Jane Austen discussion

Here is the thread for discussing the third and final volume of Mansfield Park. This volume covers from Fanny's refusal of Henry Crawford's proposal to the end of the novel.

Let's talk about any questions or comments you have!

This section gets more interesting. Fanny is really put upon. No one truly knows her, not even Edmund and especially not the Crawfords. It's frustrating to her that no one can understand that she doesn't want wealth or social position and that she doesn't belong among the shallow, frivolous London society. They can't see she's the perfect wife for a clergyman! I think Henry is horrible. He keeps persisting when she told him no and to leave her alone. I think he enjoys the hunt and won't be satisfied if she does say yes.

Sir Thomas's scheme in sending her home again was really awful. He only bothers to send her to visit now, when he wants to teach her a lesson. I understand his opinion is that of a typical man of the day, but the lady said no, she meant no so they should leave her alone. If she changes her mind, she can always write to Mary and pass along a few hints for Henry.

The Price's home sounds pretty lively and unkempt. Some of that is her parents and their laziness and inability to care for their family and some is just normal family noise. Poor Fanny just wants to be loved and she isn't going to find it with her parents. It seems like only William cares about her. Maybe if the other siblings were older they might too.

The editor's notes to the Norton Critical edition state that Jane Austen worked in the names of her brothers' ships and was very accurate in her details of naval life in Portsmouth.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "This section gets more interesting. Fanny is really put upon. No one truly knows her, not even Edmund and especially not the Crawfords. It's frustrating to her that no one can understand that she doesn't want wealth or social position and that she doesn't belong among the shallow, frivolous London society. They can't see she's the perfect wife for a clergyman! I think Henry is horrible. He keeps persisting when she told him no and to leave her alone. I think he enjoys the hunt and won't be satisfied if she does say yes. "

Good point, Qnpoohbear. I think those readers who don't like Fanny may need to read this section again. Though she never backs down from her refusal, there are moments when Fanny is very affected by Henry's attention when he seems most sincere. That makes her feel very real to me.

I like the Portsmouth section as well because it serves an important plot function. Sir Thomas was insensitive in his intentions sending her there, but it doesn't accomplish what he wants. Instead, I think Fanny's absence from Mansfield helps throw into relief her value when compared with Maria's elopement with Henry.

The last volume of the book always impresses me with how Fanny, initially such a timid and uncertain person, finds the strength to hold to her own ideas and be her own person in the face of such daunting odds--uncaring relations, the opposition and disappointment of those she loves, the threat of having no home and no future security. This is what I love most about the book!

Abigail wrote: "The last volume of the book always impresses me with how Fanny, initially such a timid and uncertain person, finds the strength to hold to her own ideas and be her own person in the face of such da..."

Yes, I totally agree. She turns, or rather is revealed to be, rather strong in that quiet way of hers.

My own favourite thing about this last part of the novel, apart from Fanny's development, is the final reveal of all the twists and turns in the character of the Crawfords. Whatever was unclear about what they really were is shown here, and it was really quite fun to see it all play out. I love how Austen spends so much of the book showing you the intricacies of her characters, only to then let those characters, their flaws and strengths, act and react to the events in ways that make so much sense and yet still manage to surprise us.

True that, Emily!

One thing that strikes me in this section is how weak and vacillating Edmund acts. I'm with Fanny - just get it over with and ask her!

In fact, nobody shows their best side; they're all a little ridiculous. Henry though begins to shine: he travels all the way to Portsmouth just to see Fanny!

The Portsmouth section is tragic. Fanny hasn't seen her family in what 10 years so of course she's not a part of the family unit. Here we have commentary on the poor and how the Prices choose to be slatternly. If Fanny is so eager to be helpful to someone, I'm surprised she didn't ask her mother what she could do to help. I know she was anxious not to appear too grand in front of her family but she could have at least said something like "Dear Mother, you've worked so hard for so long. I long to help you. Please tell me what I can do." Then Mrs. Price would say "DO? Do nothing girl. Nothing can be done at all." Maybe that got chopped.

