Mystery/Thriller Reading Friends discussion

Part two from chapter twenty-three through Part three discussion The Silent Patient - breaking at approximately 75%
Spoilers welcome.
If the first to post please briefly summarize to guide the discussion.

The Silent Patient Part 2 Chapter 23 through Part 3

Part 2 Chapter 23
Theo and Diomedes discuss the play Alcestis. Diomedes asks Theo what Alcestis feels at the end and Theo suggests joy. Diodes says, “The person you love most in the world has condemned you to die through their own cowardice. That’s quite a betrayal. . .She’s murderous with rage.” Theo asks about allowing Alicia to paint.

Part 2 Chapter 24
Theo talks to the art therapist about allowing Alicia to paint. Alicia doesn’t cooperate in art therapy, does nothing. The art therapist doesn’t like Alicia and agrees to the plan.

Part 2 Chapter 25
Theo tells Alicia about seeing her paintings. He tells her that she’s going to get to paint. “Suddenly she seemed wonderfully alive.” She smiles.

Part 2 Chapter 26
Christian confronts Theo about letting Alicia paint. He says she's seduced Theo and he's giving her what she wants. “She’ll turn on you.” Theo reflects Diomedes thinks the same thing, but Theo believes he’s objective and has boundaries. He goes to Jean-Felix for Alicia’s art supplies. Jean-Felix is scared of bringing the supplies to the Grove. What doesn’t he want to face?

Part 2 Chapter 27
Kathy tells Theo she’s meeting a friend at 7:00. He follows her and sees her meet a female friend. Recovering from his shock, he realizes he’s not relieved, but disappointed.

Part 2 Chapter 28
A room is set up as Alicia's studio. She begins a painting of the Grove on fire. A man and woman are on the fire escape. The woman is Alicia and Theo recognizes the man as himself holding Alicia, either rescuing her or about to throw her in the flames.

Part 2 Chapter 29
Alicia’s neighbor, Barbie, visits the hospital. Theo speaks to her. She says she was Alicia’s best friend. She visits with Alicia in a stream of inane chatter with Alicia sitting silent. Barbie invites Theo to her house to talk about Alicia.

Part 2 Chapter 30
Theo at Barbie’s house across the road from where Alicia and Gabriel lived. Barbie saw Alicia just a few hours before the murder. Barbie believes totally in Alicia’s innocence and tells Theo there was a man watching her. It started a couple of weeks before the murder. Barbie told the police after the murder but they didn’t pursue it.

Part 2 Chapter 31
Alicia stabbed Elif in the eye with a paintbrush. Alicia is perfectly still and silent. Theo says that for the first time he felt afraid.

Part 2 Chapter 32
Theo and Yuri go in Alicia’s studio. The word “slut” is written across her painting in red paint. Theo visits Elif who says Alicia didn’t attack her because of defacing the painting; it was because Elif told her Theo loves her.

Part 2 Chapter 33
A staff meeting to discuss the attack. Alicia has been put in seclusion. Stephanie says it’s for Alicia’s and others’ safety. Christian agrees with them. Diomedes says therapy has destabilized Alicia: Theo was trying too much too fast. The future of the Grove is at stake. They discontinue Alicia’s therapy with Theo saying she’s unreachable.

Part 2 Chapter 34
Theo sees Alicia a last time. Her drugs are upped. Alicia gives him her diary.

Part 3 Alicia’s Diary
August 8
Alicia is in her kitchen and sees a man outside across the road. He’s in a shadow, wearing a cap and sunglasses. She realizes he’s been there several minutes. She leaves the kitchen for 20 minutes and when she comes back the man is gone.

August 10
Alicia went to the play, Alcestis with Jean-Felix. Alicia is intrigued by the play and Alcestis’ resurrection. After the play Jean-Felix tells her that she needs to stop trusting the people around her. He walks away rather than elaborate. Alicia thinks “people around me” must mean Gabriel.

August 11
Alicia sees the man again in the park. She realizes she’s only assuming he’s watching the house. He could be watching her.

