SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

As this is such a short book, I am opening discussion early.

From the first impressions thread, this book seems to have garnered some very mixed reactions!

A few questions, as there are several axes on which I'd like to consider this book:

1. What were your overall impressions?
2. What did you think of the translation? (and if you read the manga or listened to it, please share your impressions of that, too!)
3. What did the language choice say to you about the world? What did you think of the relationship between the Japanese and American soldiers?
4. What do you think the theme or message of this book was, if any?
5. How did it compare to the movie?

I was mostly on board with this, believing that the casual sexism and glibness was all a smokescreen for exploring trauma and fear, but then the incredibly rushed ending came along, with a twist that made absolutely no sense, and I became so frustrated and dissatisfied. Ah well.

I felt at the beginning or maybe half of it, the tone irritated me. Maybe it’s because he curses a lot, it becomes so loud and in anger… And I was surprised by the ending too.

Ever since we selected this (I’ve read it four times already) I’ve been dying to know if anyone else’s copy has an index page that shows what appears to be a different reading order that can still make sense of the book. Does anyone else see that? I’m thinking I may read it this time in the order it suggests.

This is probably a top 10 sci-fi novel for me. It’s so bleak. It’s so strange. I just love it so much.

Wen wrote: "I felt at the beginning or maybe half of it, the tone irritated me. Maybe it’s because he curses a lot, it becomes so loud and in anger… And I was surprised by the ending too."
I would not expect a soldier to avoid using bad words but the frequency seemed to go down with time and it was not as overdone as in the Lies of Locke Lamora. I was surprised by the ending too but I think that was somewhat because I've seen the movie inspired by this.

J.w. wrote: "Ever since we selected this (I’ve read it four times already) I’ve been dying to know if anyone else’s copy has an index page that shows what appears to be a different reading order that can still make sense of the book."
As someone reading the Kindle edition, I don't look at ToC/index much (if ever), so I can't help you there. Maybe Rita's part could be read at the beginning and still make sense.

What I've noticed was one small inconsistency - a character (I believe it was the suit mechanic) was stated to be 158cm at once place and 152 the other time (all within two pages or so otherwise I'd miss it).
And one short segment missing paragraph breaks.

I think the biggest difference between the book and the movie was the setting, so to say. The movie made it look the mimics invaded blitzkrieg-style while the book states this happens some 20-ish years since the initial invasion.

Not a fan of this one. The misogyny was a lot to deal with. We even had the main female character, with more experience, training and skill, killed off so the man can take her place. And he was the one that killed her! That left a bad taste in my mouth.

I didn't understand enough about the Mimics. Where are the javelins shooting out from, exactly? Tell me more about their evolution than a couple paragraphs that basically boil down to "they landed in the water, found starfish and look like bloated, dead frogs now."

I've never liked the Groundhog Day approach to a story. Which, if I had read the summary, I probably would have skipped the book altogether. (I imagine the folks who saw my updates were amused by my realization that I was annoyed early on by what was the entire point of the book.) Going into a group read blind is my preferred method, but it didn't work to my benefit on this one.

Some things I think did work. I liked that the author explored the isolation that our main character had to deal with as the only person reliving this day.

I was happy that even though it was a Groundhog Day type story, it was not overly repetitive.

I thought the translation was excellent. I recently read another translated book that just didn't flow well, and I think that was because of the translation. If I hadn't known, I wouldn't have realized this was a translation. The turns of phrases fit well and there were idioms that were used that likely weren't part of the original text, but were used well by the translator to create the right atmosphere.

All in all, not really a book for me. But, since I read it in less than two days, I'm not upset about it. (Although I am a little upset that the closing scene was him drinking moldy coffee. I had just finished my dinner. Blech.)

The curses are totally the translator's decision. Japanese is very mild when it comes to bad language. I mean, a really bad word is an impolite version of the word "you". There are also so many layers to the language, so in the context, I guess cursing fit the atmosphere and made it more natural for a young, frustrated soldier.

The gorilla references are a common Japanese joke, it really doesn't translate well for western society, especially today when people are more aware and sensitive (towards others as well as themselves), something surprising Japanese people are not, considering how much they care about appearances.

Japanese society right now feels to me like it's stuck in the 80s, there are many things that are unacceptable in today's western society, but Japan has it's own pace and is not as advanced as it may seem. I live here 7 years and I do notice slow changes, like e.g. recently you start to see a few vegan options here and there.