I really really dislike Edmund. People say Fanny is a prig but she is so much in awe of her uncle, she can't help go along with his beliefs and morals. Edmund is more of a prig that Fanny. He's sanctimonious and spends a good chunk of the book prosing over and making excuses for Mary Crawford, even at the end when he realizes she isn't the wife for him. She was brought up differently and has different values which do not align with his. Fanny tells him time and again she doesn't love Henry and doesn't want to marry him and why, yet Edmund keeps pushing her. He can't see how perfect Fanny is for him.

Whether Henry truly loves Fanny or not is up for debate, but I don't think so.

I don't feel any sympathy for Maria or Julia at the end. They both made their choices and will be miserable. Maria will probably hope Aunt Norris will die soon.

The events are very similar to Pride and Prejudice. Lydia ran off with Wickham because she didn't have good parental supervision and Maria and Julia made bad matches and caused scandals because one parent figure indulged them too much. Jane Austen is making commentary here on what she sees as good and bad parenting. Mary and Henry were brought up in a terrible household where their uncle openly acknowledged his mistress so they believe that's acceptable. They're not going to change their beliefs now.

The only person who emerges unscathed and actually likeable is Fanny. She's put up with so much and perseveres in her opinions.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "People say Fanny is a prig but she is so much in awe of her uncle, she can't help go along with his beliefs and morals."

I have to disagree. I have stated elsewhere that I don't care for Fanny, but if she only went along with her uncle's beliefs due to her childhood terrors, then she was weak and spineless and had no principles at all.

No, Fanny really believed in the standards she stood for.

Qnpoohbear wrote: "The only person who emerges unscathed and actually likeable is Fanny. She's put up with so much and perseveres in her opinions."

I completely agree.

Elizabeth wrote: "No, Fanny really believed in the standards she stood for."

I completely agree with that, too.

I think you two have hit on the reason why I like Fanny so much. She may be shy but she has inner strength.

Fanny is introverted and I read somewhere that something like 25% of people are introverts. That means the rest of the population are not, and extroverts have a hard time understanding introverts. I am an introvert and I know how that feels. Most people are fairly social by nature and we are not so we are misinterpreted as being either "stuck-up" (NOT true) or inferior to everyone else, aka "backwards" (god, I hate that word) or "no fun". Even by our closest family sometimes. Fanny is proof that it happens to fictional characters too.

I relate to Fanny a lot and I think she shows some of the best of what an introvert can be. I think it's incredible how Austen could write an introvert like Fanny and then the total opposite in Emma Woodhouse.

I'm introverted but I still don't like Fanny.
I think Fanny stood so much in awe of her uncle that whatever he thought must be correct so she absorbed his values and made them her own. She's firm in her beliefs to be sure but those beliefs were shaped by her experiences just as Mary Crawford's values were shaped by her experiences.

But Fanny didn't have many (if any) experiences to guide her. Don't you think it more likely that Fanny thought and pondered over those beliefs before she adopted them as her own?

I think that's a main difference between Fanny and Mary C, that Fanny used some brain cells about deep subjects, whereas Mary just absorbed whatever popular opinion was touted around.

I don't think Fanny stood in such awe of her uncle's opinions. She knew and honoured her duty to him, but the opinion she cared for most was Edmund's, and it was his guidance that shaped her most (he was the only one who spent any quality time with her), I think. At the same time, as Elizabeth said, it wasn't as though she blindly followed anything or anybody but her own moral compass. When it came to the sticking point and she stood alone against them all on the matter of Henry and his proposal, she didn't back down even before Edmund.

I agree with you, Emily, that Fanny wasn't in awe of her uncle's opinions; she was in awe of his person! She was terrified of being singled out by anyone, but, because of the respect that she felt she owed him and because he was a proud, cold man, he probably terrified her the most. I doubt very much that his opinions meant all that much to her.

