Think [the box] ing discussion

Is there such a thing as altruism?

Is it possible for a person to willingly (rather than accidentally!) do something completely selfless, which worsens their own life?

A few dictionary definitions:

1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
2. Animal Behaviour. behaviour by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.
1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
2. Zoology Instinctive behaviour that is detrimental to the individual but favours the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefiting its relatives.

A know wikipedia isn't infallible ;) but i thought it may be a worth a wee note to get us started:

"The word "altruism" (derived from French autre "other", in its turn derived from Latin alter "other") was coined by Auguste Comte, the French founder of positivism, in order to describe the ethical doctrine he supported. He believed that individuals had a moral obligation to serve the interest of others or the "greater good" of humanity. Comte says, in his Catechisme Positiviste, that "[the] social point of view cannot tolerate the notion of rights, for such notion rests on individualism. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. After our birth these obligations increase or accumulate, for it is some time before we can return any service.... This ["to live for others"], the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty. [Man must serve] Humanity, whose we are entirely." As the name of the ethical doctrine is "altruism," doing what the ethical doctrine prescribes has also come to be referred to by the term "altruism" — serving others through placing their interests above one's own."

What, are you questioning altruism exists when you have examples in your own post?

Heya Molly, im not sure where ye are seeing the examples? I know there is the example of an animal giving a warning cry, and i can think of other such examples but even here i cant think of any which are utterly selfless (the animal tends to benefit in some way itself) but there isnt an example of a human being altruistic. That is what interests me.

There certainly are examples i can think of of people appearing to be altruistic, but are they really?

yah even mother theresa got a feel good charge out of it
and was trained by her faith to see it as a way to heaven
does it matter if it's true altruism or fake altruism?

*chuckles* Ahhh Maureen, now that is a great response! I guess it doesn't matter really, no, at least not to the beneficiary. Or does it!? (see my other thread on political donations ;P)

Though perhaps it matters depending on the perspective of two sets of people - the one doing the act and the one observing the act.

One example that was mentioned to me today was that of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett - donating vast fortunes to charity means he is very altruistic and a great example of a man. (as an aside does it not seem a little odd naming a charity that you create, as your name.. "Bill Gates Foundation")

Some interesting comments here about Gate's fortune and his spreading of it into the charity

http://www3.sympatico.ca/truegrowth/g...

Now, i am aware that i sound very cynical and indeed negative about this, just like one of the complainers in the above link. I cant justify that at all. Maybe i just need to accept that someone building fortunes on the back of a capitalism (someone else looses for Gates to have won the money in the first place) can be altruistic. I just wonder if he didnt have the money would he still be altruistic?

yah-i was thinking about gates recently too
why not just make these fancy typewriters cheaper?
and do you know how much the friggin software costs?-especially if you are a company and need to license a special application
i made a 10K mistake by choosing the wrong data processing software for my last company
they didn't mind but it pissed me off
yah know if you can lose a billion dollars and not notice it's missing maybe the shit you're selling is overpriced
i'd love to see capitalism go because it perverts any government-that's why i haven't posted there
i don't buy the obscenely wealthy being altruistic
they may not be bad people per se and they may be truely motivated but....
they're still dirty and i've joined their ilk so am aware that every rich person is not a "bad" person but...it's a heavy load

Seek said: There certainly are examples i can think of of people appearing to be altruistic, but are they really?

Depends on how you define it … yes, I know you have the definitions listed; however, few actions are completely isolated from some individual benefit (even the barking dog example) so that what you are really asking is whether or not the sum of individual sacrifice is greater then the sum of individual gain … and that is purely subjective.

So, if a person sacrifices his life to save another … such as the individual who jumped into the freezing Potomac River after the Air Florida plane crashed to save people dying of hypothermia only to succumb to hypothermia himself … is that really completely altruistic or is it as you say only an appearance. What if that person where actually a rescue worker (he was not by the way)? What if the people he was trying to save were actually family? At what point do you state that the individual was really acting in self interest because of some indirect benefit to the group in which he is a member?

Frankly … IMO any person willing to risk their life for somebody else, where or not it is their job, is behaving in an altruistic fashion simply because any indirect benefit falls well short of the individual sacrifice.

Humans ARE animals. If what we call animals can be altruistic so can humans.

molly the problem i have with your argument is that how can we state animals to be altruistic? for this (Animal Behaviour. behaviour by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator), cannot be said as an unselfish behavior but a duty given to a creature that will rather benefit its race rather than itself, and for animals this is a key instinct. yes we are mammals, however there is a great distinction between animals and humans, even in animals there are distinctions, or does a lion act in the same was as a household cat. in simply the way we live and think we are distinct from other animals, it is for this reason we have allusions to animals and do not live in their ecosystem, but our own.

for man, there are times were he will help another or save a life a the cost of his own, but to say these actions as altruistic is shoddy at best. when one helps the poor is it out of good faith or pity, is it to help another or to help oneself (whether in religion's eye or society's). even the act of sacrifice can only be called a sacrifice if one believes they are giving up something for something greater, this very act is deplorable. to give ones life because one wills it as simple a selfish act of will, when one gives it altruistically one could be said to give it selfishly for a higher purpose. the term selfish being satisfactory for an individual but never for the existence of something unknown (i.e. society, religion, sacrificial lambs).

the only question though is would feeling happiness from an 'altruistic' act could be claimed as selfless? i.e. since it could be claimed that one does in act for a selfish gain of happiness.

also, i believe giving one's life to another can't be claimed as altruism for one makes a selfish decision to give there life to protect that of another, but it could be we just have a disagreement with what the word selfless means.