The Sword and Laser discussion

So I attended LonCon 3 this year and it was fantastic, it was my first WorldCon. And now I'm already looking forward to WorldCon 2015 Sasquan in Spokane, Washington. Go sign up to be at least a supporting member if you haven't already, voting on the Hugos is fun.

I feel like at this point last year I already had a few ideas of books I would like to nominate and some I thought would get nominated. But this year I'm clueless - the 2014 books I've read or am looking forward to read have all been in the thick of a series (Cibola Burn, The Magician's Land, Foxglove Summer) and are therefore not really "Hugo worthy". (And well mostly I've been playing catchup and reading Iain M. Banks this year.)

So... what are peoples favorite books of 2014 so far? Especially books that stand a good chance of being nominated.

The related threads are:
• possible 2015 Hugo novel nominations
• Possible 2015 Hugo nominees -- short stories - lot's of good free reading here, even if you don't care about the Hugo. Neil Clarke of Clarkesworld stopped by. :)
• Hugo Nominations Are Now Open - all the things!

If there's any good sense among nominators, Robert Jackson Bennett's City of Stairs should be on the list.

If there's any good sense among nominators

lol, should I be offended? Just nominate some books yourself and contribute some sense. :D

Just added City of Stairs to my to-read list, sounds fun.

She did win an embarrassing amount of Hugos this year. I agree though, this is like the third or forth time (Charles Stross' blog, Scalzi's blog...) I heard of this book and it just came out.

I'm terrible at noticing when a book was published vs when I read it, so I have no idea what I've read that would qualify except for Scalzi's Lock In, which was good (not mind blowingly awesome though) and likely to be nominated unless he turns it down.

I rarely buy books right away since I can't afford the new release price. I wait for the price to drop or a good sale.

My early guesses for Hugo nominations would be:

City of Stairs by Robert Jackson Bennett (based on quality and buzz)

Lock In by John Scalzi (the Hugos are a popularity contest in many ways and few authors are as endeared to the SF community as Scalzi)

Ancillary Sword by Ann Leckie (yes it's unusual for second books of a series to make it onto the ballot, but given the overwhelming support that Ancillary Justice had I think this is very likely)

As to the rest, I can think of quite a few books that were reviewed well this year but I have no idea of their actual popularity. So I wouldn't be shocked if any of these showed up:

The Girl in the Road by Monica Byrne
Defenders by Will McIntosh
The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison (pseudonym for Sarah Monette)
The Mirror Empire by Kameron Hurley
Cibola Burn by James S.A. Corey

I also think we'll probably see a second round of sad puppies and/or other groups doing a similar set ballot now that Larry Correia has demonstrated the viability of that strategy.

Ulmer Ian wrote: " Just nominate some books yourself and contribute some sense. :D"

Wait, I can nominate?

*nominates himself*

Lindsay wrote: "The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison (pseudonym for Sarah Monette)"

This is another one that I'd *love* to see on the ballot.

I also think we'll probably see a second round of sad puppies and/or other groups doing a similar set ballot now that Larry Correia has demonstrated the viability of that strategy.

Agh how depressing, I hope your wrong. That's part of why I started this thread, the Hugo awards need more disorganized nominating. I feel confident that the Sword and Laser forums are unable to come to a consensus on anything. :D (Outside of nominating Sword and Laser - which we should get around to doing!)

Have you read The Girl in the Road, The Goblin Emperor or the The Defenders? Would you recommend them?

I'm reading Cibola Burns now, I can't imagine this book being nominated. Great book, but like I said very much part of a continuity.

Ulmer Ian wrote: "Have you read The Girl in the Road, The Goblin Emperor or the The Defenders? Would you recommend them?"

The Goblin Emperor was brilliant, easily my favorite book this year until City of Stairs came along. In a fantasy field saturated with death and horror and so-called grimdark, this is a wonderful take on true nobility of character as well as what it takes to build and heal societies.

Defenders is probably my favorite SF novel of the year (so far, haven't read Ancillary Sword yet) and I think this author has big things ahead. His Love Minus Eighty book was very good too.

