Victorians! discussion

Discuss these chapters here.

I've found this a tricky book to get into. The writing style is so long-winded that I often get to the end of a sentence and have no idea what it said! However, now I'm up to chapter 5 I think I'm starting to get it :)

I have never read any novels by Oliphant before and know nothing about the author either. The first chapters had me puzzled too, but I think I'm finding some foothold now.

One of my initial struggles was to come to an understanding of the tone and writing style. Was I to take the style as serious, ironic, sarcastic or even pedantic? It was like being blindfolded and tossed into the sea. I think I've got my head above water now.

Her father is quite enjoyable as he scurries to avoid much of anything. I enjoyed his comment that "a man is what his habits make him." Lucilla's diva-like character as she "threw herself and her clouds of crape on the carpet at [her father's] side and says "I will give up everything in the world to be a comfort to you" to her father was a great character portrayal. I see lots of chuckles ahead.

The book has a very long introduction. I have read 4 chapters, and we are still getting introduced to the various characters. I think it is longer than even Trollope.

Haha, I love Oliphant's style! It does remind me of the style in Persuasion or Pride and prejudice.

At first I thought Lucilla would turn out a crybaby, sorry for herself a lot. But when her character was finally revealed, I'm really loving it. Even despite the fact that she claims to have no sense of humor.

I actually bought a used Mrs. Oliphant--I think it was Salem Chapel--years ago, in an old Virago Press edition, but somehow never got around to reading it.

With Miss Marjoribanks, to start with, I had a similar experience to Peter; I had some trouble figuring out the tone of the book--somewhere in the wide open space between Vanity Fair and Northanger Abbey. There's definitely an ironic detachment, which is a little jarring to me in the same way it is in Northanger Abbey. I think a lot will depend on how the character of Lucilla is developed going forward.

By the way, if anyone is curious, this book was originally published serially in Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in slightly different chunks than we're reading them in here. The original serial divisions for the first five parts were:

Chapters 1-4 (February 1865)
Chapters 5-8 (March 1865)
Chapters 9-12 (April 1865)
Chapters 13-16 (May 1865)
Chapters 17-19 (June 1865)

So the novel's first readers would have been left in February at the door to Miss Lake's house, and would have had to wait a month to find out what took place inside.

Chris wrote: "By the way, if anyone is curious, this book was originally published serially in Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in slightly different chunks than we're reading them in here. The original serial divisions for the first five parts were:"

Thanks for providing that. It may not be too late for the divisions here to be slightly modified so that they match those of the original publication (so this first section would be chapters 1-8). I love to see where authors of serial publication chose to start and end their sections; for me, it adds a great deal of interest to the reading.

Everyman wrote: "I love to see where authors of serial publication chose to start and end their sections; for me, it adds a great deal of interest to the reading."

Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. There were always some writers who used the serial divisions as a tool to add excitement to the story (Wilkie Collins and Alexandre Dumas were the masters at this). On the other hand, some writers wrote with the volume edition in mind, and just broke up the story wherever they needed to to fit in the magazine. It's too early to tell for me where Mrs. O fits in. But she wrote a LOT of serialized novels (55 by my count!), so my guess is she at least paid some attention to the effects of part divisions.

(Obligatory plug for Mousehold Words, my free online serial-novel-reading Rube Goldberg device.)

I read the beginning lying at night in a hospital bed and found it a very fun distraction. I am enjoying the playful way the author presents her characters. Although out of our time period, there is an element of Lucilla that reminds me of Flora Poste in 'Cold Comfort Farm'.
I'm not sure how seriously we are supposed to take any of it as this is my first novel by this author so I'm completely unfamiliar with her style. In another novel the father's reaction to his fifteen year old daughter setting up tea in the library to offer companionship after the death of her mother would be very harsh.
And also when Lucilla tells the beggar she'll get her a job when Lucilla herself actually does not work, her life project being to create tea parties, seems also a little strange. Although of course in the time a woman who has to beg would never be considered as comparable to a lady of leisure.

