Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the classic science fiction novel...

The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold
(1986)

This novel is available in a couple of different omnibus editions, including Test of Honor and Young Miles, depending on which other books you'd like it bundled with.

I’ve gotten a few chapters into the Young Miles Omni

Will be starting the audiobook today. I hope this is better than Shards of Honor.

The Vorkosigan series is Bujold's most popular series, starring Miles Vorkosigan in most of the novels.

Bujold has what I find to be an engaging writing style, fast-moving story & entertaining prose. She doesn't do snappy dialog (cf Scalzi) but the prose is witty in a lower-key way. Bujold likes to intersperse Miles's dialog with his thought balloons, in italics, so we know what he really thinks.

Chapter 1 introduces Miles Vorkosigan. Exposition explains his bent spine, short stature and brittle bones, which disqualify him from traditional military service. (The novel Barrayar, published after this novel, is the story of how mom (Cordelia) got poisoned during pregnancy 18 years earlier, causing those bone problems. Based on the details of the story mentioned here, Bujold obviously had it already plotted. The novel Shards of Honor explains how mom & dad, Cordelia & Aral, from different worlds and in different rival space militaries, met even earlier. Neither novel is essential to appreciating this story.)

Intro Bothari as family retainer/bodyguard (he was a character in the prequel novels, too). Also, Miles explains the "vor" thing.

I really enjoyed this, as G33z3r mentioned above it was fast-moving and entertaining. It didn't really go into deep, thoughtful stuff, and at times the way Miles got into and out of trouble was perhaps a little silly or unrealistic. But one didn't care, one liked the characters so much, there's enough grimdark stuff out there that one needs an adventurous romp where (view spoiler)[ everything turns out fine in the end (hide spoiler)]

Classic space opera
I’m finding having already read the Cordelia’s Honor omnibus helps as I already know some details she’s holding back (for example the Elena’s mom subplot)

I usually like publication order but this time I’m liking the ‘omnibus order’

Rachel wrote: "I usually like publication order but this time I’m liking the ‘omnibus order’"

When we read our previous Vorkosigan book I read the omnibus, and I have to agree, as someone who usually does published order, in fact goes out of her way to do so, so far the omnibus order is better for this series. I'm actually waiting for The Vor Game from the library since they lost the Young Miles omnibus. Fortunately they had the two books standalone, and I happen to have the Analog magazine that includes the short story that was also in the omnibus, that was just lucky chance!

I didn't know much about the series so I started on Shards of Honor, thinking that was the first book. I liked Shards; haven't got into any solid Space Operas for awhile so it was a nice change.

Think I might order the Young Miles omnibus bc they don't have it at our library (it's small, they don't have much) but might go ahead and read Barrayar before starting on The Warrior's Apprentice anyway.

I first read this as I got the books, roughly in published order, but then went back & listened to them in chronological order as audiobooks. It's actually a universe, so it starts with a short story 'Free Fall' (I think), then does a couple of books following Miles' parents before we meet him. All very good & that's a great way to read the series.

Ariel wrote: "I didn't know much about the series so I started on Shards of Honor, thinking that was the first book. I liked Shards; haven't got into any solid Space Operas for awhile so it was a nice change. ..."

Shards of Honor is the first book published, and also where Bujold herself recommends completists begin; it takes place two decades before this one, before Miles was conceived (but, she says, "The Warrior's Apprentice makes another good place to jump into the series for readers who prefer a young male protagonist.") As Jim mentioned, the novella Falling Free takes place a couple of centuries before Shards, but even Bujold suggests putting that off for awhile, since in both location & characters it has nothing to do with the other stories, until, she suggests, reading it before reading Diplomatic Immunity, which is the first time anything from Falling Free shows up in the Miles timeline.

In my own reading of the series, which is still three novels shy of complete, I just bounced around based on what was readily available.

I don't know what speed others are reading, so I'm going to plow ahead. (If you see "Chapter x" and haven't read that yet, assume what follows will be a spoiler. :)

Chapter 2. Miles's home. Cordellia, Aral, and curmudgeon Piotr Vorkosigan (don't get too attached), plus Bothari and his daughter Elena and various servants. Mile's middle name is Naismith; I'd forgotten where that name came from. Grandpa gives us an idea that Barrayar's last century has been one of rapid modernization (or going soft, according to the old guy.)