I haven't got to The Girl in the Road yet, but given that Neil Gaiman has said very good things about it, it's pretty high on my to-read list.

Ulmer Ian wrote: "I'm reading Cibola Burns now, I can't imagine this book being nominated. Great book, but like I said very much part of a continuity. "

The Hugos are a popularity contest. Repeat that to yourself five times and then remember that there is a TV series based on the Expanse coming next year.

I don't see why you would discount books mid-series, in just a general observation in the last 10 years it's seemed like at least 1 if not more nominees were not the first book. Example: dance with dragons, which clearly you don't just jump into.

Sword and Laser. :)

Aidan wrote: "Ulmer Ian wrote: " Just nominate some books yourself and contribute some sense. :D"

Wait, I can nominate?

Yes, just join Sasquan!

Lindsay wrote: "The Hugos are a popularity contest. Repeat that to yourself five times and then remember that there is a TV series based on the Expanse coming next year. "

Janet wrote: "I don't see why you would discount books mid-series, in just a general observation in the last 10 years it's seemed like at least 1 if not more nominees were not the first book. Example: dance wit..."

You all might be right, I guess I was mostly thinking of the winners where there is for sure a bias against subsequent books (though again you can find examples...). I just looked and Abaddon's Gate would've been nominated for this years Hugo with only 30 more votes.

I'll check out Defenders as well, I don't think I've read a proper alien invasion this side of War of the Worlds. :)

I really loved World of Trouble by Ben Winters. It is the final book in the Last Policeman series and it is sad and lovely. (I'm sure it makes it better to have read the other 2 books in the series, but I do not think it is required.)

Lindsay wrote: "My early guesses for Hugo nominations would be:

"

Good list, I don't see Ancillary Sword getting on the list though, unless it does something new. Ancillary Justice I believe got on there because it did all the pronoun thing that SJWs love, and it had an interesting premise. However, with a mediocre delivery on the first book, I don't expect a blow away on the second. Unless, it does a good number of new things again I don't see it getting nominated.

John Scalzi has the best shot right now I still have no idea how Redshirts won.

City of Stairs and Lock In I feel are the only 2 sure-ins any of the others might get in, but could easily get pushed out by a new book.

I don't agree that Ancillary Justice had a mediocre delivery and I think that the gender thing has been blown out of all proportion.

That being said, I guess we'll see in a few months :)

Well Ancillary Justice won since it was clearly the best book on the nominations list last year and IMO it deserved to be the on the list. It dealt with several themes, not just gender but also identity and imperialism. Also it has a space ship on the cover, which is never a bad thing for Hugo. :)

If you are going to pick on a book for being on the 2014 nominee list it isn't Ancillary Justice. Even Stross doesn't defend Neptune's Brood too much (the story sort of swam away from him :p), though I think it's cool that a book that was really about an idea in the old school scifi way got nominated. Parasite was only on the list since Neil Gaiman turned down the nomination. And the other two...

I agree that Ancillary Sword probably won't be on the list since it just won last year. But Lindsay is right, betting against a popular book is always a bad idea.

Well, to be fair, Ancillary Sword is not out yet and it might well be a train wreck. But based on the first one I'm expecting big things.

It's actually going to be a sword and sorcery epic with all women.

Oh, so it'll definitely be a hugo nom then.

Ulmer Ian wrote: "identity and imperialism"

Yeah that is what I meant by interesting concept. You actually seem to support my opinion on it, that it won because it dealt with the most new things. So in order to get another win it will have to introduce new high minded concepts in an interesting way which is always a crapshoot if a new author can pull that off well. Neptune's Brood I havn't read and from all accounts didn't sound as good. Parasite and Warbound were both way more enjoyable reads, but not really concept books that take awards. Wheel of Time well it's WoT what do you expect.

In terms of concepts and being interesting on a high minded level Ancillary Justice clearly deserved a win.

I'd actually be interested to hear people's opinions on some of the other categories, such as short stories / novelettes / novellas. Are there any published this year that have stuck with you? (Maybe I should start a separate thread?)