It is still a very sexist society and culture- even in times that homosexual acts were accepted and common part of life (I think until the 18th century), men that preferred it were referred to as "women haters", even though it doesn't mean they hate women per se.

It's very common for female characters to be nothing than eye candy and a possible love interest, especially in the genre this book falls under, and I don't mean sci-fi. Light novels are part of the anime/manga culture in Japan and geared towards younger readers and for the most part meant as a fun, light read, and often they are part of a series.

Anyway, I didn't take the story too seriously, and I thought it was okay, a bit too rushed. The movie definitely fleshed it out more.

Kristin B. wrote: "Not a fan of this one. The misogyny was a lot to deal with. We even had the main female character, with more experience, training and skill, killed off so the man can take her place. And he was the..."

Yeah, this really put a damper on my enjoyment of this one as well. However appropriate it might be in context for the main character to hold those views on women, it's not that fun being reminded there are people for whom women fall into those 3 categories (f***able, homely, gorilla).

1. What were your overall impressions?

Overall, I enjoyed it. I tend to like time loop stories such as "Groundhog Day" or Replay. So many times in my life I wish I had a do-over and the fantasy of having unlimited chances appeals to the perfectionist in me. There's something idealistic about getting to play out the exact perfect day. Also, having played a ton of video games in my life I can see the clear link between mastering a game and what the MC goes through (the afterword makes this connection even more concrete). It was a bit darker and rough around the edges than I'm used to, but I accepted a flawed MC who is immature being just out of high school and facing death, etc. and is in a barracks.

2. What did you think of the translation? (and if you read the manga or listened to it, please share your impressions of that, too!)

I thought the translation was very good, but I'm horribly biased as I know the translator. I checked out the manga, but preferred the novel, I just prefer to have my own images of what's going on and I have a tough time with the right-to-left format.

3. What did the language choice say to you about the world? What did you think of the relationship between the Japanese and American soldiers?

I thought the language was believable for how soldiers, especially ones so young might talk. Not sure on the relations between the soldiers.

4. What do you think the theme or message of this book was, if any?

I think it was largely that "practice makes perfect" and that total dedication to an activity, be it video games or cooking, can transform one into a master, given enough time (which most of us don't have or don't have the patience to stick with).

5. How did it compare to the movie?

The film felt a lot less philosophical and more straightforward action, but I saw it a few years back so would have to re-watch to make a fair comparison.

I finished a couple days ago. Overall, I liked it. I mostly was interested to read it to compare with the movie which I enjoyed. I felt that the development of the character as he discovers, explores and comes to grips with his situation was done well and succinctly. I wasn't as bothered by the twist, since it did follow from the explanation we were given about how the time reversals were working (back up servers). However, I felt like the ending was weak because the MC began simply explaining everything he had figured out for us (during his big fight with Rita), when probably things could have been shown or revealed some other way. Then at the end he became a maudlin philosopher. This may be part of the manga-style way of wrapping things up, but I did sort of wish Rita had killed him instead.

I agree the book has some issues, and military fiction written this century doesn't need the sexism, though I wasn't as bothered by the swearing.

edited to add: I decided the final scene was an instance of "Chekhov's Moldy Coffee," where if you show a cup of moldy coffee in one scene (and even have a conversation about how one character absolutely wouldn't drink it), then you later on have to show someone drinking the moldy coffee. That's just writing rules.

Anat wrote: "The curses are totally the translator's decision. Japanese is very mild when it comes to bad language. I mean, a really bad word is an impolite version of the word "you". There are also so many lay..."

This makes me wonder what Japanese word the translator wrote as "cocksucker" and what other ways it might have been translated.

I thought this was fun, especially comparing it to the movie. My wife is Japanese and also I lived and worked on a Japanese Self Defense Force base for a few years. So reading translated Japanese novels is something I feel like I need to do more of.

This story felt a bit over translated in that it seemed to add more western culture that was really necessary. However, that over translation meant that the story flowed well and I didn't find anything janky.

I'm glad the story is as short as it is because I think the characters and tone were getting a little grating. I expected this to be juvenile since it was written in the manga style. I didn't like the misogyny nor the poor characterization of soldiers, but I wasn't surprised based on Japanese popular culture.

All of that might make you think I didn't like the story, but I did! As an anxiety ridden over-thinker, I find ground hogs day type stories fun. Its a little bit of fantasy fulfillment to imagine being able to go back and try things again. Not that I'd like to be mortally and gruesomely mangled over and over.