August 13
The man is there again. When Gabriel gets home she tells him about it. He thinks it’s Jean-Felix and wants to call him. Then he asks Alicia if she could be imagining it. He’s just humoring Alicia and that makes her angry.

August 14
Alicia goes for a walk and sees the man in the park, staring right at her. She tries to take a picture of him, then suddenly he’s gone. She goes home, closes all the blinds, and turns off the lights. When she looks out he’s standing in the street looking up at her. Barbie drops in and Alicia tells her about the man. Barbie wants Alicia to tell Gabriel (she told Barbie she hasn’t told him) or go to the police. But Alicia has already decided not to say anything more to Gabriel. Later that night Alicia can’t sleep. She looks out the window and sees the man. She wakes Gabriel but the man is gone and Gabriel is annoyed. Alicia sits awake all night.

August 15 and August 16
When Gabriel finds Alicia has been awake all night he tells her he wants her to talk to a doctor. Alicia goes to see Dr. West. She doesn’t like him. He reminds her that after her father died she thought she was being spied upon. Dr. West insinuates that Gabriel might leave Alicia if he has to go through her having another breakdown. Alicia feels that she has to pretend to be sick to keep Gabriel. The doctor prescribes medicine. At home she pretends to take it but spits it out when Gabriel leaves the room.

August 17 and August 21 and August 22
Alicia has started hiding her diary. There’s no one she can talk to or trust. She’s stopped leaving the house because she feels too exposed outside. She watches the passers-by and looks for the man. She puts Gabriel’s gun in the kitchen.

August 23 and August 24
Gabriel tells Alicia they’re having dinner with Max. Alicia thinks the man watching her might be Max. He’s trying to drive her crazy. Max brings Tanya and is very hands-on with her, but Alicia catches him watching her. Alicia gets Max alone and confronts him about spying on her. He denies it and calls her a crazy bitch. She slaps him. Tanya sees this and walks out of the restaurant. Max is so angry that it convinces Alicia he’s telling the truth.

August 25
Alicia hears a noise outside and sees someone in the shadows. Gabriel doesn’t answer his phone. The man is trying the windows and doors. He’s inside the house.

What was the book we read lately where no one believes a woman because she's had a mental breakdown in the past? Seems to be a common theme in psychological thrillers. Gabriel's lack of sympathy or even-handedness in this section makes me vengefully glad he'll be murdered, presumably by the guy he doesn't believe is there.

It's very odd that the Grove, being such an innovative place, and with Diomedes and his orchestral collection, hadn't previously thought of allowing Alicia to paint. Michaelides is a therapist and knows any practitioner would know there's a difference between art therapy with all the patients and an artist being allowed to paint for herself. Especially an artist who is otherwise uncommunicative. This struck me as a clumsy plot device.

Also it's previously been made a large point that Alicia is always supervised by a nurse. So if she's under constant close supervision, how did the incident with Elif occur? Again, plot device to provide a means of breaking up Theo and Alicia.

It also irritates me that apparently Theo has nothing else to do at the Grove than see Alicia in therapy, perhaps once a day. No other professional contact with other patients. What happened to those once or twice daily Community meetings? He barely seems to have a job. At least it leaves him plenty of time to gallivant around and interview Alicia's friends and relations.

Ann, you mentioned Theo possibly being unreliable and that came back to me when he supposes that Alcestis feels joy when she's resurrected and goes silent. That is a seriously whack interpretation of her silence and I fear for all of his patients if his interpretations are that far into complete obtuse-land. Maybe after that conversation Diomedes realized Theo is a whack-job and that's why he supports terminating Theo's therapy with Alicia.

At the same time, pretty cruel of Diomedes to say Theo was pushing Alicia too far too fast when he's the one who gave Theo --I think it was six weeks.

OMalleycat wrote: "What was the book we read lately where no one believes a woman because she's had a mental breakdown in the past?"

Discussing with myself because you know how I am. . .

It was Hen in Before She Knew Him!

Jan O'Cat, day late-dollar short

Lol Jan O'Cat: thank you for that much needed and appreciated laugh!! I am happy you had that quick discussion, initially I didn't remember it was Hen in our other group read discussion. Good recall!