Clari wrote: "I read the beginning lying at night in a hospital bed and found it a very fun distraction. I am enjoying the playful way the author presents her characters. Although out of our time period, there i..."

I hope you are feeling better. Something tells me from the early chapters that if humour/ effective satire are the best medicines there should be a bit of Mrs. Oliphant in every medication. I'm really beginning to get into the rhythm of her writing and it's delightful. I hope you enjoy it too.

Chris wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I love to see where authors of serial publication chose to start and end their sections; for me, it adds a great deal of interest to the reading."

Sometimes it does, and sometimes..."

Between Trollope and Mrs. Oliphant that's one huge amount of writing.

Peter wrote: "I hope you are feeling better. Something tells me from the early chapters that if humour/ effective satire are the best medicines there should be a bit of Mrs. Oliphant in every medication. I'm really beginning to get into the rhythm of her writing and it's delightful. I hope you enjoy it too.

Thank you, Peter, it is a lucky choice for me this month as it reads so easily and is written with such a light touch, perfect for when you're not feeling well, or waiting around in hospitals.

I like the comparison of Lucilla to Flora Poste from Cold Comfort Farm that Clari made. I've been trying to put my finger on just what seemed so familiar about Lucilla and that could be it. That combo of confidence and management, pious good intentions with unacknowledged self-interest, makes for an interesting and different sort of heroine.

Jane wrote: "I like the comparison of Lucilla to Flora Poste from Cold Comfort Farm that Clari made. I've been trying to put my finger on just what seemed so familiar about Lucilla and that could be it. That ..."

I agree. I have not read a character quite like Lucilla before. I'm wondering, however, if Mrs. Oliphant can keep the character fresh and the momentum up for the length of the novel. Hopefully, there will be a few surprises on the way.

FWIW, in case anybody should miss me in the discussion, I have decided not to read Miss M with the group because of the decision to post all the chapter threads at the beginning. I don't want to restart a discussion that has been discussed exhaustively before, and I know there are points on both sides, but with a book this long and some posters already posting several weeks ahead, it looks to me as though the discussion will quickly become so spread out that it won't have the quality I look for in a GR discussion.

As I said, I don't want to reopen this issue, but since I had started posting in the discussion and won't be any further, I just wanted people who wondered why to know why.

Everyman wrote: "FWIW, in case anybody should miss me in the discussion, I have decided not to read Miss M with the group because of the decision to post all the chapter threads at the beginning. I don't want to r..."

sorry to hear that, as someone who is posting ahead of the dates, I always come back to check on earlier threads and look forward to the discussions that emerge.

Everyman, I am also sorry to hear that you will not be joining us because I truly value your insight. I understand your position because it would make for better discussions. Clari checks earlier threads but so many do not.
I just recieved the book yesterday and will be late in joining. I hope you change your mind.

Diane wrote: "I just recieved the book yesterday and will be late in joining. I hope you change your mind.."

I hope so too, Everyman, I always enjoy your insights and perspectives. Especially as this is the first month for a while I've been able to join in the book club. At the moment I think that I am the furthest ahead in the reading schedule, so I suspect most people will be commenting along the timetable as you prefer.

I'm glad you're book has arrived, Diane, and I hope that you'll enjoy it. Compared to many other Victorian novels, I'm finding it a very quick and charming read thus far.

Thanks Clari

This book is an easy read. I am actually listening it to it on audio. I am not able to stop because I am curious about the next chapter. But I do look back on all the discussions so far, and I do add when I have something to say. I am not a very regular contributor, though. I understand your position Everyman, but I really wish you would join us. I always enjoy your opinion on the ongoing read.

Having finished the first eight chapters, Mrs. Oliphant reads to me more and more like Trollope. The setup in particular is very Trollope: a newcomer steps into an established society and makes waves in some way, and all of the other characters are forced to react to it; this is the basic plot of The Warden, Barchester Towers, The Small House at Allington, and The Way We Live Now.