I liked Marie Brennan's Mad Maudlin -- I thought it had an interesting mix of psychology and folk tale and was creepy to boot.

But I haven't read a ton of short stories recently and would welcome suggestions of some other goods ones published this year!

Yea I think it's worth its own thread, I'm also interested since I usually just give up on nominating the other fictions. I just renamed the topic of this thread.

Somehow no one mentioned The Martian yet even though it was a Sword and Laser pick IIRC. It's still on my to-read list though. >.<

Anyways it is the World Science Fiction Convention, space stuff always has an edge. And it's has had a lot of buzz.

The Martian (is great, but it) was published in 2012.

The Martian was released 2012 although with the bizarre Hugo rules I wouldnt rule out its eligibility for nominating.

Jeff Vandermeer's Southern Reach Trilogy is certainly good enough to win awards and I am sure will win some although not sure if enough of the people who might vote for it will be Hugo voters.

I would like The Ghost in the Electric Blue Suit to get nominations as he is a great writer and this is his last book with his sad recent death.

James Morrow's The Madonna and the Starship is also good enough to deserve awards but might not quite be what enough readers are looking for to get there - comedy rarely does well at the Hugos Scalzi and Willis aside.

City of Stairs sounds very promising and he has won awards in the past. However I didnt like his debut all that much so am in two minds about giving him a second try- it just might not be for me.

Gosh dangit, Goodreads light grey text 'first published in' trolling me again. :D

The Martian was first published in 2012 as an eBook, but didn't get an actual print edition until 2014, so I think that still makes it eligible for a Hugo nomination.

Louie wrote: "The Martian was first published in 2012 as an eBook, but didn't get an actual print edition until 2014, so I think that still makes it eligible for a Hugo nomination."

From the Hugo FAQ:

Are self-published e-books considered as potential nominees or must the publication be through a traditional publisher?

Self-published works, e-books, and other “non-traditionally” published works are eligible. There is no restriction requiring works to be published through “traditional” publishers.

Are works published electronically eligible?

Yes they are. The definitions of the Hugo Award categories refer only to the nature of the work, not the medium in which it is published. A novel is a novel, regardless of whether it is published in hardback, softback, as a serial in a magazine, or on disk. A webcomic is a graphic story just as much as is a comic book or graphic novel. A fanzine is a fanzine, regardless of whether it is posted as paper, emailed as a PDF, or a blog.

So well who knows. People who like the Martian should probably nominate it if they have the space.

These are great suggestions! I'm going to have to pick up a few. It turns out after finishing my Hugo reading for the 2013's I haven't read ANYTHING released this year that wasn't part of a series.

Well re: The Tale of Atlantis, enough voters probably prefer reading physical books that it seems appropriate that it isn't being considered. Maybe at some point it won't matter, but not 2014.

Anyways this month I made good progress with the books suggested here. :) City of Stairs really lives up to all the hype - it was fantastic! I felt the politics was very real, I wasn't surprised when I heard in an interview that he enjoys reading wonky foreign policy blogs.

Just finished Ancillary Sword and liked it quite a bit. It was much more quiet than Ancillary Justice, it almost feels like it's in a different genre. I'm not sure if I'll nominate it or not, IMO a sequel should be extraordinary to win after the first book won.

I've being hearing about Defenders and The Mirror Empire all over, not just this thread, I look forward to reading these. Lock In is just a genre that doesn't interest me as-much (near-future thriller), I'll probably just read it after it gets nominated. ;)

Edit: read Defenders and it is fantastic. Also Magician's Land.

So my nomination list so far:
Defenders
City of Stairs
The Magician's Land
Cibola Burn

I still need to read The Goblin Emperor and maybe The Mirror Empire. The latter sounds awfully grimdarky so I've been putting off reading it.

Ben wrote: "Jeff Vandermeer's Southern Reach Trilogy is certainly good enough to win awards and I am sure will win some although not sure if enough of the people who might vote for it will be Hugo voters."