OMalleycat wrote: "OMalleycat wrote: "What was the book we read lately where no one believes a woman because she's had a mental breakdown in the past?"
Discussing with myself because you know how I am. . .
It was Hen in Before She Knew Him!
Jan O'Cat, day late-dollar short ."

Jan O'Cat: I am right with you regarding Gabriel's dismissal of Alicia's concerns of a stalker, and his heavy-handed pushing her into working with a therapist she distrusted and taking pills she doesn't want. He doesn't seem to match the rosy picture Alicia is portraying of their marriage.
There are two thoughts about the art therapy program at the Grove. The art therapist was callous and unprofessional in her ignoring the potential for Alicia to paint freely and to have her compositions aid in her treatment.
The Grove appears to be more than "an unconventional facility", it appears to be a sham. Diomedes gives up on Alicia's treatment and appears completely unaware of the art therapy option for Alicia until Theo suggests it, worse than a plot device, I think the place is full of incompetence.
Theo runs around doing basically nothing but working with Alicia. Christian is over drugging patients and Elif, poor Elif is yikes, horribly maimed by Alicia when she should have been supervised. I didn't need that mental picture.

OMalleycat wrote: "Gabriel's lack of sympathy or even-handedness in this section makes me vengefully glad he'll be murdered, presumably by the guy he doesn't believe is there.

it's very odd that the Grove, being such an innovative place, and with Diomedes and his orchestral collection, hadn't previously thought of allowing Alicia to paint. Michaelides is a therapist and knows any practitioner would know there's a difference between art therapy with all the patients and an artist being allowed to paint for herself. Especially an artist who is otherwise uncommunicative. This struck me as a clumsy plot device.

It also irritates me that apparently Theo has nothing else to do at the Grove than see Alicia in therapy, perhaps once a day. No other professional contact with other patients. What happened to those once or twice daily Community meetings? He barely seems to have a job. At least it leaves him plenty of time to gallivant around and interview Alicia's friends and relations.

"

Jan O'Cat: Agreed. That was a clear crack in Theo's thinking process. Joy???!! What on earth. I've had my doubts about Theo's competence and I fear for Alicia and these patients too.

OMalleycat wrote: "Ann, you mentioned Theo possibly being unreliable and that came back to me when he supposes that Alcestis feels joy when she's resurrected and goes silent. That is a seriously whack interpretation of her silence and I fear for all of his patients if his interpretations are that far into complete obtuse-land."

Alicia's diary shows she is afraid of a persistent stalker no one else sees, loves her husband Gabriel, fears his brother Max, wants to leave her gallery and its owner Jean-Felix, pretends to take pills prescribed by a therapist she distrusts, has a dysfunctional family, has few friends, and is an accomplished painter.
There are many suspects for someone else who could have killed Gabriel and left her to mourn his death and attempt to take her own life.
Money? Was jealous Max after Gabriel's estate or Jean-Felix after Alicia's paintings? Why haven't they been sold?

OMalleycat wrote: "OMalleycat wrote: "What was the book we read lately where no one believes a woman because she's had a mental breakdown in the past?"

Discussing with myself because you know how I am. . .

It was H..."

I was about to post the answer but you beat me to the punch! Yes, it was Hen.

OMalleycat wrote: "t's very odd that the Grove, being such an innovative place, and with Diomedes and his orchestral collection, hadn't previously thought of allowing Alicia to paint. Michaelides is a therapist and knows any practitioner would know there's a difference between art therapy with all the patients and an artist being allowed to paint for herself. Especially an artist who is otherwise uncommunicative. This struck me as a clumsy plot device...."

This struck me as well. Who wouldn't have thought of that first thing? I guess it was written in so Theo would seem like a genius.

I also had to laugh at your other observations, Jan, especially the one about Theo having no other therapeutic responsibilities except to interview Alicia, and go around talking to all her friends and relatives to get to the bottom of the mystery.

Ann wrote: "nd Elif, poor Elif is yikes, horribly maimed by Alicia when she should have been supervised. I didn't need that mental picture...."

agree, agree, agree. ick.