I think the real test, for me, will come later in the book. Trollope's big weakness, to me, is in the narrative arc. When his books have a strong journey and a definite conclusion--like The Way We Live Now--I very much enjoy them; but sometimes he just seems to chug along until it's time to stop, and the conclusion feels forced and unsatisfying--like He Knew He Was Right.

Until then, however, I'm quite enjoying the prose and the characterizations. I wonder why the author fell out of favor?

Chris wrote: "Having finished the first eight chapters, Mrs. Oliphant reads to me more and more like Trollope. The setup in particular is very Trollope: a newcomer steps into an established society and makes wav..."

I am not so familiar with the range of Trollope works, but it is a beautiful set up to have a new character to enter an established society to observe and cause raises.

It is interesting how authors and various works of art fall in and out of critical favour. Do you think maybe comedy and wit don't always age so well?

Clari wrote: "Chris wrote: "Having finished the first eight chapters, Mrs. Oliphant reads to me more and more like Trollope. The setup in particular is very Trollope: a newcomer steps into an established society..."

I know from painful experience that it is difficult (or impossible!) to try and explain a joke to someone who does not get the joke. It may well be a problem of aging poorly.

I continue to wonder if Mrs. Oliphant can keep up the wit and charm of L. or will the humour crumble over the length of this book. I have not read any of her work before, so I have no template to go by.

I keep reading phrases that are very Oscar Wilde like. I enjoy Wilde, but always was glad his work was not too long. Short, perceptive, punchy and then finish seems best suited to his tone and style of work.

Chris wrote: "Having finished the first eight chapters, Mrs. Oliphant reads to me more and more like Trollope. The setup in particular is very Trollope: a newcomer steps into an established society and makes wav..."

I have read the Barchester novels and the two recent Trollope's on this site. That's not many in comparison to his entire output, but from my point of view I too felt his books just chugged along. To me, even most of his major twists, character revelations and dramatic scenes seemed mostly bathed in the colour gray. Perhaps its my love of Dickens' bubbling nature, Hardy's fatalistic gloom or the penetrating characterization of Emily and Charlotte Bronte that leads me away from ever truly embracing Trollope as a "favourite" novelist.

Peter wrote: "but from my point of view I too felt his books just chugged along..."

Have you read The Way We Live Now? That's the one Trollope I've read that I felt had a real narrative drive; it's like the best parts of Trollope mixed with just enough Dickens or Thackeray to really get the story moving.

Chris wrote: "Peter wrote: "but from my point of view I too felt his books just chugged along..."

Have you read The Way We Live Now? That's the one Trollope I've read that I felt had a real narrative drive; it'..."

I have not read The Way We Live Now but will put it on my "to do" list which is actually rather short. Thanks for the recommendation Chris.

Jumping in on the Trollope discussion (as one fairly new to this group), Mrs. Oliphant's style seems to me different from Mr. Trollope's (I am talking language and I am trying to figure out if I can quantify my 'feel'.) My favorite Trollope is The Warden and then a close second would be Barchester Towers. I ADORE his description of the warden, this humble, Christ-like man whose unearthly concerns are beyond high and low church politics. That being said, I don't find Trollope in a class with Dickens in powers of description or in spinning a spell-binding tale. --- But onto Mrs. Oliphant ... I have never read anything by her before, but I confess her portrayal of Lucilla is mildly getting on my nerves. I understood from the moment I first met Lucilla, that she was a head-strong girl who was a force to be reckoned with, but now, it's getting old. I am in chapter 11, so slightly ahead of schedule, but it's a constant description of Lucilla's manipulative powers and how she wields them, all the while she keeps confessing that she just wants to be a comfort to dear old papa. --- There must be more to Lucilla, her feelings, her aspirations, her dreams, her fears ... than reiterating her dream to be a comfort, while pulling strings behind the scenes and boldly in public to try to control the social life of an entire town --- but perhaps there isn't?

What is Mrs. Oliphant getting at here? What am I missing?