The premise is interesting, even if it didn't get fully developed. Terra forming biological weapons aided by nanotech seems like something that I'd like to explore more. The story kept a good flow by not getting to hung up on long battle scenes or repeating itself.

Honestly, as for the final fight, I found myself not knowing who should win. But, based on the video-game philosophy, I think his victory makes sense - after all, you usually just suck it up and kill anything with a red name tag in a game. And maybe a sense of some kind of progression/passing the 'torch'.

I think it did a perfect job for what I expected from it: a short, action-packed light SF.

So I think I came at this one sideways, which made a lot of it palatable to me. I realize that I was really overthinking it, but hello, my name is Allison and that is how I read books.

For me, up until the "twist" this read like a book exploring the repugnant culture of "winning" in wars, how fruitless they are, and what trauma feels like for people coming through it.

I of course did not care for the misogyny or homophobia or cultural insensitivity, but I was still interested in the fetishization of Native Americans, and what constitutes a "light" novel in Japanese culture--they said a lot to me about what stands out about Americans, and what perhaps Japanese pop culture values. I was intrigued to see what was similar in our cultures, and also surprised where they diverged. I always think of the US as the militant, foul-mouthed crop, but as Anna likes to remind me with her crazy Finnish MG stories, that's a perception and I'm not sure we're even best at violence-as-entertainment! God, we have so much work to do.

I thought the end was abrupt, unsupported and stereotypical, but I'd already had so much to chew on and it was over so quickly that I didn't have time to get as mad at is as I likely would have if I'd eye-read it.

On that note, I loved the narrator and the translation. It felt at once gritty and honest. I enjoy anime and this felt very Knights of Sidonia, which I liked a lot. I felt I could grasp it and didn't get the sort of tension I often feel in translations, which, as Paul says, is likely due to over-translating. But it worked for me!

And the narrator read it in a very sardonic sort of voice, so it all felt a bit sly. There always seemed to be a gallows humor moment brewing (until the love story kicks in) and then it was straight up action.

So, I see all of the things people are talking about, and I agree that they were annoying. I guess this was one of those few times that my overwrought ideas actually helped me! I'm like 1 for 80 at this point I think, ha!

Coming at the ending from a different angle, I was thinking about it in video game terms, as the author admits that was a major influence. An iconic video game that I played as a kid, Double Dragon(1987 first released in Japan), featured two street fighting brothers, Billy and Jimmy Lee as they took on an entire gang on their own. At the end of the game, the two brothers end up having to fight each other as the final challenge. It makes sense in a way, the end boss should be the toughest opponent yet and if you and your ally have beat everything else, who could be a better challenge? So from that perspective I can see Rita being the final opponent just because she's been built up to be tougher than any Mimic out there.

Allison was your audio version abridged and if not where did you find it?

J.w. wrote: "Allison was your audio version abridged and if not where did you find it?"

It says unabridged. I listened to it on Hoopla, but it's also available direct from the Simon & Schuster website under the "Edge of Tomorrow" title.

I came to this thread hoping people would be talking about the flowchart at the beginning of the book. What’s wrong with you all? ;) (Just kidding!) Am I the only person who kept flipping back to it and using it to predict how the story would go? I didn’t grasp whether there was any meaning to the shapes or the connectors. I mean, obviously there were loops created by the connectors, but I couldn’t tie them to the story in a tangible way. The #’s and their groupings were meaningful to me, though. I think there was probably a lot more logic behind that flowchart than what I figured out and I was curious if anybody else did better at interpreting it.

As for the story, I enjoyed it. It was fun and fast-paced, a good change of pace from some of my recent reads. I didn’t know this was going to be a time loop story before I started it. Sometimes I like those, sometimes I don’t. It depends on how repetitive the story is and whether there’s any logical reason for it or if it’s just used as a plot device. I didn’t find this to be too repetitive, and I thought the explanation for the time loop was believable enough and the story was mostly internally consistent.

I rated this higher than it probably deserved because I had so much fun reading it, but I did think there were some issues with the story, especially with the ending. My two biggest issues with the ending:

1. My cell phone goes with me nearly everywhere except the shower. However, spending a lot of time in contact with my cell phone has not (yet) caused me to become a cell phone. I can’t call people or send them e-mails with my mind. It's not a perfect analogy, but my point is that I didn’t understand why Rita became an antenna just because she’d fought so many servers.