I finished Annihilation last week, and I have to say it is probably one of the best books I've read this year. I am about halfway thru the second in the trilogy and it is just as good. Fans of weird sci-fi should definitely check it out!

I haven't read many of the others people have noted here yet, though, so I am not sure where it compares with them. Hoping to get through a few before it is time to nominate!

I don't know of any self-published authors who are making a big enough splash to be nominated this year, although Jason Gurley's Eleanor might be a possible contender for a nomination? Fluency, by Jen Foehner Wells has made a pretty big splash, now I think about it. Another possible? Both have been very popular.

I'll update my guess list since my last effort was back in September and the nominations are now open.

Here's what I think will be on the Hugo short list for best novel:

Lock In by John Scalzi
Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy by Jeff VanderMeer (all of it was released in 2014 so it's all eligible)
Ancillary Sword by Ann Leckie
Cibola Burn by James S.A. Corey

It wouldn't shock me to see any of the following:
City of Stairs by Robert Jackson Bennett (still my favorite book of last year, but suffers from the "fantasy problem" - a good portion of the hugo voters and the general public still think of this award as SF only)
The Mirror Empire by Kameron Hurley ("fantasy problem", also fairly inaccessible)
The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison ("fantasy problem")

Other things of note:
- I don't think that The Martian is eligible and even the author's opinion seems to corroborate that.
- There is a Sad Puppies effort this year, this time framed in terms of the Hugos being elitist and commercially successful work being discriminated against. (In related news, Transformers 4 for the Oscars!) Ultimately, the proof of the pudding will be in the list that's actually put up - whether it's a list of commercially popular works that have been unfairly overlooked or something like last year's embarrassment.

I really hope that Area X wins.

Lindsay wrote: "this time framed in terms of the Hugos being elitist and commercially successful work being discriminated against"

If this is the case, what are the books they deem to be "commercially successful" that should be in the running?

I'm genuinely curious.

Shockingly, the novel that the guy that's doing Sad Puppies felt was most unfairly discriminated against was... his own! What a twist!

Its all Baen authors, this year it appears to be some guy named Brad Torgersen's turn.

The Hugo's are already a popularity contest. Maybe they could consider a juried award like the Arthur C. Clark to be elitist. The Hugo's can be easily gamed though. It doesn't take that many votes to get a nomination.

Torgersen had a novella (novelette?) and short story nominated last year. I read one and it was neo-Yellow Peril bullshit about American soldiers killing Chinese astronauts to defend an unmanned space station. I actually ended up ranking it below the Vox Day story, it was that bad.

Brendan wrote: "Shockingly, the novel that the guy that's doing Sad Puppies felt was most unfairly discriminated against was... his own! What a twist!

Its all Baen authors, this year it appears to be some guy nam..."

Having never read any of their books I can't judge them but its not like the books that do get nominated are critical darlings that don't sell copies.

Torgersen isn't wrong about everything. If there's categories for TV/movies, then there probably should be a separate category for video games.

Geoff wrote: "Lindsay wrote: "this time framed in terms of the Hugos being elitist and commercially successful work being discriminated against"

If this is the case, what are the books they deem to be "commerci..."

They haven't put up their preferred ballot this year yet. Torgersen has at least recused himself from being on it which is a nod towards integrity, so who knows, the list they come up with might be a genuinely interesting list of commercially successful but critically overlooked work. Or it could be a bunch of libertarian and right wing Baen authors seeking notoriety and the glamor of being associated with individuals like Vox Day.

Oh, I also forgot that there was a Mira Grant book this year, so I suspect that the Hugo nominees list will probably include Symbiont. Seanan's marketing is superb and her fans legion.

