Jane Austen discussion
Group Read: Mansfield Park
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Character Discussion: Aunt Norris
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Rachel, The Honorable Miss Moderator
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Aug 30, 2014 11:27AM
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This post is written in such a way that it can’t be fully understood unless you read the preceding spoiler-alerted post. Sorry, I don’t know how to put a spoiler alert on a post.I absolutely think the use of both names was intentional—especially because they were used in the same book—and probably readers at the time would have picked up on them, as well as other elliptical references to the subject. The last time I read MP, I was on the lookout for references to it; the only explicit one I found was that when Sir Thomas got home from his trip, Fanny asked him directly about the trade. Pretty ballsy of her! Jane Austen does not say what he answered, only that the other people in the room weren’t interested.
It also seemed to me that we were supposed to see parallels between Fanny’s situation and that of the aforementioned unfortunates. She has no money of her own, she can’t direct her own future in even the smallest detail. She is at the mercy of her captors, so to speak.
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I absolutely thin..."
Interesting info, Qnpoohbear! I agree, Abigail, that the combination of the names definitely suggests intent on Austen's part to implicitly comment on a sensitive issue. And your observation about Fanny is spot-on.
As far as Aunt Norris goes, her treatment of Fanny is reprehensible from a very first reading of this book. But reading it again, you notice how no one says anything about it. Everyone must be so used to it that only Edmund probably notices it, and respect for elders must be such an ingrained behavior in that time that it overshadowed even Aunt Norris' cruel verbal abuse.
Rachel wrote: "Abigail wrote: "This post is written in such a way that it can’t be fully understood unless you read the preceding spoiler-alerted post. Sorry, I don’t know how to put a spoiler alert on a post.I..."
I agree that most of the family and people in society general, felt that Mrs Norris' behaviour to Fanny was "due to her station". In her defence (and I really don't like her and feel that her action and behaviour are nasty), Mrs Norris probably received the same type of behaviour from "her betters". When one romances of the good old days - this is one fact which is well to remember. Although, does this sort of condesending and appaling behaviour really not happen today? I'll see and have experienced it for sure.
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Sure, people still treat other people like this nowadays, but I don't think the fact that a child should respect their elders is used as a shield for what basically amounts to child abuse. And even if she did receive the same treatment, that's no excuse for the way Aunt Norris treats her niece.
Abigail wrote: "This post is written in such a way that it can’t be fully understood unless you read the preceding spoiler-alerted post. Sorry, I don’t know how to put a spoiler alert on a post.I absolutely thin..."
Hers may have been a "gentle" slavery, but it still was captivity, wasn't it?
Yes, you can feel the frustration seeping through the pages. She probably had a good brain when young and given a job or a vocation, she might have turn into one of the Great British battle axes which so often changed society or helped great courses. The suffragettes come to mind. But there, married to what reads like a boring and ailing cleric and at her stupid's sister beg-and-call. Isn't there a chance that we might all turn into a version of her, I am afraid, I properly would.
But Mrs. Norris did have enough money to do whatever she really wanted to do. She didn't have to wait on her sister (and she usually just made sure that Fanny did that), but simply hung out at Mansfield Park because she had more scope for her machinations. She could flatter and indulge the Bertram children and convince anyone who would listen to her how needed she was to the household and how much money she saved Sir Thomas when she was there. She even took up residence at MP for the month they were producing the play, ostensibly because they could not have done it without her, but in reality because, of course, she could save herself quite a nice bit of money.If she hadn't been content to be a controlling old biddy at home, she would have been a holy terror at any kind of job or career. I can just see her as the headmistress of a school. Whew!
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Rachel wrote: "Mrs. Norris as headmistress of a school! SHUDDER! What a horrible thought, Karlyne! And you're right-- Aunt Norris wanted everyone to think she was needed even though she wasn't really."I was thinking of A Little Princess; wasn't her name Miss Minchim? Nasty, snobby, vicious woman!
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Mrs. Norris is a truly despicable villain. She's responsible for bringing Fanny into the home and responsible for the way Maria and Julia treat Fanny. She deliberately calls Fanny stupid because Fanny hasn't had the education her cousins have and is ignorant. Mrs. Norris pits the Bertram girls against Fanny from that moment on. She was irresponsible bringing Fanny into that home and not doing anything about it. When her husband dies, she's too selfish and cheap to allow Fanny to come live with her. It's clear Mrs. Norris is the true mistress of Mansfield Park and not her sister. Now I can see the parallel between the two names and I do think it was done on purpose. She's Austen's worst female character. Lady Katherine may be snobby but she's not evil.
Karlyne excellent comparison to Miss Minchin!
And just when I'm thinking that Mrs. Norris could never have had any other kind of character, could never have grown into a better person (and I'm not even a pessimist!), Austen gives us this:"She [Mrs. Price] might have been just as good a woman of consequence as Lady Bertram, but Mrs. Norris would have been a more respectable mother of nine children, on a small income." Hmmmm. What would her character have been if she'd had no time to think of herself, I wonder? I don't see her as ever being warm and loving, but maybe she wouldn't have devolved into cold and vicious, either. It definitely gave me food for thought!
Karlyne wrote: "And just when I'm thinking that Mrs. Norris could never have had any other kind of character, could never have grown into a better person (and I'm not even a pessimist!), Austen gives us this:""She [Mrs. Price] might have been just as good a woman of consequence as Lady Bertram, but Mrs. Norris would have been a more respectable mother of nine children, on a small income." Hmmmm. What would her character have been if she'd had no time to think of herself, I wonder? I don't see her as ever being warm and loving, but maybe she wouldn't have devolved into cold and vicious, either. It definitely gave me food for thought! "
I think Mrs. Norris would whip those 9 children into shape so that no penny was spent unwisely. She'd have them turning their dresses several times, and using the children as unpaid labor. She would have treated at least one child the way she treats Maria and Julia and one more similar to Fanny. She's definitely the type to play favorites. I think she would still be scheming and place as many of her brood as she could with the Bertrams.
If she weren't so devious, I would feel bad for her because she wants to be needed, but she wants to be needed in such a way that makes her wholly repugnant to me. Instead of going to live near her sister Price where she is really needed, she sponges off sister Bertram because sister Bertram is too lazy to get off her chaise and do anything. It's easier to be a sponger and direct the household of a lazy woman than direct the household of a sister who is every bit as strong minded as you are.
Qnpoohbear wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "And just when I'm thinking that Mrs. Norris could never have had any other kind of character, could never have grown into a better person (and I'm not even a pessimist!), Austen giv..."It is very true that she could have been of real use to her sister Price, but she would have had to part with some of her money and spent a lot of time in hard labor to bring them up to scratch, whereas at the Bertrams she could make a big impact without expending much. My original opinion stands: nasty woman!
Karlyne wrote: "My original opinion stands: nasty woman! Indeed!
Karlyne wrote: "And just when I'm thinking that Mrs. Norris could never have had any other kind of character, could never have grown into a better person (and I'm not even a pessimist!), Austen gives us this:"She..."
Mrs Norris is an energetic woman without enough to do. managing a large family on a small income would have given her an outlet for her energies. Nowadays, she woukd have a career, she'd be a bank manager or a headmistress or something with lots of people to boss about. but with no children and no career she has nothing to do but meddle with her relatives and boss Fanny about.
Norris is mean-spirited too.
