Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the classic science fiction novel...

The Gods Themselves by Isaac Asimov
(1972)
Winner of the Nebula and Hugo Awards for best SF Novel of the Year.

Rachel wrote: "Need to finish it and the Hugo novelettes in time for The Gods Themselves which has the ugliest cover I own I believe. ..."

Which edition do you have? I have the 1972 paperback:

Which isn't attractive, but ugliest? Have you browsed Randy's "free space opera books" page lately? ;)

Ugliest I personally own I think. I’ll link a photo next time I check in the computer- but it’s the one I have on my currently reading shelf....

I have no doubt that there are thousands of uglier covers. But this is a Hugo winner! 😉

Oh my phone just loser and yep that’s the one. Guess I don’t have many ugly books left lol

Now that I've re-read it, I'm trying to understand that cover. I guess the foreground bottom head is meant to be a para-universe triad, though I can't imagine where the Emotional turned into a saber-tooth tiger. And the rest is.... I got nothin'.

The newer ebook seems to have gone with illustrating part 3, on the moon, which is at least a recognizable SF trope. :)

As a random comment, I always thought the quote referenced in the title was "Against madness the Gods themselves contend in vain." It's from a German play about Joan of Arc, "Die Jungfrau von Orleans" (The Maid of Orleans) by Friedrich Schiller., so I suppose there can be variants in translation. Poking around the internet I also found "Against ignorance..." as well as "Against stupidity...", though the latter seems the most popular.

G33z3r wrote: "Now that I've re-read it, I'm trying to understand that cover. I guess the foreground bottom head is meant to be a para-universe triad, though I can't imagine where the Emotional turned into a sabe..."

I've got the newer cover, must admit the one you have is...trippy, was LSD big when that edition was published? :)

I've made it through the "stupid" section -> kept my interest and set up the scenario, wasn't anything terribly special but it was well written, and I've seen reviews where I shouldn't take this as the best Asimov can do kind of thing.

Then made it through the "god" section -> very interesting aliens, in fact it didn't bother me that we puttered around with no real connection to the overall story arc until the last few pages really, just because the concept was so interesting (though at one point I started wondering when we'll get back to the main plot line, family life of the triad notwithstanding), and while part of the twist ending had crossed my mind, I didn't go all the way with it so still nicely surprised me.

Just started the "contender" with people bouncing about on the moon, not yet sure how it connects to the rest of the story yet other than Lamont wanting access to it in the first section.

I enjoyed the "stupid" section -> academic rivalry, turf wars, and most of the "fictional science" of the story, and the "Electron Pump" exchanging of matter between universes to a net apparent energy gain on both sides. Nothing amazing, but a solid piece of "golden age" scifi writing.

When we get to the "gods" section -> I thought it dragged. Asimov wants to introduce us to the para-critters a credible alien species. He comes up with the idea that the "softs" have atoms that are more spread out because of the stronger strong interaction, and thus living matter can pass through each other; and they consume energy directly from the sun rather than using plants as an intermediary. The triad's reproduction via Rational, Emotional & Sex Addict "genders" – OK, maybe genders with strong personality traits. But the social bickering of Odeen, Tritt & Dua just bored me. Also, even on first reading, the first "twist" ((view spoiler)[that the softs are larval form of the hards (hide spoiler)]) seemed clear early on. The more detailed element of the "twist" ((view spoiler)[that Odeen, Dua & Tritt were, specifically Estwald (hide spoiler)]) was a surprise, I suppose, but not especially significant.

But ultimately, what do we make of the "gods" section? (Do I need a spoiler.... eh (view spoiler)[It provides the origin of the "FEER" and "PUMPBAD" dissident messages, but what are we to make of that going forward? That the Odeen rationality completely consumed Dua's emotional dissent about destroying another para-universe and its inhabitants? The paras, having bored me for 50 pages, seem to just drop out of the story again in an unsatisfying, unimpactful way (hide spoiler)])

I'll get to the contender section presently, after others have caught up.

Working through the ‘stupid’ section today. For me this one drags a little. I guess it’s the info dump aspect? But I’m almost to where the sections go linearly and I’ll bet it picks up then.

This is my first read so I’m going to avoid the spoilers. Funny that it seems some enjoy the first section more than others.

It's interesting that for the most part, the three sections don't really have much to do with each other. The pump of course connects them all but is almost a side story in the latter two sections (one is life as a near incorporeal being, the other is society on the moon). Have about 50 pages left so I should be done today.

It just so happens the Clarkesworld issue I'm reading now has a short Luna story (when I converted them to epub I forgot to remove the magazine name so I picked that story by random chance as I couldn't see the title!), which takes place in about the same timeline, so reading the two at the same time is confusing but also interesting to compare two authors' takes on what a lunar colony would be like.