Lene wrote: "But onto Mrs. Oliphant ... I have never read anything by her before, but I confess her portrayal of Lucilla is mildly getting on my nerves. I understood from the moment I first met Lucilla, that she was a head-strong girl who was a force to be reckoned with, but now, it's getting old. I am in chapter 11, so slightly ahead of schedule, but it's a constant description of Lucilla's manipulative powers and how she wields them, all the while she keeps confessing that she just wants to be a comfort to dear old papa. --- "

I take the repetition as part of the comic styling and personally I like the charm of it.
I think at one level the characters are not supposed to have any depth, they are created to exist and function in their own small society and perform their comedic roles.
But I believe if you want to explore it, you can look at how Oliphant presents the way a young intelligent woman can function in the Victorian world, she has to work through manipulation of men, she can be queen of an evening party, but she can't be a politician.
The constant repetition (the whole lady doth protest too much thing, and the fact that within the text she is mocked for this by Mrs Woodburn) makes me question what exactly Lucilla does want and expect, the difference between her public life and her hidden private dreams.

Clari wrote: "Lene wrote: "But onto Mrs. Oliphant ... I have never read anything by her before, but I confess her portrayal of Lucilla is mildly getting on my nerves. I understood from the moment I first met Luc..."

Yes. I'm wondering if there is a hidden reason to L's actions, thoughts and comments. Scary thing is, I don't think there is!

To your point about the severe limitations of women the novel does suggest in many ways the fact that L is a very capable, forceful (in a good way) and intuitive personality. In the 19C, sadly, these qualities were not really a woman's ally.

Peter,
I would agree. I am looking for a deeper reason for Lucilla's actions, hoping something will be revealed, but there is something in Mrs. Oliphant's style and repetition that doesn't lend me to believe there is. And while I willl read it through till the end, I fear that what I see is all that is there.

Other question... so if women of Lucilla's talents and intelligence were not well served by having such skills, what skills were useful in Victorian society? I know the answer depends on what women wanted in life, of course, and perhaps Lucilla, who is obviously not unintelligent, is going for all she can have, knowing that it is limited to the domestic and social sphere, but trying to control what it is possible for women to control in that era. (I know for example, that Florence Bascom, supposedly the first woman to get a Ph D in geology in 1893 at Johns Hopkins, had to sit behind a screen for all lectures she attended, so she would not distract the male students... not only was education often not accessible to women, women were not thought capable of the same kind of rigorous intellectual thought, which is why they went to women's schools and had most careers closed to them, apart from that of mother and home maker -- for the middle class and up.)

Lene wrote: "so if women of Lucilla's talents and intelligence were not well served by having such skills, what skills were useful in Victorian society?"

I think the book lightly deals with the fact that for young women their appearance is the quality they most traded on in society. And although this novel does not explore it in depth they would of course have to be virtuous and above reproof in all their dealings. Then their is the talent that Lucilla excels in, the ability to entertain. Girls would be taught skills such as drawing, piano, needlework and would be expected to be able to manage the house for the comfort of the men.
You could read the early scene where Lucilla tries to prepare tea for her father in the library and gets rebuffed as the young girl not yet being clear on the boundaries between the male and female space. The man belongs surrounded by books in solitude, whereas the women chatter together in the drawing room surrounded by pretty things that suit their complexion.

If the gender politics interest you, Lene, you might find that a richer reading than concentrating too much on the characters.

Lene and Clari

The question of how to approach Lucilla (and Mrs. Oliphant) is very interesting. In terms of where Mrs. Oliphant may be coming from perhaps consideration could be focussed on the writing of Mrs. Beeton. Beeton wrote self-help and self-improvement books and was a contemporary of Mrs. Oliphant. A quick Google search will pull up lots of neat stuff about her and her books.

It seems to me that the rather rigid class structure of Victorian England created not glass ceilings as we have today that bar woman from complete freedom but rather cement ceilings. The 19C woman was cast into a cell that allowed little movement or view of what else existed. A rather here you are born and here you will stay and die world.

