Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the novel....

Furies of Calderon by Jim Butcher

The first book in the Codex Alera series. See The Codex Alera discussion hub for more info on the series and pointers to discussion of its other novels.

I'm about 80% done.

I found it interesting that although the structure of the world is conceived as ancient Rome in military, government & social structure, that doesn't make it feel significantly different from most other sword & sorcery except in terminology. There's a little more emphasis on the "steadholt" as having a great hall for really big gatherings of the locals, though even that reminds of The Bear & The Nightingale.

There are Slaves, Citizens, and "others", also very Roman.

I'm thinking of reading it. Progress will be very slow, which I regret. I'm a fan of Dresden.

I had no idea the "furies" (or is that furries?) were inspired by Pokemon. (Thanks for the research notes, Andrea.) The spirits reminded me of Tanya Huff's Sing the Four Quarters, with similar elemental spirits. I gradually figured out that the spirits were more attached to specific things; I think the fact that the local stream was named "Rillwater" was when the coin finally dropped. Not sure how that applies to the air furies (can you "own" a hunk of atmosphere?)

Apparently just about everyone has a fury or two.

I tried to make a list of the crafts / furies:

Aircraft
Earthcraft
Woodcraft
Watercraft
Firecraft
Metalcraft

These also seem to have side-effects: Watercrafters major in healing & can sense emotions, thus making them truthtellers, too; Firecraft can induce fear; Aircraft lets you hear & see distances (and conceal oneself? Not sure if the Knights Aeris do that themselves or if a second crafter helps.) Earthcraft is good for tracking and also seems to have some emotional/sexual side-effect. Metalcraft seems to provide stamina?

Poor Tavi doesn't have any furies. I assume before the series is over he'll discover one – probably the biggest, baddest fury of them all.

Anyone else think Fade = Hodor ?

G33z3r wrote: "I found it interesting that although the structure of the world is conceived as ancient Rome in military, government & social structure, that doesn't make it feel significantly different from most other sword & sorcery except in terminology."

I think that's why I also enjoy reading historical novels, they are like reading fantasies just without the magic.

G33z3r wrote: "Poor Tavi doesn't have any furies. I assume before the series is over he'll discover one – probably the biggest, baddest fury of them all."

I'm nearing the 50% mark, if I make a prediction about Tavi my guess is he'll be like the Last Airbender, capable of handling all furies. He definitely exhibits a kind of inherent sensitivity to the world around him, like how he could track his sheep

Must admit it makes me think of the first or second Xanth book where the main character exhibits no magical talent, but in the end, (view spoiler)[his talent was in fact nullifying magic which was considered to be a very powerful talent indeed. (hide spoiler)]

oops didnt realise when were starting the book. is it too late to join in or can you join whenever? i started reading this book but got sidetracked and confused, it was interesting though from what i remember

Bryce wrote: "oops didnt realise when were starting the book. is it too late to join in or can you join whenever? i started reading this book but got sidetracked and confused, it was interesting though from what..."

By all means, join in. We're just starting.

I'd like to register an annoyance at the killer Bs: Beritte, Bitte, and Bittan. When I read, I find it hard to tell these names apart, since I don't sound-out names; they're more like patterns, and these B–tt– are awfully close. Bernard at least doesn't have the double-t.

PoVs: Amara, Issana, Tavi, Bernard, & Fidelias. I could do with fewer. Not sure why Fidelias, his infrequent PoVs didn't seem to add anything. Maybe it's clearer in later installments.

G33z3r wrote: "I'd like to register an annoyance at the killer Bs: Beritte, Bitte, and Bittan. When I read, I find it hard to tell these names apart, since I don't sound-out names; they're more like patterns, and..."

YES! At least these are pronounceable. I quit one series that was full of ones with apostrophes in them that I think are supposed to look Elvish or something (Ae'lynth or something). The story was pretty good, but I couldn't keep the characters straight.

