Banned Books discussion

I have here two articles, both of them by the journalist Jesse Singal.

the first talks about a similar situation to BLOOD HEIR in which a writer withdrew his YA novel from publication a month(!) before it would have gotten published.

the second one kicks off a series of two or more articles by Singal. it alleges and provides proof for, the existence of a blacklist maintained by an agent called Barry Goldblatt, who represents YA and children's authors. Goldblatt has made a list of writers he considers racist. he appears to have confirmed the existence of the list in a tweet.

* https://reason.com/archives/2019/02/2...
* https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/ya...
* https://bgliterary.com/

Barry Goldblatt smacks of McCarthyism (and indeed National Socialism) with his black listing of authors simply because Kaiser Barry thinks they are racist.

Who is Goldblatt and what is YA?

I have my own lists too, but they are all private and not public. In my opinion Barry Goldblatt is publicly using his lists to tarnish authors he personally thinks are racist, and in one of the links Ria provided all there was were the book covers so he does not even really explain why he considers these books racist.

Censoring based on perceived biases is draconian and stupid.

@Sandi: if you click on the website and articles I provided, that will explain the significance of Barry Goldblatt.

@Ann: in response to your earlier post, Twitter has 326 million monthly users.

https://www.omnicoreagency.com/twitte...

even a miniscule percentage of Twitter users would amount a lot of people. more importantly, it doesn't take long to tweet, compared with, say, my typing this.

also, librarians can't order books unless they get published in the first place. if you look at the books that Goldblatt has had a hand in publishing, those look like some high profile books. not some marginal books put out by an obscure publisher.

an opinion piece on YA censorship that doesn't come from REASON.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/op...

@Ann: I recognize that bots operate on Twitter. regardless of that, many people use Twitter. it has vast influence. as I said, it also takes little work to use, compared to, say, a blog post.

Goldblatt may or may not maintain such a list. regardless, Twitter mobs exist. I just pulled up another opinion piece from PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY with little effort.

http://blogs.publishersweekly.com/blo...

I uncovered this by literally entering "YA Twitter mob" on a seach engine. (I use the Ecosia search engine.)

@Ann: I don't see what the origin of the phrase has to do with anything.

yes, I linked to two opinion pieces. I did so because, while you may not agree with the conclusions made by their authors, they do indicate that authors have cancelled their books after pressure on Twitter.

put another way, I have said, "this has happened and it should not happened". the opinion writers have also said, "this has happened and it should not happen". whereas you say, "has this really happened?" you can draw your conclusions as to the rightness or wrongness, but I can't have a conversation with you if you won't accept the basic premise.

I think you won't accept the premise because it contradicts the way you think the world works.

Ria wrote: "@Ann: I don't see what the origin of the phrase has to do with anything.

yes, I linked to two opinion pieces. I did so because, while you may not agree with the conclusions made by their authors, ..."

I think the articles you have shown do present that there is a huge amount of pressure and legitimate fear present for and among authors, made even more problematic because the USA especially (even with a constitution supposedly guaranteeing freedom of expression) also has a rather bad track record even currently, even today, of special interest groups trying to get books censored and banned from schools and library shelves, even from university classrooms and often sadly succeeding.

When the Harry Potter books are banned because someone thinks they promote witchcraft and a school board in California actually bans the dictionary because it contains swear words, it is no wonder that authors are leery and react with fear if and when they are attacked on social media or if their work is publicly presented online in a list that supposedly only contains racist titles (and unfortunately, with these kinds of lists, any defence by the affected authors will of course be then seen and taken by the list makers as justification of their viewpoints).

ANN wrote: "@Ria What is a "YA Twitter Mob?" Nobody around me in the real world knows what that is--not even the most passionate people who work with YA or teens. That is my point--it's a fabrication, conceive..."

No one is calling you a Nazi! Wow ...

ANN wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "ANN wrote: "@Ria What is a "YA Twitter Mob?" Nobody around me in the real world knows what that is--not even the most passionate people who work with YA or teens. That is my point..."

And I am German and would never use that word except on individuals who are Holocaust deniers.