2. Keiji tells us in the end that he believed Rita knew she had to die, and that this was the real reason she cried when she found out he was looping. Ok, I assume in the first loop she let things play out to make sure she wasn’t wrong. That makes sense. But in the second loop, when she must have known for sure after Keiji told her what happened in the last loop, why did she provoke a long, epic battle instead of taking a more direct approach? While Keiji was tied up for hours fighting her, my understanding was that the battle was still going on with the remaining mimics. Keiji would have been the best person to get out there and help, but people were dying while he was forced to fight Rita. It seemed like selfish and pointless behavior on the part of Rita, and it came across as a contrived plot device on the part of the author to create a dramatic ending.

After getting to the end, I was kind of surprised that this doesn’t have any sequels. There seems to be a lot of room for a continuing story, albeit in a different vein. When the sentient aliens that sent the mimics show up on Earth expecting to be able to inhabit it, what happens? Do they find humans have completely counteracted their devices and recovered their planet? If so, what do they do? Do they find that parts of their terraforming succeeded but that the humans destroyed the last of the mimics in time to keep a good portion of Earth habitable for humans? If so, again, what do they do? Do they try to negotiate to share the planet or do they fight? Do some factions do different things? Or if they discover that humanity is still battling their mimics, only having succeeded in slowing down but not completely halting their progress, what do they do? Do they get down there and help their machines finish the job, or do they stop the process? Do they have long debates about the ethics again now that they can see for themselves what they’ve done? There’s so much more room for story here.

Awesome thoughts, YouKneek! I honestly put zero thought into the flow chart once I flipped past that page in my Kindle. You are way more observant than me.

I also would love to see more about what you mentioned in your last paragraph. That to me would be a far more interesting story.

Thanks Kristin! I often do the same with front material in books, but for some reason that flowchart caught my attention and I stared at it for a minute or two. When I started Chapter 1 and saw that the chapters had sub-numbers, that’s when I realized what the flow chart #’s were about and started paying it a lot more attention.

I put a small amount of effort into Googling about the flowchart after not finding any discussion about it here, but I didn’t find anything substantial. Maybe there’s an explanation from the author or some discussion among Japanese readers that I can’t read or find due to my inability to speak the language.

I generally enjoyed the book. From the book and from reading the discussion, here are some thoughts/comments:

1. Aside from the casual misogyny as expressed by the mostly-male soldiers, which I have no personal experience with but I imagine is at least potentially realistic, I didn't get any sense that women were thought of as any less capable than men.

2. I also don't know how to interpret the flowchart. I'd be very interested in seeing an explanation that makes sense, if any exists.

3. In most other translated works I've read, there have been footnotes and a translator's note to indicate cultural/linguistic differences that don't come across easily. I was disappointed to find this entirely missing. I can't speak to the quality of the translation, but I would be interested to learn if the tone is similar to the original.

4. Can anyone summarize what exactly was going on at the end with regards to the time loop and breaking out of it? It didn't seem well-explained.

Ryan wrote: "2. I also don't know how to interpret the flowchart. I'd be very interested in seeing an explanation that makes sense, if any exists."

The only part that seemed relatively clear to me was the number groupings. The numbers seemed to be grouped within the shapes based on a combination of setting and timeline for those parts of the book. So 1-1, 1-4, 2-4, etc are all contained in the same shape because they all take place on the battlefield at the beginning of the second day. 1-2, 1-5, and 1-8 are all contained in the same shape because they all take place in the barracks just after the loop resets.

1-7 is the only section in the book that I felt didn’t match up with the pattern. 1-7 also takes place in the barracks after the loop resets, so I would have expected it in the same shape with 1-2, 1-5, and 1-8. But that section was also different from the other barracks sections in that it was the one where Keiji killed himself, and it was grouped with 1-6 which was the section where he tried to escape the base. So maybe that shape was about his attempts to break out of the situation he was in.

In normal flowcharts, I believe diamond shapes are supposed to represent decision points. There were two diamonds in the chart, and I could see how the sections in those shapes could be considered decision points, but there were decisions made elsewhere too so I’m not sure if that was the intent. The only two connectors with arrows lead out of these diamonds though, to the same point in the chart. So maybe that was an attempt to express that, no matter what Keiji did, he would end up back at the same position. But none of that was clear-cut to me. The only thing I do know is that I probably spent WAY more time staring at the flowchart than it deserved. :)

Ryan wrote: "4. Can anyone summarize what exactly was going on at the end with regards to the time loop and breaking out of it? It didn't seem well-explained."