G33z3r wrote: "I'd like to register an annoyance at the killer Bs: Beritte, Bitte, and Bittan. When I read, I find it hard to tell these names apart, since I don't sound-out names; they're more like patterns, and..."

Who is Bitte? :) Maybe I've got them so confused too that I missed there was a third variation (or they show up later, I'm about halfway).

Found it interesting that most names are "made up" except for Bernard for some reason.

And then some names are Roman-sound like Fidelias but no everyone's, though I suppose that would be true in Rome too, only those who were from Rome probably had the whole Latin sounding name, perhaps Fidelias is from the capital, or at least his family was.

Andrea wrote: "Who is Bitte? :)..."

The Bernardholt cook (she's always in the kitchen), possibly the chief servant or slave. She cauterizes the wound in Bernard's leg when he first returns to the steadholt. I assume she's Old, since that adjective often precedes her name.

Andrea wrote: "And then some names are Roman-sound like Fidelias but no everyone's, though I suppose that would be true in Rome too..."

The ancient Romans were conquerors, and used Citizenship as an incentive to pacify and integrate their conquests. So if the Calderon Valley was once an Aleran conquest, they could all have traditional names from the region.

Fidelias & Amara, the Cursors, seem to be the major latin names for most of the story (And later a few minor characters such as Giraldi, Pirellus, & Pluvis Pentius at Garrison, though they all take orders from Gram; and some unseens such as Gaius Sextus & Araris Valerian). Not sure about "Isana".

Aldrick seems to come from elsewhere in the Empire. Bernard has a Fredric in his household, not sure of the relationship, rest of the Valley has Kord, Aldo, Otto, and Warner. So, the Valley is Germanic-themed?

Ah yes, Old Bitte. Which as I'm writing it is too close to Old Bitty for comfort...

Does anyone else picture Bellatrix Lestrange when they read the scenes with Odiana in it? :) Just all kinds of crazy evil.

And I'm seeing a little bit of classic Butcher I'm familiar with from The Dresden Files, where he tends to beat up his protagonists and yet they keep on going. (view spoiler)[ I mean Bernard *died* and then he went out to fight Kord & family. Tavi battles a Moa bird, survives a fury storm, gets to lie on his bed for a little while, then he's out the window being hunted by some bad guys, and had to fight Kord & family. He's now in the clutches of the Marat on the verge of entering into a Battle of Wits. (hide spoiler)]. I always have to wonder when Butcher's characters sleep. At least when Stephen Donaldson did a crazy one-after-another series of events in one of his Thomas Covenant books, he actually had them sit around a river to clean up and relax for a day, even though the end of the world was almost upon them.

Andrea wrote: "Does anyone else picture Bellatrix Lestrange when they read the scenes with Odiana in it? :) Just all kinds of crazy evil...."

I was picturing more Harley Quinn. :) The latter parts of the book may shave some of the edges off.

"Battle of Wits" turns out to only be an accurate description if by a Wit you mean a giant Denebian slime spider. :)

Andrea wrote: "Does anyone else picture Bellatrix Lestrange when they read the scenes with Odiana in it? :) Just all kinds of crazy evil...."

BTW, Odiana is one of several characters who are a little extreme.

Bittan & Kord are two others. There's Evil and then there's Stupid Evil.

Pluvis Pentius (who you'll meet in the 2nd half) is another such caricature personality.

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Does anyone else picture Bellatrix Lestrange when they read the scenes with Odiana in it? :) Just all kinds of crazy evil...."

BTW, Odiana is one of several characters who are a lit..."

Definitely finding the villains tend to be a bit evil for the sake of evil (you know the kind that will cackle with wringing their hands together devising ways to kill kittens and torture children), except maybe the Marat but perhaps they are not so much villains as pawns. Though again, even as "savages" they are kind of extreme, it's one thing to bond with dangerous animals and run around in little to no clothing, it's another thing to eat your prisoners alive. Not sure what "strength" they were supposed to get by eating some girl they manage to catch, wasn't like she had any fighting skills. It felt like an excuse to just gross out the reader and a couple of the characters in the story.