Chapter 3. RIP grandpa. Dad moves up to Count Vorkosigan, Miles becomes Lord. We may have to #metoo Miles.

Chapter 4. We introduce the Vorpatrils. Cousin Ivan, Miles's buddy, and aunt Alice. Ivan isn't much of a figure in this book, but he shows up throughout the series. "Swiving" I wonder where Bujold learned that one. :) We may have to #metoo Cordelia, too. (She's supposed to be the woke one. :)

Chapter 5. Field trip to Beta, Cordelia's home planet, for Miles, Bothari & Elena. The stop along the way to research Elena's monther on Escobar comes up empty. Miles buys an ancient spaceship using radioactive slag as collateral, his first scam, and gets its jump pilot, Arde Mayhew. The ship doesn't seem to have a name, just the ID number RG-132.

Chapter 6. Miles visits Grandma on Beta, but mostly ends up recruiting a Barrayaran deserter & engineer, Baz Jessek, for his new spaceship.

Chapter 7. And now Miles is posing as a professional smuggler, Mr. Naismith, and they set up to con their way through a military blockade. All this because he needs to recoup the money he impulsively spent on a ship as a way to talk Arde out of suicide.

Chapter 8. Miles & Co. end up capturing the Oseran mercenaries' blockading shuttle.This ship doesn't have a name, either. (Out of curiosity I checked Shards of Honor; The Betan ship in it had a name, Rene Magritte, as did the Barrayaran ship, General Vorkraft.

Chapter 9. Miles captures his first prize ship, the inspection shuttle from the Oseran blockade fleet. He's surprisingly dismayed by the single casualty. This mercenary ship has a name! Ariel :)

Chapter 10. A highly amusing chapter. Miles improvises a scam as a group of "military consultants" from the "Dendarii Free Mercenary Fleet", conducts inspections, and announces he's taken over the Oseran mercenary ship Ariel. . Miles is surprised the crew's reaction is questions about pay and benefits! (Bothari dryly comments, "You aren't a commander, you're a holovid director." A rare piece of wit from the big guy.) "People naturally believe what they invent for themselves."


Note: I've noticed I tend to write Barrayan rather than Barrayaran, because there are too many syllables in the latter to pronounce. :)

I'll be super slow since I am listening to the audio. Just finished chapter 1 and I am glad I can use this for my diversity challenge (criteria: MC does not have the ideal body type).

It sure is an easy Enjoyable read. Definitely feel like Im getting more out of it from having read the two Cordelia stories first.

This feels like a book I really don’t want to pick at b/c that’s not the point - it’s the journey not the destination?

I had a thought: if some people were going to read the whole Omnibus should we continue to use this thread?

chapter 4

Darn, I thought I could be (view spoiler)[spared from the rape plots from Shards, which is my biggest issue with the book. Just recalled that Elena was Bothari's daughter after he raped her mother, an Escobar POW.

My distaste of it now even makes me feel iffy when listening to Miles gushing about Elena's various body parts. So much like when Cordelia likes to gush about Aral's. I guess this is typical Bujold for Vorkosigan saga since I did not feel it when reading her World of Five Gods books,. (hide spoiler)]

What's wrong with people admiring other people's bodies, even gushing about them?

Rachel wrote: "It sure is an easy Enjoyable read. Definitely feel like I'm getting more out of it from having read the two Cordelia stories first..."

Well, it depends on the reading experience you want. Many of the basic facts from the two Cordelia books are eventually exposed in this novel. if you haven't read Shards of Honor, they're revelations; if you have, it's just confirmation.

Silvana wrote: "chapter 4
Darn, I thought I could be (view spoiler)[spared from the rape plots from Shards (hide spoiler)] ..."

No relief, it'll come up again later in this book as well (though not repeated.)

It's interesting how what seemed acceptable in 1986 is so much less so today. Miles's best-pal Ivan is meant to be the foil for Miles's love-life. Ivan is the handsome, dashing Lothario who gets all the girls (and takes liberties.) Of course, in context, Barrayaran society is very repressed around women, and even Cordelia thinks dallying with the female servants is just a "boys will be boys" thing.