I agree that it wasn't well-explained. Below is my best attempt at an explanation, but it has lots of logical flaws. Sorry, this is too long to qualify as a summary, and some of it is background to try to provide context for what happened at the end.

Background
The time loops were caused by the mimics sending transmissions into the past, allowing their past selves to know what had happened and alter their behavior. When Keiji was connected to the server in that first loop where he killed it, that somehow caused the transmissions to get sent back to his own brain too. (The more I think about that, the less logical sense it makes to me.)

So to end the loop, the general steps that Rita explained in section 3-4, were as follows: 1) destroy antenna, 2) kill all mimics being used as backups, 3) destroy the server. This ensured it would be impossible for transmissions to be sent back in time, ending the loop.

Attempted Explanation of the End
At the end, they went through the same process, but destroying the server didn’t solve the problem because Rita’s frequent connection with them had caused her to become an antenna herself. (This is the part of the story that made the least sense to me.) Since Rita was still alive, the possibility for transmissions to the past wasn’t eliminated, and apparently the mimics used her as an antenna to send the transmission. The second time around, the mimics took the attack directly to them because the transmission allowed them to learn who had nearly destroyed them and how.

So their first coordinated attempt to end the loop failed. In the next loop, as soon as Keiji attacked the antenna, Rita attacked Keiji and told him one of them had to die. It didn’t make sense to me that Keiji’s death would help in any way. Either he was also an antenna, in which case they both had to die, or else he was not an antenna and only Rita had to die and Keiji’s death wouldn’t have solved anything. Keiji later speculates that Rita knew she would have to die, so maybe she just said that to help provoke the battle she wanted to have in which she was killed. Also, considering their battle apparently took quite some time, it seems like there would have been enough time for the other mimics to use her as an antenna again, but maybe physical proximity was required and they kept away from them while they were fighting.

Thank you so much for that YouKneeK, that was so helpful for trying to piece things together!

Maybe the complicated explanation of the ending is why the movie went a different way?

Nice attempt, YouKneeK! Unfortunately, there's still a lot left to be explained (most of which you pointed out) before this becomes a story that makes sense. Even the nature of the loops themselves is confusing. The narration seems to indicate they took place only in Keiji's head, rather than events that actually happened but were reversed through time travel. Both scenarios would be hard to adequately explain, I think.

Ryan wrote: "Even the nature of the loops themselves is confusing. The narration seems to indicate they took place only in Keiji's head, rather than events that actually happened but were reversed through time travel."

Yes, we were told the events in each loop were being transmitted back in time via the antenna. Keiji was experiencing the events as memories due to the transmissions he was receiving from the future. No time actually passed; only the final loop happened in real time because no transmission was sent back. Keiji and the mimics gained knowledge and experience from the transmissions, which caused them to make different decisions than they would have otherwise. There wasn’t any time traveling going on aside from the transmissions themselves.

The nature of the loops made sense to me; it’s sort of like a computer simulation except that a very confused human brain was involved in the process without being told what was going on. The technological aspect is pure hand-wavium, though:

1. We were told Keiji received these transmissions due to his proximity to the server when he was killed in the first loop. This makes as much sense as Rita developing antenna characteristics due to her frequent interaction with them in her own loops. I would rather not test my theory as my employer would not be amused, but I suspect that even if my cell phone were to die a horrible death at my hands, I would still not turn into a cell phone nor would I start receiving strange transmissions in my head.

2. If we let issue #1 slide and assume there’s some logical explanation for how Keiji’s brain could be receiving these transmissions, it still doesn’t explain how his brain was able to process them and translate them into memories. They’re being sent from a being that is essentially a computer, and an alien computer at that. If anything, I would expect the transmission to incapacitate him because his brain wouldn't know what to do with it.

In any case, I still thought it was an entertaining story, and I've had nearly as much fun thinking about it and picking apart its logic afterwards as I did while reading it. :)

Alright, I didn't quite catch that the only time travel was through transmissions. That's a useful, if insufficient, clarification. Thanks!