I've actually had to get the audio of this. Which works for me since I am trying to read 3 other books. =) I have just downloaded it so while I am working today I'll be listening.

Saw one Goodreads review post this:

Isaac Asimov rarely wrote about either aliens or sex. In response to critics who complained about these omissions, he wrote a book about alien sex. Rather, a book whose middle third is mostly about alien sex. (Mostly.) The other two thirds of the book tell one of the "purest" and "hardest" science fiction stories I've ever read.

I had to admit while I was reading the second section, I wondered why there such an emphasis on the alien sex part. Maybe that's why, people complained and he went "here, a whole third of a book, happy now?" :o)

Even more interesting, what do people think about this qualifying as Hard SF? Even the alien sex is exploring the "what if" of slightly modified rules of physics in a theoretical but still possible parallel universe and explaining then explaining how it is all plausible given that premise. And of course the pump itself, what life on the moon would be like and the effects on humans, etc. I'm still missing that BINGO slot after all.

Or, because we haven't yet proven parallel universes exist, nor do we know it's possible to interact with them even in this indirect way (there's still handwaving as to how the aliens reached out to us in the first place) is it in fact Soft SF?

Andrea wrote: "It's interesting that for the most part, the three sections don't really have much to do with each other. The pump of course connects them all but is almost a side story in the latter two sections ..."I was definitely surprised that the third section introduced new protagonists even after returning home to our original universe. (view spoiler)[I suppose the first few chapters of referring to Denisov as "Earthman" were meant to leave the question of whether we'd come back to Lamont specifically. But he never behaved like I think Lamont would have (less pushy), so by the time Denisov was introduced by name, I was glad to be assured it was a new person. (hide spoiler)]

I liked the "stupidity" section. Though the topic might bore some, I often find stories that include bureaucratic or academic politics to be relevant and interesting, though they also tend to make me angry, so the other sections were probably more relaxing reading.

Re: the "gods" section, I agree with G33z3r that the first twist seemed obvious to me, and I was also surprised by the second twist. (view spoiler)[ And, in the second case, taken aback: the reveal was a mild shock, and it's nice to be surprised by an author, but the implications about personality were troubling. Estwald seemed to have much . From what we gleaned of his interactions and objectives, he didn't seem to embody a personality melding of the triad at all. Dua & Odeen both seemed at least somewhat "humanitarian" in the concern for other intelligent life. Are we supposed to conclude that the transition to hard one is indeed a kind of death, the personalities and goals of before eradicated? Or does Estwald represent something we're supposed to have recognized as latent in -- perhaps Tritt's focus on personal loyalty and legacy bolstered by Odeen's intelligence and Dua's insight. (hide spoiler)] Overall, I liked the exploration of the alien species. However, it bothered me that some characters seemed reduced to their sexuality. The whole second section is basically a sexual coming-of-age story -- if it's a significant theme worth the longest section of the book, what does it mean that we know nothing about the sexual development of Lamont or Malinowski (beyond the fact that Lamont once dated someone who was at least somewhat interested in a linguistics lecture). I think the novel recognizes Lamont has flaws, but I also think it holds him up as a hero, without giving any attention to any non-work-focused relationships. And it bothers me that the story seems to put a lot of faith in gender essentialism. There are some aspects of Dua & Selene's characterizations that are somewhat feminist (at least, notably non-misogynist). (view spoiler)[ Ultimately, though, I'm left with the sense that the writer finds all females inherently more emotional, less rational and objective, than males. Selene isn't dumb -- she's smart enough to make a decent lab assistant -- but I get the sense that it would never cross the author or Denisov's mind to have her be a co-author on one of those papers. And thumbs down on the "experimentations" of the very end. I'm not necessarily against Denisov and Selene as a couple; I even think the book suggests recognizing the personhood of women is important and that Denisov has the high ground versus Lamont for being less hubristic and more willing to share credit. I thought the "artificial insemination?" "of course" exchange was kind of funny. But alas it just couldn't stop there ... (hide spoiler)]

Hillary wrote: "I'm left with the sense that the writer finds all females inherently more emotional"

Have to agree, it was written in 1972 so maybe that movement was really just getting started, and certainly SF was more directed towards men as readers. It seemed cliched that Dua was the "emotion" of the triad and as such pegged as female. On the other hand, he did take a stride forward and made Tritt, pegged as male, to be the parental and to even have the children gestate inside him (and he was pretty emotional too, how could you not around kids). On the other hand, he did equate parentals with being not too bright, leaving the only intelligence for the rational male.