Chapter 11-12. The newly invented Dendarii Mercenaries re-capture a mining station, mostly by Miles asking, "What would you do, trainee...." to his former prisoners turned crew. Then they captures the Osran Mercenaries dreadnaught, Triumph, its crew and Captain Tung. Miles promptly doubles-down on his house of cards: gives command of Ariel to its former Oseran first officer, Thorne, and command of Triumph to Auson, the former Oseran captain of Ariel. All the former Oseran mercenaries want to know is, what's the combat bonus? and when's payday? :)

Another rare witticism from the big guy:

[Mayhew] then inhaled, and added with more heat, "But you never warned me, never briefed...”I swear if you ever pull a trick like that again, I'll...”
A ghostly smiled tinged Bothari's lips. "Welcome to my lord's service, Armsman."

Rachel wrote: "I had a thought: if some people were going to read the whole Omnibus should we continue to use this thread?"

I'd suggest asking in the Buddy Reads thread if anyone else is moving on to The Mountains of Mourning and/or The Vor Game

G33z3r wrote: "Silvana wrote: "chapter 4
Darn, I thought I could be [spoilers removed] ..."

No relief, it'll come up again later in this book as well (though not repeated.)

It's interesting how what seemed acce..."

Hmm I hope this book does not focus too much on the YA romance part. I am a bit worried now that in next chapter (view spoiler)[Elena is coming with Miles to visit his granma. (hide spoiler)]

Cordelia's thoughts about the dalliance, well, it does not surprise me at all, knowing her. She definitely belongs with the Barrayarans.

Jim wrote: "What's wrong with people admiring other people's bodies, even gushing about them?"

Nothing if it's only mentioned, like, twice. We know he digs her. It happened repeatedly until the point I am tired reading about it. Cordelia had similar type of infatuation over Aral which I found annoying at the first book and here I had to suffer it again with Miles over Elena's long legs and other appendages. Just preference of narrative style, I think.

Silvana wrote: "Nothing if it's only mentioned, like, twice. We know he digs her. It happened repeatedly until the point I am tired reading about it. Cordelia had similar type of infatuation over Aral which I found annoying at the first book and here I had to suffer it again with Miles over Elena's long legs and other appendages. Just preference of narrative style, I think."

So you don't like romance novels? never read them?

Luffy wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Nothing if it's only mentioned, like, twice. We know he digs her. It happened repeatedly until the point I am tired reading about it. Cordelia had similar type of infatuation over A..."

I love Gone with the Wind and cried reading A Walk to Remember, do those count? :D

Silvana wrote: "Luffy wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Nothing if it's only mentioned, like, twice. We know he digs her. It happened repeatedly until the point I am tired reading about it. Cordelia had similar type of infa..."

I know nothing about A Walk to Remember, but GwTW is hardly romance. I think your reading tastes are light years far from the kind of romance books I've read. Your reply was so innocent.

I classify GWTW as romance due to the love story between Scarlett and Rhett. I read mostly classics... Wuthering Heights I enjoyed, Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, North and South, Jane Eyre, are they romance too? If not then I need to do some reshelving.

Anywho, I wished I had never read Shards of Honor since it definitely skewed my opinion on this one while reading it.

Silvana wrote: "love story between Scarlett and Rhett."

Wasn't Scarlett in love with Ashley for most of the book? And Rhett kept teasing her a lot. The last chapter of GwtW is tragic, but also romance. The ending is a romantic trope. But there's no happy ending.

I've not read any of the classics, sorry about that.

Luffy wrote: "Silvana wrote: "love story between Scarlett and Rhett."

Wasn't Scarlett in love with Ashley for most of the book? And Rhett kept teasing her a lot. The last chapter of GwtW is tragic, but also rom..."

We clearly had different take on GWTW. I will still now classify it as romance as with other 2800 readers in Goodreads who shelved it as romance. I looked at your romance shelf and I am now convinced I actually read slightly more. You did read Pride and Prejudice, btw.

OK, back to Miles please. I swear I won't comment on the romance thing again since apparently it attracted strange comments.