Though I'm getting to the parts where Odiana at least has an excuse for being the way she is. Harley Quinn is a good comparison too, I recently saw Suicide Squad, Harley even has a love interest to constantly drape herself over.

I just met Pluvius before I stopped reading last night. He's that advisor guy from Disney's Mulan

Not sure why I'm trying to map the characters other ones, but I'm sort of having fun with it. Not saying Butcher did anything wrong in having some stereotypical characters in his book, most books have a couple anyway, though he might be hitting a few too many since we're starting to really notice. Plus his book definitely came out before Suicide Squad did, so that version of Harley may be based on Odiana after all ;)

Andrea wrote: "Not saying Butcher did anything wrong in having some stereotypical characters in his book,..."

It isn't so much that they're stereotypes as they're caricatures of stereotypes.

By the way, since you've read thru chapter 29 now....
(Spoiler thru chapter 28) (view spoiler)[
I seems to me the whole reason for the Steadholder meeting at the start of the book (chapter 4 or so) is bogus. Kord's son Bittan is accused of raping Warner's daughter, Heddy. Kord is prepared to kill Warner to prevent the truthfinding by Isana. (And when that fails, he seems prepared to kill Isana for the same reason.)

But, we (& Isana) learn in ch 28, from Aric, that Bittan didn't rape Heddy, (Alric & Heddy were caught In flagrante in a consensual — between themselves, not their parents — act.) Clearly Bittan knows he didn't do it, so he has nothing to fear from the truthfinding (even if he & Kord don't know Aric was involved. Apparently Bittan was named by the witness. Mistaken identity?) And Heddy clearly knows, too, and must know the truthfinding will reveal that, too.

Having watercrafters being able to sense lies really changes jurisprudence. It may not be necessary to even hold a truthfinding, since just the threat of it can provoke a confession.

So, yeah, maybe it's reasonable Aric doesn't want to confess to daddy Kord, and maybe Heddy would prefer dear old dad Warner not know she was a willing participant, but surely she'd rather tell dad in private than have Isana find it out in front of the whole valley, or worse, let dad get into a duel of honor with Kord over it. And if Bittan knows he's going to be exonerated, why is he so keen to murder Warner or disrupt the meeting or kill Isana to prevent the truthfinding.

Jus' sayin'
(hide spoiler)]

I have found that reading Butcher's books too carefully can really ruin the experience. I'm not sure audio is going to work out, either. He's pretty wordy. I can skim with text which is required occasionally, IMO.

I'm a little disappointed that the good guys are so good & the bad ones so bad. It's been a while since I read one of his books & I'd forgotten how much he overdoes that.

It is an interesting world & type of magic, though.

Jim wrote: "I have found that reading Butcher's books too carefully can really ruin the experience. I'm not sure audio is going to work out, either. He's pretty wordy. I can skim with text which is required oc..."

Excellent summation of the book, Jim. And I didn't know you have such subtle tastes in reading. :)

I don't think 'subtle' has ever been used to describe me before. Cranky & opinionated, but not subtle.
:)

Jim wrote: "I have found that reading Butcher's books too carefully can really ruin the experience. ..."

That would seem to be a difficulty for a book like this where the reader is invited to wonder & speculate about some things...

E.g., what's the deal with Tavi. Not just that he has no furies, but why was Isana's first question for Amara (ch 16), “Have you come for the boy? ... Are you here to take him?” Now, why would Isana worry that the Emperor's Cursor come to some sheepy hamlet looking for Tavi?

E.g., what's the deal with Princeps Septimus & Araris Valerian? It's the only event from Alera's past mentioned, the death of Princeps Septimus coincidentally(?!) during the last Marat invasion of the Calderon Valley.

If Butcher is going to ask us to wonder about such mysteries, his plot has got to be solid. (If you're not trying to be mysterious, it's easier to forgive the odd plot hole.)