This book was not for me.
It could have been good. If itvhad tried to do something with its two main genres that was more than just recycling generic tropes.
And as others have noted, the sexism was really grating. As was the ending. It was rushed, it didn't make a lot of sense, and that twist? Hard no from me.

I read the manga and the sexism and swearing were quite tame outside of the ubiquitous shape of women in manga. I liked the manga but the drawings seemed a bit basic and dark (in respects to illumination not emotion) so it seemed like it was almost an afterthought version.

The story was good and I think it was easier to pick up on all the antennae pieces with this version.

I enjoyed the book a lot. It's written in an unusual way, which makes it stand out and fresh in comparison with so many others that try and fail.
The explanation for the alien invasion is pretty original imo. Terraforming - and we are the ones to be formed.
Yes, I agree with others here that not everything was logical, but time travel stories rarely are. If you look hard, you'll find logic holes in almost all time-travel stories, because it's a very difficult topic. Even Quantum physicists will agree with that ;)
What truly puzzles me is the sexism some see in the book.
With Rita, we have a very strong female character in the story. She's the best warrior Earth has and much better than the rather whiny main protagonist.
What else do people want?
Only female characters and no male? No rough language?
The book is set on a military camp one day before a battle. There's no pc in such a place.
I honestly don't understand why people get offended about everything. Makes it almost impossible for authors to write believable, realistic characters.

If you watch the movie "NEXT" with Nicolas cage, you can better understand how the signal works. Its not a time loop but rather a potential path into the future. That is how the mimics were winning the battle, they could choose the path that would guarantee them victory however, when the main also gained that ability you now had multiple signals being reset simultaneously. As they main characters kill the other antennae it removes the multiple resets to the 1 possible outcome. If both main characters lived you would have 2 possible futures existing at the same time.

I loved both the book and the movie however, I enjoyed the ending in the book more and would have loved to see FMB and Tom Cruise have their epic fight in the end. The movie was good, the mimic's understood there was no possible victory only defeat and retreated.

The best part was watching him die over and over. It made a close realization of what a soul trapped in an arcade console goes though.

Anna wrote: "...What truly puzzles me is the sexism some see in the book. 
With Rita, we have a very strong female character in the story. She's the best warrior Earth has and much better than the rather whiny main protagonist.
What else do people want? ..."

I'll try to explain some of the things that bothered me about this book:

- women are constantly treated as objects and in the grossest way. The categorzation according to how fuckable women are and especially the repeated use of the word "monkey" to describe women the main character thinks aren't sufficiently hot was very off-putting to me. I guess this was supposed to give the book a military feel, but it really pulled me put of the story.

- Rita is a "strong female character" in the sense that she's "not like other girls". I.e. she acts like stereotypical men and excells at a supposedly "male" job, all while of course being deemed hot by the narrator. There just wasn't enough there beyond that for me, even though we get a bit of a backstory for her.

- Of course the whiny, mediocre narrator gets into Rita's pants. He's the protagonist after all....

- the fact that the narrator realizes he has to kill Rita just after sleeping with her? I'm sure that was meant to be an emotional gut punch, what it was for me was just a very predictable "we need to remove the hot female supersoldier now she's taught the hero what he knows and has even given him sex" move. So, really, what female characters are there for is to be objects for the male protagonist and his story.

- why are there so few women? If the situation is as bad as described AND suits give people so much additional strength, why aŕen't women mobilized for war, too? This is where, for me, the worldbuilding wasn't thought through and the assumption was "war story" = men fighting, women in support roles. (Not that I think having more female characters that are treated like objects would make this book better.)

Tl;dr in my opinion, including a strong female character doesn't make book not sexist if objectification is all that happens to the character and all other women in the book.

This is all obviously very subjective and I guess it's possible the author was trying to subvert some of these staples of how women are portrayed in war fiction/video games, but if so, he did not pull it off, imho.

Mareike wrote: "why are there so few women? If the situation is as bad as described AND suits give people so much additional strength, why aŕen't women mobilized for war, too? This is where, for me, the worldbuilding wasn't thought through and the assumption was "war story" = men fighting, women in support roles. (Not that I think having more female characters that are treated like objects would make this book better.)"

I don't remember if the book gives any specific timeframe when it happens. The fact is, this approach is shifting very slowly and it'd probably take a long time before it's something that happens consistently, so if it happens in the near future, the future might be too near for such a shift on a larger scale.
And it doesn't seem too bad, not as bad as in the movie, as it describes the mimics being still attacking just along the shore.