I am on chapter 6 and pretty sure we met that pilot before. Question: (view spoiler)[what was Miles motivation for the whole recruitment thing? It felt rather sudden. Was he looking for something to keep him busy now that he could not enter the school? (hide spoiler)]

Silvana wrote: "Luffy wrote: "Silvana wrote: "love story between Scarlett and Rhett."

Wasn't Scarlett in love with Ashley for most of the book? And Rhett kept teasing her a lot. The last chapter of GwtW is tragic..."

Sigh. Carry on. Nothing to see here ;)

Silvana wrote: "chapter 4

Darn, I thought I could be spared from the rape plots from Shards, which is my biggest issue with the book. Just recalled that Elena was Bothari's daughter after he raped her mother, an ..."

I mean just because Elena is the result of a rape doesn't mean she can't attract male attention? I guess I'm just confused why Miles should not be allowed to be attracted to her based on her birth, especially as he doesn't know the circumstances, she's not exactly walking around with a sign on her head. Should children of rape be viewed by the rest of the world differently? I would argue they should be treated as normal people, their circumstance of their birth is not their fault. Better she be admired than men saying "Eww, a bastard"

There is a YA feel to these books, both in the lack of real deep seriousness (basically a bunch of bad stuff happens (view spoiler)[ but everything turns out happy and shiny at the end (hide spoiler)]) and the romances...Miles is what 18, he is YA after all? And when we read the first book I mentioned in the discussion that Cordelia and Aral were acting exactly like a YA romance except they were actual adults :) I had the omnibus and was scratching my head wondering how it managed to win an award then realized that the award was for the *second* book :D

I'll just point out that in classics, the romance is very...hmm, formal...reserved? So it's a poor comparison to modern romances (trust me, I tried one out for the Genre Blender BINGO spot...70% of the text involves the characters oggling each others attributes repeatedly) I mean kissing before a marriage proposal was a big deal, let alone sex. Just thinking about the other person in a dirty way would probably make readers gasp in horror and think the protagonists are lustful sinners (or at least publishers wouldn't publish, or if they did the book would be banned, see Lady Chatterley's Lover...) In the modern day we are a little more free in our discussions of sex so books have become a lot more explicit.

G33z3r wrote: Of course, in context, Barrayaran society is very repressed around women, and even Cordelia thinks dallying with the female servants is just a "boys will be boys" thing.

Which Bujold makes a point of by contrasting it with Betan society. She isn't condoning this behaviour, she's pointing out it's flaws, though I guess I missed the bit about Cordelia approving the behaviour so then Bujold is sending mixed signals.

Silvana wrote: "I am on chapter 6 and pretty sure we met that pilot before. Question: what was Miles motivation for the whole recruitment thing?"

It definitely felt random. I got the jist that Miles just felt sorry for the pilot and wanted to help him out. And then from that one premise everything just became a sequence of escalation events that grow from that one incident. Basically by offering to help, he had to figure out how, by figuring out how he got himself into another hole he had to figure out how to get out of and he keeps digging and digging...and well you have a whole book still to go :) It's like the chain of events where a butterfly flutters it wings and next thing you know you have a hurricane.

I wouldn't focus too much on the realism in this book, it's a silly romp and an adventure, it doesn't always make sense. A comedy of errors perhaps? Where enemies become your friend just because you're a nice guy kind of thing. I don't want to give away too much but I want you to be in the right mindset to not focus on plausibility of all events, just enjoy the ride (though there is a serious section towards the end where the rape is brought up again, just warning you, though no one gets raped...one woman loses her face in a battle though...). For a kind of YA feel book, it can get dark at times, but then so do things like The Hunger Games.

Andrea wrote: "Which Bujold makes a point of by contrasting it with Betan society. She isn't condoning this behaviour, she's pointing out it's flaws, though I guess I missed the bit about Cordelia approving the behaviour so then Bujold is sending mixed signals."

Going to comment on my own comment...not having the book anymore to look up the reference, could it be that Cordelia accepts the "boys will be boys" because she also accepts "girls will be girls" and "hermaphrodites will be hermaphrodites" and you can be gay or straight and that's ok too, and if you happen to like a little of everything you can go join one of those orgies they organize on the weekends? On Beta Colony the youth are given implants so they can't get pregnant and then are allowed to do whatever with whomever. So a little youthful fooling around would probably seem normal to Cordelia.