By the way, I didn't see the traditional fantasy map in Furies of Calderon (at least not in my ebook edition.). There is a map from later books in the series, though, that I once dredged up for the Imaginary Geography Quiz:


(Enlarge)

Calderon Valley is the inset lower right:

G33z3r wrote: "what's the deal with Tavi. Not just that he has no furies, but why was Isana's first question for Amara (ch 16), “Have you come for the boy? ... Are you here to take him?” "

Exactly!! Do we even know who his parents are? Is Gaius going to be his father in the end? That is clearly key to the story so one expects that mystery to carry over a few books at least, but yet, he doesn't build it up. There's that one line from Isana and the fact that he has no furies to indicated he's at all special.

BTW, my copy had a map. It wasn't a first edition though, maybe got added later. In fact I can't find the edition on GR to match my page count. I should have been done about 50 pages ago instead of needing another 120 or so still to read :)

Jim wrote: "I have found that reading Butcher's books too carefully can really ruin the experience. I'm not sure audio is going to work out, either. He's pretty wordy. I can skim with text which is required oc..."

I have to suspend my disbelief till it has been strangled to near death in some Dresden books, seems I need to do that here too. The over the top non-stop violence seems to be pretty common in his books. I mean I'm at the point where (view spoiler)[ the Marat are attack Garrison, and not only are there insane numbers of them, but then you're like, oh by the way, that was just the kids, the adults are coming in the next wave (hide spoiler)].

However in the Dresden books that over-the-topness built up book by book to the point where I got really attached to the characters so I just sort of shrug when someone drops a building on Dresden and he gets up and keeps fighting, defeats the bad guy, has to run across the city and battle someone else within the hour, because at this point, I'll read anything with that character in it, however absurd.

But here, it's almost from page 1, I haven't yet had a chance to care that much about anyone to ignore unrealistic action.

But as Jim said, interesting world building, and I want to keep reading. For sure I'll be back next month.

I'm kind of sorry that I read this again. I had good memories of it, but my eyes hurt from rolling them so much. I've really gotten grumpy & picky in my old age. I won't be reading any further in the series. Sorry folks. I really tried.

Jim wrote: "I'm kind of sorry that I read this again. I had good memories of it, but my eyes hurt from rolling them so much. I've really gotten grumpy & picky in my old age...."

The suck fairy got to it?

I'd be interested in reading your top eye-roller.

Is it that you know the conclusion and no longer buy the build-up?

Andrea wrote: "Exactly!! Do we even know who his parents are? Is Gaius going to be his father in the end?... There's that one line from Isana and the fact that he has no furies to indicated he's at all special."

How far have you read? I have a theory based on later events in this book (haven't read the rest), but don't want to influence you if you haven't finished.

(view spoiler)[I suspect Tavi is the son of the late Princeps Septimus, to whom the Memorium was built, which makes him the heir to the throne (and a threat to current emperor Gaius Sextus). Araris Valerian was Septimus's bodyguard, and now his mission is to protect Tavi by pretending to be the halfwit slave Fade (that last was pretty clear from his duel with Aldrick at the end.) Probably born shortly after Princeps Septimus died in the previous fight with the Marat? Valerian faked his death so he wouldn't have to answer questions.

Gaius may suspect Valerian's identity (is that why he insisted on buying the "slave," Fade?) And why Isana doesn't want to tell Tavi about the history of the old battle and Araris Valerian, and why she's uncomfortable sending Tavi to Academy.

(I couldn't find a description of Tavi's face, but there's a pretty elaborate description of Princeps Septimus in the scene in the Memorium. I'd like to see if they match, suggesting a familial relationship. It'd explain why the status of Princeps Septimus is described in such detail :)

As to mom,... could be Isana (there aren't many other female candidates; Old Bitte?), but I don't think so (is she old enough to have a 15 year old son?). As a further reach, suppose Tavi's mother was a Marat woman (thus explaining his lack of furies. Mom's genes.) ? Maybe Princeps Septimus had an affair similar to the Tavi/Kitai bonding? The child entrusted to Bernard & Valerian to keep hidden from assassins of the throne. (Will Gaius Sextus turn out to be a bad guy?)