Let's remember that since she was a little girl, Sir Thomas was a father to her. As he said himself he couldn't demand the duties he could as a daughter, but he did have a father's influence. She respected him and his "imminence". (his rank and bearing) I think she feared him as a little girl but his influence could not be neglected. I think that when he returned to Mansfield he saw a more mature Fanny. She was so glad to see him as the others were not so eager except maybe Edmund. They had at all times wanted to do whatever Sir Thomas would have wanted. Fanny wanted to be obedient to him unlike the others. He saw her as mature because of her lack of silliness the other young people displayed with the play etc. Then when Maria and Julia left the house, He began to truly see Fanny for herself and valued her for it. She and her brother were allowed to have a celebration ball and Fanny then "Came out". Fanny wanted to please him I believe because she loved him more than feared him. When she received the offer from Henry, he thought it was a real opportunity for her and way above what may or may not happen for her in the future. He was flattered, she wasn't. She could not be prevailed upon no matter what because she held to what she knew. He sort of relented the hard line he took with her and allowed her space, hoping she would change her mind and this visit home was just the thing to bring her to her senses and let her see just what her life had been and how far it had come and maybe she would relent and accept Henry. Yes, I think it was a kind of punishment in the beginning and she may have seen it that way, but she was happy to see her "real" family that she had left. But she came home to strangers and low class people, not low class economically only, but low class in how her mother dealt with the household and her drunk father and his rough ways. She found her only solace in elder sister (Susan?) and her brother William. She did try to help her mother but her mother didn't know how to accept it. I can't believe that her mother was sister to Aunt Norris who was super organized. But her other sister was self absorbed indolent Lady Bertram. I think if she would have married well, she would have been a lot like Lady Bertram for she would have been exasperated and given up any house hold responsibilities. The whole Portsmouth experience served to remind Fanny just how lucky a little girl she was by the off hand suggestion made by Aunt Norris all those years ago to take her in. She loved her family but they were strangers to her except William. She heard from Mary from time to time and it all seemed a million miles away. The visit of Henry to Portsmouth was certainly a surprise. I think she was far more open to him there. He had come just for her and she was gratified I think. Henry warned her about staying too long there, he knew she needed to be back in Mansfield. And he was right. She had complete faith and trust in her Uncle to send for her when the time was right. During her time away, bad things were happening. William was very ill, Maria eloped with Henry and Julia with Yeats. Her aunt wrote a very heart wrenching letter and it set Fanny into deep worry. Edmund had broken off with Mary and here she sat in a place being of little use to anyone there.

I think that Sir Thomas regretted his decision to send

her away. She was more than just a poor relation. She had made herself indispensable to those she truly loved. They had depended on her. I don't know how I feel about that servant type of role she had at Mansfield even though at that time, this was how it was. I'd like to think they missed her for herself. Maybe they did come to realize Fanny's true worth.

And as in all of Jane Austen's work, the tried and true heroine gets her just rewards in the end. Things were tied up in a neat ribbon and she and Edmund wed. It seems that those parts took place pretty much off screen.

I didn't like the way Mary kept pushing Henry at Fanny after she turned him down. It made her very uncomfortable. Her letters were unsettling. Especially after Henry eloped with her cousin. Say Nothing, do nothing? (if I remember correctly) it was all a great mystery, Believe in Henry's love... Really? Then the gossip column her father read about the matrimonial fracas of Mrs. Rrrrrrrr and Mr. C. She was about to get into it with her drunk father.

In telling her uncle why she couldn't marry Henry, she did try to tell him the truth about the liberties he had taken in the house, how it would all come to nothing with him and how he was not serious. He wouldn't listen, to his great peril. I think that during this time she became more sure of herself. She knew where she belonged and her place in the world. Mansfield Park and whatever that entailed.

I am truly sorry that the Grants had to leave the area but what a stroke of luck because it opened up an opportunity for Edmund to succeed to Mansfield Parish and they could live within the patronage of Mansfield Park. (as the last line of the 80s movie ends)