@Ann: if you would like an apology from me because I assumed things about you (which I did), then you have it. recently someone online assumed things about me, which pissed me off, so I apologize.

you say nobody in the real world that know you of has heard of YA Twitter mobs. sure, that doesn't surprise me. if I went to my local children's bookstore (yep, locally we have a store that sells only YA and children's books) or one of the librarians in the YA room at one of the local librarian's, they might well not have heard of them. sure.

but I have wager that YA authors, agents and editors will have heard of it. people in publishing who deal with YA books, sure. just because you hadn't heard of a thing, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I had heard of them prior to this because I care about free speech and take a particular interest in free speech issues.

repeat: just because of a thing, does't mean it doesn't exist.

@Ann: I think you want to maintain your picture of the way the world works. if evidence might overturn that picture then you consider it insufficient.

yes, Goldlatt's list might never have existed. certainly a possibility. equally a possibility: it exists and the other agents lied and said it doesn't. why treat Singal as less credible than the editors?

for consistency's sake, it would make more sense to say, "we can't know for certain either way."

you also, I notice, say "'supposed' mob" and not "mob". if you read the evidence I think that they satisfy the conditions of a mob.

yes, I used collusion deliberately, because it does have political connotations. I do regard this as politically-motivated censorship. you can work on the politics of a society by acting upon its culture, to put it simply.

a number of the issues you raised falls under the category of whataboutism.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words...

that means that they have no bearing on the issue at hand. for the record, though, I never call or called anyone "radicals", still less "extreme liberals" (an oxymoron in any case, because liberal means not extreme).

@Ann: you can criticize my grammar if you like. it wouldn't bother me at all. I know I do use sentence fragments at times but I know when I do it. I also write short paragraphs so as to break up walls of text.

I stand by what I said about consistency. either admit you have come to .a conclusion or adopt an attitude of real skepticism and neutrality.

whataboutism, does not belong to any particular group or any particular person. anyone can engage it, usually it gets used by accident.

in answer to some of your other points, Jesse Singal doesn't writer/publish/agent/edit YA novels (or any novels), let alone communicate regularly with those who do via social media. (note that I said "regularly"!) they also perhaps do not know about his articles.

so you used this example of getting threatened over your views on the Second Amendment. how a person/people get revenge so you'd regret it?

one, they'd have to commit murder or manslaughter.

two, they'd have to find out where you lived or, at least, find out other personal info like your phone number, where you worked.

three, they'd have to feel motivated to do so enough to put in the effort to do all these things and maybe end up in jail. which doesn't mean that they might not act, but probably not.

contrast that the following scenario: you belong to an online community. you have written a book that others find bothersome for political reasons.

they don't have to break the law to pressure you. they don't have to find out your personal info. then can use moral blackmail. "nah nah nah, you've written a problematic work. nah nah nah, bad person, you have to recant and cancel!" no laws broken.

what happens if you don't recant? oh, little things like you have a stain (a large one) on your reputation. you can bring on more Hell and more rancor and sully your already damaged reputation so you can never work in this town again.

yes, I pointed your way to a number of opinion pieces, but I notice you have ignored the fact that the NY Times has published a news article (the one I posted to this forum earlier). the Singal articles also do not count as opinion pieces. you should also explain why you think it likely that PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY know so little about the publishing industry that they would allow a misinformed opinion piece to appear in their journal.

you seem to regard no amount of evidence as sufficient and use the cover of neutrality as cover.

see also this article:

https://www.vulture.com/2017/08/the-t...

you said that I don't want to change my mind, either. well, I would if you provided counter-evidence. so provide it.

at this stage I feel ready to pack up and end this because you have made up your mind and won't listen.

@Ann: Happy St. Patrick's Day to you, too. I like snakes, though!

I respect your wish to keep discussion civil. I can honestly say that I did not intend an acerbic tone, prior to today I may have, though. (can't remember.)

at any rate, I have no more interest in conversing further, for the reasons I have given.

Sandi wrote: "Who is Goldblatt and what is YA?"

See the first post about who Goldblatt is. YA stands for young adult.

This thread was starting to get personal but it looks like it petered out. This is a reminder to keep things civil please. If you need a refresher about what this means, please see the group guidelines.