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. (hide spoiler)]

Yes, the suck fairy visited because I do know that Butcher was just too obvious in too many places. On my first read, I kept hoping for twists, but wasn't terribly let down when they didn't come since there was so much more to find out. This time around, there wasn't.

A lot of the decisions didn't make sense. Staying a slave girl & yet having things work out which I just knew they would: no tension, little sense, & nothing more to see. That was one of the main ones. Too much of this is forced & predictable. I've reread some books & find something new or am entertained by flow, twists, & turns. Nothing here to do that, though.

Jim wrote: "Staying a slave girl & yet having things work out which I just knew they would: ..."

Early on, I was wondering if the collar couldn't be removed, maybe Fidelias had the key? Or, maybe it was magical? You obviously wouldn't use collars to mark slaves if they could just take them off like cheap jewelry. But then later Amara assumes command as a Cursor and no mention is made of the collar. It seemed like there should have be a beat where she took the collar off, but the only mention of "collar" in the latter part of the book is Kord's discipline collar on Odiana. It's a forgotten detail.

So...if Isana can basically drown Bittan and a couple of Marat warriors why couldn't she do anything against Kord (view spoiler)[ while in that warehouse at the end? There was no fire circle there. Instead we play hide and seek in the dark when she could have just suffocated him since his fury seemed to be blocked by the wood in the floor (hide spoiler)]

The discipline collar was different from a regular slave collar. I wonder if slaves just didn't take them off for the same reason Jews didn't remove the yellow star during Hitler's reign, because if you were caught without it the consequences were dire? And the original Romans didn't need slave collars to own slaves (that I know of) and there was no visible difference between a slave and a slave that just bought his freedom. So I'm not sure how they kept track of runaway ones or recognized them on sight.

Their slavery was also different from the American one, people would often sell themselves into slavery knowing they could buy back their freedom, to get some money for their family, a kind of loan paid back by labour. And often a slave could be considered a part of the family. Though I'm sure there were also slaves that were treated as, well, slave labour and it would suck to be them.

Finished the book last night, turned out I had less left than I thought since there was a sample chapter of some other book at the end :)

In response to G33z3r's spoiler theory:

(view spoiler)[
Tavi is the son of the late Princeps Septimus - Yep. Hope you also caught the fact that the Marat girl's eyes went green to match Tavi's and then that grey cloaked man who visited him in his bedroom had "pale green eyes". And of course the convenient match in his age and the death of the Princeps.

Araris Valerian = Fade - I figured out Fade was more than he appeared pretty early on, of course that didn't necessarily make him someone otherwise mentioned in the story, just someone watching Tavi. Aldrick definitely confirmed it though. I'm pretty sure Gaius recognized him and wants him as Tavi's bodyguard. Or if not outright recognize, he suspects something.

Isana clearly knows who Tavi is (hence why she was afraid a Cursor would take him away), and when Gaius said "your...." and she jumped in with "nephew!" I have to wonder if she is either actually his mother (some pretty girl the Princeps encountered and had a fling in a barn somewhere) or is unrelated and just taking care of him. Either way pretty sure she's not his aunt otherwise didn't need the nephew hesitation if it were actually true. Bernard either doesn't know or he's better at pretending he doesn't :) Though he'd definitely notice if his sister had a child.

Interesting theory about being half Marat and that's why he has no furies. My theory is that he has some furycrafting "curse" on him to prevent him from showing how powerful he actually is, the First Lord is really powerful, even compared to the powerful people of the Calderon valley. So maybe they needed to hide that to keep him secret? He stands out without any powers at all, but then people dismiss him as a cripple rather than as someone special.

