, but Chief Bromden's recollections of his past (and the way they interlaced with things like his fog) reminded me of the Samuel Fuller movie Shock Corridor. The protagonist's arc in that reminds me of McMurphy's in a way, although he's a very different sort of person to begin with.

I agree Vince, he was the best narrator for he could be amongst the enemies without them thinking they were heard.

I still wonder why being committed with the different treatments given that they would remain, life outside had to be horrific for them, war does awful things to ones mind.

Thank you Vince for sharing!

Vince wrote: "I finished this the other day. Like others, I was surprised by Chief Bromden as the narrator at first, but I came to think he was the best choice pretty quickly.

I, too, as surprised and kind of ..."

I was surprised too. I had watched the movie many years ago so if this information was given in the movie I don't remember it. I was surprised too that that movie scene of McMurphy (view spoiler)[pretending to had become a vegetal (hide spoiler)] was made for the movie.

Rachana, Vince, Rafael, Pam, Suki

I really appreciate everyone's participation. It was an interesting and thought provoking read. If you read it with us, I hope you got something out of it other than one more off our TBR Pile!!

I wound up returning it to the library before finishing it since I got interested in something else! I’ll get back to it some day!

Lesle wrote: "Rachana, Vince, Rafael, Pam, Suki

I really appreciate everyone's participation. It was an interesting and thought provoking read. If you read it with us, I hope you got something out of it other t..."

I can't say that I *enjoyed* reading it because of the brutality the men suffered at the hands of Nurse Ratched and the institutional system (not to mention the outside world), but I am really glad I read it again. It really impacted me when I read it for school all those many years ago, along with Of Mice and Men, and Lord of the Flies.