Lastly, present-time armies might be (due to the fact 90%+ people in them are men) the place with the highest potential for toxic masculinity. Not to mention that when there are hundreds of young men in one place, there are pretty much two things they can make fun of: women and the officers.

Mareike wrote: "- why are there so few women? If the situation is as bad as described AND suits give people so much additional strength, why aŕen't women mobilized for war, too? "

Here I would play a devil's advocate, for I agree with the fact that the book is sexist. Modern armies use weapons and equipment much easier to use by presumably 'weaker' women, but nevertheless the majority, esp. of frontline personnel are men. I doubt it will change radically (approaching 50/50 ratio) within the next 50 years or so.

I'm inclined to agree about contemporary armies. But the fact remai s that we're talking about a scifi setting with scifi weappns and a pretty massive threat to the entire worlds. Even today most Militaries are opening more and more positions - even combat positions - to women because they need them to fill their quotas. So I just find it a failure to think through how things might change in a crisis situation.

Mareike, I guess we agree to disagree then ;)
As others pointed out before, certain things are typical for the military and if you want to make it realistic that's how you show it.
Plus, in the case of an alien invasion that threatens humanity's existence, pc and quotas are the completely wrong way to go.
Besides, you should see the background of the writer, who is Japanese. Japan is a very male-oriented society, that's just how it is. Cultures vary from each other and so does their art.
Nevertheless, Rita's character is a strong woman and there is enough back story for her to make her interesting and plausible. Yes, she acts very cool and "male" but how should she be? More female? Then people would cry sexism because the female soldier behaves differently than the males.
She is tougher, stronger, smarter than everybody else. The hero calls her a "warrior prodigy". Seriously, what else do people expect?
And the twist that they try to kill each other after being intimate is a dramatic one. In which Rita acts more ruthless than the MC.
You even could say that roles are reversed in the story, where Rita plays the part traditionally a male hero would have while Keiji is rather soft.
You can find sexism or any other form of ism in 90% of world literature if you look hard enough.
Oh and, one last thing. Women act exactly the same when among each other. The whole "Sex and the City" concept is based on girl's talk ;)

The fact that a woman has to be “cool” and “more male” whatever that’s supposed to mean, to be “tough”, is sexist. The fact that she has to act like a “man” to be tough or respected, is sexist. The stereotypical portrayal of tough men and soft women is sexist by definition. I think that is what Mareike is trying to explain. We are thankfully moving away from those definitions in the media but this is not a new book, and even if I did like the story, I think it’s important to be able to see the problematic things for what they are, so we don’t repeat them again.

Dawn wrote: "The fact that a woman has to be “cool” and “more male” whatever that’s supposed to mean, to be “tough”, is sexist. The fact that she has to act like a “man” to be tough or respected, is sexist. The..."
You see that you're contradicting yourself here, right? And that's exactly the problem.
You make a female character tough and badass: sexist!!
You make a female character soft and/or emotional: sexist!!
Writers have a hard time nowadays because no matter what, they can't do it right.

You’re not reading what I said. That a woman has to act like a man to be tough is sexist. Rita is praised because she is tough and “not like other women” is what is sexist, as if all other women can only be one other thing - not tough or not like a man, as if all men are tough. As if being tough is not female. She can be tough and soft and feminine and vulnerable and brave all at the same time. A *man* can be tough and soft and feminine and vulnerable and brave all at the same time. The idea that the concepts of strong or fragile have anything to do with gender is what’s sexist. They just don’t, they are social constructs.

Dawn wrote: "You’re not reading what I said. That a woman has to act like a man to be tough is sexist. Rita is praised because she is tough and “not like other women” is what is sexist, as if all other women ca..."

Thank you, Dawn. That's what I was trying to say.

Before we start discussing basic biology I quit here.
Just so much, I believe art should be allowed to portray anything, no matter if people get offended or not.
As soon as we start forcing art to display only one point of view, it's not art anymore.
Cheers!

I don’t believe anyone is arguing for censorship. I think what we are discussing is that if you choose to write things in a certain way — which Is your right — then you also have to contend with the consequences of the reactions of folks to what you’ve written.

hey all, I appreciate that we are having a nuanced conversation but I also see some personal conflict. if something bothers you, can I suggest asking for clarification? i'd hate to see a great discussion falling to ad hominem attacks

I admit I skimmed a lot because I knew what was coming (hubby warned me)...