Hopefully the context in which she accepts this behaviour wasn't one where it was assumed Miles was pulling rank on Elena and commanding her to do what he wanted just because she was his servant. (I used the word commanding since Miles couldn't force Elena to do anything, she could break him like a toothpick)

Not to be rude (which means this probably is) but I never considered GWTW a romance, either. Yes, it had one of the greatest fictional romances ever in its pages, but it wasn't what I think of as a romance novel. It was about so much more than the romance & didn't revolve around it as much as it used it as part of the dramatic, historical package.

I'm fairly awful with genres, but I think of romances as stories that primarily revolve around that. More of the Harlequinn(sp?) romance formula. I put Restoree in that category, although it's an SF novel. It's basically a romance dressed up in SF clothing.

I found Miles' attraction Elena quite well done. I've been an 18 year old boy. Lust, while not PC, is a real thing & young boys tend to go for the packaging before worrying about the personality.

Andrea wrote: "Which Bujold makes a point of by contrasting it with Betan society. She isn't condoning this behaviour, she's pointing out it's flaws, though I guess I missed the bit about Cordelia approving the behaviour so then Bujold is sending mixed signals...."

At one point (Chapter 4) Cordelia says (of Aunt Alice) "seems she wants Aral to stand the boy [Ivan] up in a corner somewhere and brace him for—er—swiving the servant girls, which ought to embarrass them both thoroughly. I’ve never understood why these people won’t clip their kids’ tubes and turn them loose at age twelve to work out their own damnation, like sensible folk. You may as well try to stop a sandstorm with a windsock"

While contraception is a nice thought, it does presume the servant girls are playthings for the household teens. I doubt the servants are free to reject their employer's attentions without consequence. Perhaps Betans don't do the household servant thing, so it doesn't pertain. There's no reason these societies need to reflect modern sensibilities since they are fictional societies..

@Andrea: No I did not mean it like that, it is just that the early chapters reminded me of something I hated from the first book (and I don't want to be reminded of that) 😆

I like your explanation on the comedy of errors. Will try to keep my mind around that and not focusing on the other things.

Re: servants as playthings, this is just like some medieval fantasy I read where it's seen as typical behavior of nobles. I hope to see Elena rises up to her potential later (I have a feeling she will).

Jim wrote: "Not to be rude (which means this probably is) but I never considered GWTW a romance, either. Yes, it had one of the greatest fictional romances ever in its pages, but it wasn't what I think of as a..."

Thanks Jim. Romance means finding your soulmate, often i.e. Many women read romance that is erotica too. In fact I'm reading one of these romances currently.

G33z3r wrote: "...While contraception is a nice thought, it does presume the servant girls are playthings for the household teens. I doubt the servants are free to reject their employer's attentions without consequence. ..."

Probably not, but it also could be to their benefit. They might enjoy it. (gasp!) Plenty of girls throw themselves at rock stars & rich men in our society. If they're lower in the staff hierarchy it could give them some status & protection. It might lead to money, influence, or a sort of welfare status if they have a bastard. Of course, there are plenty of downsides, too. This is supposed to be a sort of Medieval society with huge gaps in the social structure, so the gamble might seem a good one to many a young lass.

Chapter 13-14. It's interesting that when the brig springs an air leak, Elena immediate decides to release the prisoners rather than let them die in vacuum. Her dad strongly disagreed. Capt Tung escapes.

Chapter 15. A quick change of mood from the light adventure romp. We say goodbye to Bothari only moments after discovering the suppressed mystery of his past, and solve the mystery of Elena's mom, in the novel's most serious chapter. (Those who read Shards of Honor first will have already known this; those who haven't can read it for the details.)

It seemed to me Elena (Bothari) was a little too quick to turn on her dad, villain or no.

I thought it interesting that they don’t seem to try to dig into Botharis past at all. Just take it all as true. Those of us who read the preceding know that’s there’s a lot more shades of grey than this one presents....

G33z3r wrote: It seemed to me Elena (Bothari) was a little too quick to turn on her dad, villain or no."