Ann wrote: "Jan O'Cat: Agreed. That was a clear crack in Theo's thinking process. Joy???!! What on earth. I've had my doubts about Theo's competence and I fear for Alicia and these patients too.

OMalleycat wr..."

I missed this comment by Theo in the listening or I would have had serious doubts about his own mental health. Whack is right.

Ann wrote: "Jan O'Cat: Agreed. That was a clear crack in Theo's thinking process. Joy???!! What on earth. I've had my doubts about Theo's competence and I fear for Alicia and these patients too.

OMalleycat wr..."

totally agree- theo seems to have his own agenda regarding alicia. but they all seem to have some kind of agenda.
it's hard to read a book where all the narrators are unreliable. who can we really believe?

Ann wrote: "Alicia's diary shows she is afraid of a persistent stalker no one else sees, loves her husband Gabriel, fears his brother Max, wants to leave her gallery and its owner Jean-Felix, pretends to take ..."

and how reliable a narrator is alicia? we're being led to believe she is mentally unbalanced, so are her observations accurate or figments of her imagination?
i'm tending to believing her, but who knows? i still think someone else killed gabriel, but who knows?

Excellent point Sherry! Reliability is not a quality I would assign to any character except maybe a couple of the staff at the Grove.
Michaelides has managed to make most characters, if not outright sinister, at least suspect of ulterior motives. Alicia is potentially unreliable too in her silence. Do people always tell the truth in their diaries? I suppose she could believe things as true that weren’t actually there; though I tended to believe her too.

Sherry wrote: "and how reliable a narrator is alicia? we're being led to believe she is mentally unbalanced, so are her observations accurate or figments of her imagination?
i'm tending to believing her, but who knows? i still think someone else killed gabriel, but who knows?
.."

Carol/Bonadie wrote: "Who wouldn't have thought of that (letting Alicia paint) first thing? I guess it was written in so Theo would seem like a genius."

Carol, I thought that as well until I remembered that Theo didn't think of it either until Jean-Felix suggested it. I think it's completely impossible realistically for no one to have thought of letting Alicia paint before Theo's arrival so I'm viewing it as another clumsy plot device. If Alicia had been allowed to paint from the beginning of her commitment then she might have communicated something or made some progress and then, poof, the whole premise of the book wouldn't hold.

Sherry wrote: "it's hard to read a book where all the narrators are unreliable. who can we really believe?"

You're absolutely right on this point, Sherry. It's a large part of what pushes me away from the whole book because everyone, including Alicia, seems to be working an angle of some kind. It's part of that problem I talked about elsewhere of no one seeming to really like anyone else. Everyone is too busy manipulating everyone else for whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. Too busy to have real relationships.

Sherry wrote: "and how reliable a narrator is alicia? we're being led to believe she is mentally unbalanced, so are her observations accurate or figments of her imagination?"

Sherry, I just came to this realization on the previous thread: that even Alicia's diary might not be reliable because she may have expected that Gabriel would read it. It's hard to read a book with no one clear, believable voice.

Okay, I thought I had a clear handle on what was going on with Alicia. Now, I am all confused. It appears that she suffered a psychotic break when her father passed away. Up to this point, I was sure Max was good for her current predicament. The violence Alicia exhibits come in waves. Could it be that she has had a mental defect all along? After all, her mother clearly was an unhappy woman who found a way to end her life to escape her despair.
Theo thought he was making such headway with getting Alicia permission to paint. He is looking for the magic bullet to get her to speak. I honestly believe his obsession with Alicia is a cover-up for his shortcomings. Any other patient he talks to is always in reference to getting insight into Alicia. Is it because he feels like caged in his home life with no outlet?
I am beginning to feel like I am caught in a dream sequence where everything that transpires never really happens at all. We are going to find out that Alicia is a raving lunatic who snapped at the thought of losing the one person she loves unconditionally.

Janice: your comment that you feel you are caught in a dream sequence feels familiar.
The revelations about Alicia’s past muddied the water while Theo continues being much more ‘all about Theo’ and his investigation than appearing to be really helping Alicia.