Same with Selene, she couldn't be a physicist/scientist, only an Intuitionist, meaning she couldn't do the math or whatever but she could have gut feelings (i.e. she does emotional science?). That whole concept was weird to me and under explained, not sure why it was even a thing in this book.

So. The emotionals are all female gendered... the rationals are males huh.

Rachel wrote: "So. The emotionals are all female gendered... the rationals are males huh."

Technically, the para-critters don't have male/female, they have rational, emotional, & parental; but Asimov gives his thoughts away by using "she" for Dua and "he" for Odeen.

OTOH, Asimov's robot stories brought us Dr. Susan Calvin, chief robopsychologist for US Robotics, one of the iconic female characters of early SF not noted primarily for wearing a skimpy costume or needing rescue.

I was disappointed with the contender section -> it's OK starting off, and Asimov does a decent job creating his version of Loonie culture*, but it's a too little convenient Denison manages to create exactly the energy-producing device that cancels the Electron Pump's negative effects. That means never having to confront the negative long-term side-effects of the Electron Pump, which really feels like a cop-out. (Also not clear why his solution forces everyone to finally admit Hallam was overrated.) It is classic Campbellian Golden Age "science to the rescue" SF.

Also, the quote that's the basis of the book's title and section titles implies the story will end in disaster. E.g., Neville should succeed in suppressing the Cosmeg Pump and getting the Electron Pumps for the moon, just because he hates going on the surface.

*Though Asimov echoes Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress in placing is Moon dwellings underground, Heinlein put his Loonies underground because surface radiation was dangerous to long-term health. Asimov's Lunarites, on the other hand, only seem uncomfortable with the surface because of agoraphobia, which they learned because they were underground, without the compelling reason for being underground.

About halfway (which means halfway through the gods themselves) and right. Is it feels like a story about gender - poor Dua being berated, put down, generally treated horribly b/c someone who is emotional dares to enjoy thinking and questioning things. Gods forbid someone wants to do something different from their assigned role (kind of in part one as well).

I am hopefully assuming this was purposeful on Asimovs part - that is the point he is making in this section (aside from whatever epiphany our main triad will have?)

Just starting - I think I'm going to like it.

So it really is three novellas exploring the same idea. The middle one being the best in my opinion

Still not happy about the way females are portrayed but it was still fun - d I was actually moved by the middle section. Great aliens!

Rachel wrote: "So it really is three novellas exploring the same idea. The middle one being the best in my opinion..."

I felt there should be a 4th section, back to the para-verse. There they are, in the "gods" section, planning unapologetically to make our sun go nova; then in the "contend" section, Denison figures out how to balance the Electron Pump with the Cosmeg Pump so the sun doesn't nova. Your move, Estwald.

I've read this book or at least I think I've read the whole thing but for some reason all I recall is the three gendered gelatinous aliens.

That’s because they were by far the best part!

I enjoyed the first part probably the most. The second dragged, and it took me way too long to get invested in the characters, and when it finally happened it was lukewarm. The third was interesting, but felt more like an interesting thought experiment on what a lunar colony might look like than something that connected to the overall story - this connection felt almost pasted on.

It was unclear to me the relationship between Estwald and Dua/the triad. When the triad melted and became Estwald, did Estwald have memories of each of the triad? Does Estwald incorporate the personalities of the triad? In particular, the ending is unclear - Dua's goal, as Dua, was to communicate with humans to get them to stop the Pump in order to save themselves. Does this goal continue when Dua is a third of Estwald? If so, it seems likely that Estwald would stop the pump on their end, perhaps even risking the species' survival. However, given the continued operation of the Pump in the human's universe, it is clear that this didn't happen. In this case, what happened to Dua's motivation? The ending of this part felt too abrupt.

Ryan wrote: "It was unclear to me the relationship between Estwald and Dua/the triad. When the triad melted and became Estwald"

It was very abrupt, but the impression I got was that given Estwald didn't care at all for the humans before, it wouldn't change anything given this last merging was the final one. Seems he had his own independent personality and goals, rather than something that was an amalgam of the three original components.

It's interesting because the reader would expect a merged personality, maybe Asimov intentionally made Estwald not the sum of his parts, but his own unique being.

Andrea wrote: "It was unclear to me the relationship between Estwald and Dua/the triad. When the triad melted and became Estwald, did Estwald have memories of each of the triad? ..."

It's implied that Estwald is an exceptional scientist for the project because Odeen and especially Dua are interested in the science, with Odeen explaining things to Dua (apparently the emotionals aren't usually into the rational.)

As I mentioned before, I thought the story could use a 4th section centered on Estwald, especially after Denison neutralized the supernova threat with his Cosmeg pump.