I wonder what the First Lord knows about Tavi. I mean if Isana was worried someone would come to take him away, then she must assume that someone in the capitol knows about him, and it would be the First Lord who would send a Cursor.
(hide spoiler)]

In a way, it's a similar kind of read as The Warrior's Apprentice. Unbelievable series of events, fairly flat characters, non-stop action, teenage boy main character, and occasional really dark and serious moments (slavery, torture, even rape themes).

But on the whole, I enjoyed the worldbuilding. And unlike Jim, I still don't know what's coming next so I have stuff yet to figure out.

Must admit I always get a little annoyed with stories where half the main characters die and then two-thirds of those somehow actually survive, this being true for the protagonists you want to have survive and the antagonists who you are rooting for to get beheaded. When an author does that you completely lose any sense of suspense when a character goes into battle, you know they won't actually die, it becomes a joke. They might kill thousands but you know the named characters will survive, the opposite of the red shirts on Star Trek.

Andrea wrote: "Bernard either doesn't know or he's better at pretending he doesn't :) ..."

Yes, Bernard conversations on the matter seem pretty ingenuous, so I'm betting he doesn't know Tavi's true origin, just Isana (though Isana & Bernard seem close; tough secret to keep.)


Andrea wrote: "I'm pretty sure Gaius recognized him and wants him as Tavi's bodyguard...."

You assume Gaius means Tavi well. If he's really heir to Princeps Septimus, Tavi could be Gaius's rival for the throne, or the nucleus of yet another revolt. But, I have to admit Gaius is being portrayed as a benevolent sort of despot. And I think someone said Septimus had no heirs, thus the Fidelias/Aldrick/Aquatain revolt.


Andrea wrote: "I always get a little annoyed with stories where half the main characters die and then two-thirds of those somehow actually survive,..."

The "obscure death" trope. Villain falls off the cliff, disappears in the mist. Some authors would wait until the next book in the series to tell you he just happened to land on the back of a passing giant eagle.

Tag. I haven't started the book yet, but hope to finish by the end of the month.

this book is confusing me. it seems the more that is explained the less things make sense. enjoying it though and should be finished in time. out of curiosity when is the start date for the group read for book 2 in this series ?

Bryce wrote: " out of curiosity when is the start date for the group read for book 2 in this series"

A month from this one, so March 11

Wasn't a fan of this book. My review: The first half or so of the book was slow, but it picked up some in the middle. The last battle dragged on far too long, with too many small details that didn’t enhance the story at all. The idea of the furies is a cool one, but it was severely underexplored. The prose was usually serviceable, but there were more than a few instances of questionable word choice.

I may still attempt the second book, because reviews seem to indicate it's better and because I tend to like fantasy books centering around a school.

How many of you plan to continue reading the series?

Not me, I'm no masochist.

I'll keep going, but then I tend to be a completionist, a series has to be pretty bad for me to abandon it. A book has to be the worst thing ever written for me to abandon a book part way through, I've given up on a book maybe twice.

I didn't find this one was *that* bad, it certainly has it's flaws but it also has some positives that make me want to keep going.

i actually enjoyed this one. yes the pacing was slow since all the interesting stuff happened in the last 20% of the novel but other then that i really enjoyed it and thought the end battle was well done since you saw most things that happened in detail meaning there are no unexplained bits. my only other issue then pacing is that you would have characters drop out after a cliff hanger and appear a couple of chapters later usually leaving slightly annoying cliffhangers. have not finished yet but looking forward to seeing what happens next

The cliffhanger chapter thing is definitely Butcher, he does it all the time in Dresden. In fact it kind of works, makes you keep reading and it's hard to put the book down since most people tend to stop reading at chapter marks. It works a little differently in this one though because in the Dresden book there is only one POV, so the next chapter continues directly where the last one left off, whereas the multi-POV in Codex Alera means you have a wait a couple chapters to get that cliffhanger resolved.