Yeah, I was shocked too. I guess under normal circumstances...going into spoiler mode here since I know some people didn't get here yet (view spoiler)[ there is very little justification for rape, almost any excuse isn't going to fly. However he was brainwashed, not really in control of his actions, and of course we know about his overwhelming regret in the way he dotes on his daughter. So I felt really bad about what happened to him.

However keep in mind no one in the room at that moment had the information needed to defend him (not even him as he had his memory wiped), and frankly not sure Elena's mom would care either way, she was damaged by this man, and since she couldn't take revenge on the man pulling the strings, she had to take it out on the man who actually raped her. I mean if I were faced with my rapist I wouldn't go "Oh, maybe we should sit by the computer terminal and do some research as to what actually happened back then". In retrospect this was about the only logical way that scene could have played out. And maybe Bothari can finally have some peace, he didn't exactly have a happy life.

But I really felt the urge to pop myself into the story to explain what really happened. I guess Aral and Cordelia are the only ones left who can explain it and Miles doesn't get a chance to discuss the topic when he gets back. Wonder if they will update him in later books or if it's kind of a moot point with Bothari dead.

I felt bad also that she rejected Elena so strongly, right till the end, I mean it wasn't Elena's fault. I thought at least she'd accept her daughter. But then yeah, it wasn't even just rape, it was repeated rape and torture, it was bad, I can see not wanting to ever have to think about it again, let alone have to build a relationship with a living breathing reminder. (hide spoiler)]

The early Miles books have that incredible freedom that by and large is lost in the later books. Miles can do anything, and anything can happen, and that gives the early ones a zip and zing.

I did end up backtracking and reading Dreamweaver's Dilemma, Falling Free, and Barrayar so I'm just getting to Warrior's Apprentice. I'm on chapter 7 atm so I'm still spoiler-dodging most of this thread haha but I'll be glad once I can fully read through it and discuss more.

I will say that I like the series as a whole so far. I might just be caught up in being stoked about landing in a new (to me) space opera, as it's different than what I've been reading lately, but still. What's striking me so far is that, in the books I've read, there are very different tones. The prequels, Dreamweaver's Dilemma and Falling Free, both have action to them but they have a more mythic tone that the books about Cordelia and Vorkosigan. I'll hedge my bets concerning spoilers on the other books and keep mum about the overall plot in case others are planning on circling back but I've just really enjoyed that there's a different feel throughout but you can tell it's Bujold's voice at the heart of them. The enthusiasm about exploration, the eye towards what makes civilization, what true morality/loyalty/progress is made of, etc. is evident in each story but the way the plot circles back to that feels unique with each book (so far).

I agree, @Brenda, even though I'm just at the beginning with Miles - I like how 'on the brink' it feels. Def feels like he can jump off into anything and you're never quite sure what he'll get himself (and everyone else) into next.

For anyone that's read the later Miles Vorkosigan books, do we ever get to see more of his earlier years? Or is it mostly 'honorable mentions' throughout the story (as in Warrior's, where he talks briefly about his previous year on Beta when he was younger)? Just curious - because I'd love to know how things were patched up between (view spoiler)[Cordelia and her mom to the point where they would send Miles to stay with her for such a long time. (hide spoiler)] Also just curious about Beta in general.

I.e., Bothari... (view spoiler)[really glad I read Barrayar prior to Warrior's bc I had a mixed view of how Bothari's mental condition was handled at the end of Shards. I know that Bujold addressed that, while Bothari had mental/emotional issues, the rapes he committed (as well as whatever other orders he followed) under Vorrutyer were, at their root, a manipulation of those issues at the whim of Vorrutyer. Still, there's a lot of prejudice still that all people suffering from split personalities and similar mental health issues are automatically violent and I've yet to read a series (in this genre) that really takes into account the depth of trauma that can go into causing such issues. I'm just at the part of Warrior's where Miles and Elena are getting more answers about Elena's mother/Bothari's past and that's certainly very sticky. So, I'm waiting to see how that turns out of course and I guess I'm a bit surprised (and glad) that Bujold was able to condemn Bothari's actions while still keeping a viable strain of sympathy for his background and continued struggle with his mental/emotional state. I don't know that I've seen this kind of character arc written in a similar way in this genre. (hide spoiler)]