Just finished The Three-Body Problem. It feels like such a golden age classic, complete with scientific infodumps and not-great characterization. Owing I assume to the different novel traditions of China it doesn't have the 'tight third person' perspective we are used to in virtually all books written these days, or at least it does it a bit strangely. However there's a reason we call it the golden age, it was fun and cool to read and think about. The author wrote a post-script (for Americans) that really reminded of a Hugo Gernsback editorial from the 20s: all rah-rah about science and completely sincere. Makes sense to give a Hugo to this man. :)

I think my list now is:
Defenders
City of Stairs
The Magician's Land
The Three-Body Problem

Re: Baen authors, clearly Lois McMaster Bujold shows they have no trouble winning Hugos!

After watching this about the Oscars:
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/17/7559511/...

I realized how good the Hugos have it. I mean the Nebula is pretty much the equivalent of the Oscars I guess, and they have one of the more diverse nomination ballots. Anyways Hugo and Nebula really make a good team IMO. :)

Btw everyone has only another week to sign up for WorldCon to be able to nominate anyone. Can't complain if you don't vote!

http://sasquan.org/2015/01/hugo-nomin...

Geoff wrote: "Lindsay wrote: "this time framed in terms of the Hugos being elitist and commercially successful work being discriminated against"

If this is the case, what are the books they deem to be "commerci..."

Yea, which books of last year's short list were not commercially successful exactly? The Wheel of Time maybe (lol)? Or the Mira Grant one (hah)? Maybe Charless Stross (he sells nothing, right)? Must've been the winner, Ancillary Justice then, I'm sure no one read that ...

I'm sure they're referring to last year's winner John Scalzi then, oh wait, he's kinda popular right? Maybe that Gaiman guy then, or Connie Willis, maybe Michael Chabon, or some other obscure, elitist hugo winners no "real fan" has ever head of.

Sad puppies are making a mess of themselves. They could do with some housebreaking.

The examples of commercially successful writers that haven't got a Hugo nomination that he gave were Tad Williams, Steven Barnes, Chuck Gannon, Kevin J. Anderson and L.E. Modesitt, Jr.

I have no idea of actual sales; I'm not sure where you'd go to find those figures.

Kevin Anderson? Do the Hugos have a fanfiction category?

Being Tad Williams is its own reward.

I guess seriously it's really easy to find great authors that never get recognized. Iain Banks was only Hugo nominated once.

Lindsay wrote: "The examples of commercially successful writers that haven't got a Hugo nomination that he gave were Tad Williams, Steven Barnes, Chuck Gannon, Kevin J. Anderson and L.E. Modesitt, Jr.

I have no i..."

Nielsen bookscan is the best we got...but I don't have an account, I would be very interested to see the sales numbers for all of the shortlist last year.

WoT will be the obvious no brain winner, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the sales numbers of Ancillary Justice not that high...as it was the only book out of the 5 I couldn't find in any of my local bookstores or even the 2 story Barnes and Noble in the big city.

Lindsay wrote: "The examples of commercially successful writers that haven't got a Hugo nomination that he gave were Tad Williams, Steven Barnes, Chuck Gannon, Kevin J. Anderson and L.E. Modesitt, Jr."

Not familiar with Barnes or Gannon. Anderson's not going to win on his licensed work (Star Wars, X-Files--I count the Dune stuff among these) because licensed novels don't get nominated for Hugos, and I'm not sure how many people are even aware he's written original novels. If Williams was going to win a Hugo, it should probably have been for Memory Sorrow and Thorn, and those came out in the late 80s/early 90s when the SFWA WorldCon had little interest in nominating straight fantasy (as opposed to SF with fantasy aesthetics) for Hugos.* Modesitt's probably in the same boat--if he was going to win, it would have been for his fantasy work in the 80s or 90s.

*If you look at the Hugo Winners for Best Novel, obviously works that have a fantasy aesthetic or veneer but SF explanations for their settings, like the Pern books or Lord of Light or The Einstein Intersection regularly get recognized early on. But straight-on fantasy without SF elements are infrequent before the 2000s. A half-dozen or so nominations, but no wins. Not until J.K. Rowling, Neil Gaiman, and China Miéville show up in the early 2000s does fantasy become a regular and worthy contender at the Hugos. The shorter form awards are more charitable to fantasy earlier on, but still overwhelmingly skew SF before the late 90s.