Even our earlier discussions in the other threads of woman writing under male names or using the Mrs. before their last name gives evidence to the barriers of freedom of not only expression, but freedom from gender discrimination.

It is interesting how most of you view Lucilla differently and find her compeling, and I don't want to take that away, but I would like to discuss her more, or rather discuss Mrs. Oliphant's perception of relationships.

It is as if Lucilla views everything as something to be conquered, and every social move like a chess move. Society has these rules of politeness, of how one must act to preserve decorum, and Lucilla boldly moves within those rules, constantly challenging the status quo, but as she moves into a new move and views her new position, everyone is too polite to tell her she has tresspassed. I am thinking, for example, of how she sits at the head of the table the first morning, and how her father is flabbergasted, but decides not to comment, and so she triumphs, and that quiet resignation on his part amounts to a concession, which allows her to climb in terms of scope and influence. She does something similar with the housekeeper, who also more or less resigns, and it seems that she is constantly overstepping her bounds and find that people in their attempt not to make waves just step aside for her.

What Lucilla and her father lack in my view is not only a bond, but some genuine consideration for each other. I don't see her having any real concern for her papa, and I guess that is what makes her hard to like. She is not really attempting to be a comfort to him. It is just a ruse she uses as an excuse for every move she makes to become more influential. He likewise seems rather indifferent to her. When the mother dies, he is more than eager to send her back to school so he can continue his solitary life. Even the mention of the mother and her death is not so tragic. It is more so a matter of guilt on the part of the father that he does not really miss his spouse more than he ought.

I feel as if Mrs. Oliphant's uinverse is a universe where people vie for position. Politeness is the glue that holds them all together -- that and rank/gender, and that those who know how to move within the spheres of politeness and rank/ gender, like Lucilla, manage to finagle their way to a position of influence because the stronger and persistent personality-- by its very nature-- confounds the timid and unassertive, who are unwilling to call anyone on the mat for fear of breaking the norms, so the stronger and slightly more pushy, like Lucilla get their way simply because others are too polite to resist.

Lene wrote: "It is interesting how most of you view Lucilla differently and find her compeling, and I don't want to take that away, but I would like to discuss her more, or rather discuss Mrs. Oliphant's percep..."

Well reasoned and thorough arguments Lene. I never thought about how by the very act of politeness one tended to slot themselves into a rather confining track and arc of life. I hesitate to bring Jane Austen too far into our discussion but it seems to me Austen deals with similar "limitations" in her writing and yet is still able to populate her novels with far more interesting and engaging personalities and relationships.

Thanks, Peter for responding. I think, seriously, that even today in 'polite America' (I know not all of us live in the US, but I will use the US as an example) we are constrained by politeness . For Example, f you are trespassed on by a person who skillfully maneuvers (with politeness) into a new position, one that you do not approve of because of the shift of balance, it is YOU who are the breaker of the peace if you bluntly call the person on the rug and ask the person to retreat, NOT the person who skillfully managed the trespass in the first place. Much is won by being polite and discreet, and the best way to combat the skillful trespasser is by equally skillfully and politely responding. The person to call foul and make noise and be direct is always considered the breaker of the peace. (Note Russia and Putin politically just now -- similar tactics in the Ukraine).

I love your comparison with modern day life. Also the Putin reference was very apt. I agree with both. I disagree with you though with your opinion that Lucilla and her father do not care much for each other. I think it is more Mrs. Oliphant's Victorian restraint rather that we do not see much affection in the novel. Dr. Marjoribanks wants the best for his daughter. He does not consider Tom or Mr. Cavendish good enough for his daughter. He definitely prefers his own convenience in sending Lucilla back to school. But he being a bachelor makes it the most sensible thing to do. He is aware that Lucilla steps outside limits of a woman's boundaries. He is curious as to how her overstepping plays out and is amused by it. But if she is in any trouble (though she is almost never is) I sure he will step in and help her out.

Good points, Bharanthi. I agree. I think he just doesn't know how to be a more involved parent or really want to, bit of benign neglect. Lucilla, for her part, doesn't really know him very well.