...but the feeling I got was that Rita couldn't/wouldn't kill herself and couldn't kill Keiji. So she made Keiji kill her. Also implied is the idea of the solitary hero: while Rita was the FMB, she was effectively alone - even with her crew. Keiji will share this same fate - along with the knowledge that he killed the only person who could ever understand him. He has entered Rita's isolated tower and taken her place.

And Rita was one of the (enter best sounding foul language here) heroines I have ever read about. The angel of death. The FMB. She was so awesome.

But what they say is true.
You can make some people happy sometimes,
you can make most people happy most times,
but you can never make all the people happy all the time.

Okay, I have some time now.

I'm seeing a few things that I think are all great and valid, but it seems like there's some confusion.

Here's some questions based on what I'm hearing:

-What do we expect of authors when writing about women in the near future? In fiction? In the far future? How does that change the way you interact with the characters?

-Was the writing of these characters intentionally sexist/racist to make a point or was it the "bias" of the author?

-Are we defining sexism as "excluding/diminishing someone on the basis of sex" or "a bias towards or against someone or their behavior on the basis of sex or perceived gender norms?"

Because I feel like we're having a few different conversations using different definitions, which is a great way to frustrate communication.

We can also move on, but if anyone would like to respond to that element, I'd love to see these questions addressed!

Thank you for raising these questions, Allison. I think they're all good ones with regard to the discussion at hand.
I'm currently away from home doing volunteer work (writing this as I'm on my way to do grocery shopping for 71 people), so I only have limited free time right now, but I'll try to tuck some of it away to reply to all of them in as much detail as I think they deserve as soon as I can.

I don't intend to get seriously involved with this discussion, but I'll just add a point - most of the complaints about sexism in the book are related to the specific language used. In terms of the plot and main character behaviors (barracks soldiers obviously excepted), I don't think there's a basis for sexism here. While the language used is certainly problematic, I don't think it's as egregious an error as sexism manifested in the plot.

Echoing what others have said, I also think it's good to keep in mind that the book is a decade old and written by a Japanese author, both of which are not in line with modern Western conceptions of gender and sexism.

To respond directly to Allison's question about whether the writing was intentionally sexist or not, I would say yes, given the disconnect between sexism in writing (present) and in plot (absent).

I'm not sure I agree that "most" of the complaints are about language used, actually.

So, to set the stage, I define sexism as treating anyone differently on the basis of sex/gender norms. Differently includes benign things (women are kinder, men are funnier etc. being examples of benign sexism.) This means it does not have to be an "intentional" action or statement by someone to have sexist connotations.

(I'd also like to say, I don't necessarily think that people who engage in what is called "casual sexism" to be bad people, necessarily. We all have biases and preconceived notions about all sorts of things that only become a problem when we either act on those biases or refuse to confront potential harm we create once notified of a behavior or thought process that is prejudiced.)

I do think that if we're talking about imagined worlds, it is my strong preference that the author either improve upon humanity by fighting our world's biases, or addressing them in some way. I don't think a book needs to be devoid of "reality" but if we're going to explore reality, let's be real about it. Just because it's a world we "know" doesn't let an author off the hook regarding research or consideration.

For me, I think there's a lot of this book that is intentional--it's highlighting how wild the sexism is, how rampant and unopposed the author perceives it to be in the society he's sort of parodying/mimicking. And how ridiculous, too, given the absolute mastery of their fields the few women we see on screen have. I think he even did a good job showing that when a woman who is amazing at her job is left without a more masculine sense of protection, (in that Rita could totally eff most of them up!) she's forced to fill a sort of fetishized role for the average men in the base.

But I do think there are a few elements that the author perhaps didn't consider, that fall more on the casual sexism side. Things like if aliens attacked the planet and we all got mech suits if we signed up to fight them, how many women would actually want to join the fight, how all three of the women become sexualized at some point, how the best and most badass of the women becomes the heartbreak and story arc of the main male character etc.

Most of the casual bits are pretty standard fare in fantasy and video games, which this book is obviously drawing on as inspiration, so it's not surprising to me. I liked a lot of the considerations raised, so that even though a lot of the sexism was "in your face" throughout the book, it felt mostly intentional and the casual bits felt no more egregious to me than in Dresden or Lord of the Rings. I understand why folks might just be done with that, but for me it didn't reach the full level of unconscious bias that really drives me up the wall.