SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Discuss Swords and Deviltry to your heart's contentment!

I read my first Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser many years ago but I actually started to re-read these stories in this series of books about six months ago. This book had some stories I remembered better than others but it was really fun diving back into the world of Lankhmar.

I enjoyed this whole book, but my favorite story was the final one, "Ill met in Lankhmar". A classic "sword & sorcery" tale.

Michael wrote: "I enjoyed this whole book, but my favorite story was the final one..."

For what are probably merely biographical reasons, of the stories included here I tend to prefer "The Unholy Grail," which I first read in a used copy of the October 1962 issue of FANTASTIC in which it originally appeared: that would have been in the middle or later 1960s. The cover art for the issue appears in the Wikipedia Fritz Leiber bibliography.

It was not quite the first Fritz Leiber story I had read, but it made a big impression. I managed to find some (maybe all) of the other appearances of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser in other 1959-1960s issues of FANTASTIC, including "Scylla's Daughter," the first part of THE SWORDS OF LANKHMAR, which I think was the first Ace collection (1968). For some time it was the last in the series by internal chronology.

But for whatever reason, "Unholy Grail" stands out for me.

For those of us who are interested in the BR of this starting tomorrow (the 21st), I’m going to be a day or so late, sorry about that!

No worries 👍 Nice to hear you're taking part! Just started this myself to get a taste what we're in for (and for once on time: 21st here already ^^'), but have another read or two to finish too before really diving in.

I bought a copy of this a few years ago. I should really get around to reading it.

I've read it multiple times in the past. I liked it more the first time as it seems dated to me now. Still the two are one of my favorite duos in Fantasy

I'll be joining the read too, probably starting tomorrow. Looking forward to reading this classic.

Downloaded it this morning. It is available on Kindle Unlimited to subscribers.

I remember burning through some Fritz Leiber books in the late '60s and early '70s. I'd thought that included some Fafhrd and Grey Mouser collections. This book would have been the place I'd likely have started but so far (early on in "The Snow Women") none of this is sounding familiar at all. I vividly remember some of his other books from back then (The Wanderer, for example) so that's kind of weird. Perhaps it's not a reread for me after all.

The chivalry and honor components at the start here have me imagining a somewhat disreputable spin on Knights of the Round Table.

Just started and I’m enjoying its oddball and original style very much so far.

I'm definitely getting a high fantasy vibe.... Not very far in though.

Hoping to join in shortly!

It occurred to me that I’ve known of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser for years and years, but I couldn’t begin to tell you why. Amazing how characters that we haven’t directly encountered somehow invade the cultural conversation and enter our consciousness.

I’m in the middle of the first tale, “The Snow Women,” and I’m enjoying the writing itself very much. The jury’s out on the sexual politics side of things, which is not entirely surprising, but the prose itself is enjoyably poetic, idiosyncratic, and fully realized.

Anthony wrote: "...Amazing how characters that we haven’t directly encountered somehow invade the cultural conversation and enter our consciousness..."

Indeed. I've had this happen with lot of characters, lurking around scenes of various fandoms (Gaiman got a mention for their audiobook intro: their Sandman characters are / were for long a prime example of this for me).

Yeah. I'm sensing there'll be lot of opinions expressed on the 'gender issues' herein. And right now I find myself having trouble keeping my eyes from rolling for the nature of some of the antics in Ill Met in Lankhmar, but that might be a rather more personal irk.

I think the prose to be the most enjoyable aspect of this as well. Quite unique. Poetic, as you say, which is especially delightful for some of the comedic situations too.

Read Ill Met in Lankhmar and a few others years ago. Downloaded the 1st omnibus from Kindle Unlimited and will read on it over the next few weeks while traveling. Comments to come mid November.

Anthony wrote: "It occurred to me that I’ve known of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser for years and years, but I couldn’t begin to tell you why. Amazing how characters that we haven’t directly encountered somehow invade the cultural conversation and enter our consciousness."

Haha yes, I think that's exactly what Neil Gaiman was saying in his introduction!

Anthony wrote: "I’m in the middle of the first tale, “The Snow Women,” and I’m enjoying the writing itself very much. The jury’s out on the sexual politics side of things, which is not entirely surprising, but the prose itself is enjoyably poetic, idiosyncratic, and fully realized. "

Yeeeaaaah, there are a few eyebrows-hitting-my hairline moments in the beginning but I'll give it some leeway considering the time he wrote them, at least for now ^_^

I mean at least the ladies seem to have a bit more agency than many other ladies who have been depicted in fantasy novels of the era? They’re feisty and self-possessed? Although they also seem entirely too easily interested in having sex with our hero...?

I'm willing to credit both the self-assurance and the want to sex up our hero to boosting said protagonist and satisfying an intended target audience's imagination. What's more exciting, than to have a thinking 'girl' lusting after them by her own free will?

I am also not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with this depiction. To each of their own.

I must say, my personal irks lay with the drinking policies depicted *hah* The unironic glorification of a "charismatic/genius drunk" just gets my eyes rolling so fast. But again, righteous character trait, and hilarious to some, I'm sure.

This did leave me very curious for how the characters and their comradery might develop in the following books.

Haha yeah, that’s what women are like written by a straight man XD

But seriously, he does try to give them a voice and making them choosing their own path. That path just happens to be into a guy’s bed and their voice is somehow only used to discuss men cos yeeeeaaaaah, that’s all we women talk about :P

The two long stories in "Swords and Deviltry" were both published in the late 1960s, and might be thought to reflect the author's ideas at that point in his life.

But figuring out Leiber's position, if any, on a lot of points in the stories is a bit complicated. And to begin with they don't amount to a manifesto on anything: so one has to figure out what points are essential to the story being told, and are part of its secondary world, and which are unspoken assumptions the author probably didn't notice he was using -- which is where some of the trouble comes in.

Also, publication dates can be misleading.

Leiber came up with the characters and some of the settings in conjunction with his friend Harry Otto Fischer, some time in the later 1930s. (Fischer seems to have been the first to name them, and the city of Lankhmar.) Published stories about Fafhrd and the Mouser by Leiber alone began appearing in the magazine "Unknown" (also titled "Unknown Worlds" during its too-brief life) in 1939 and the early 1940s. They can be tracked in detail in the Fritz Leiber Bibliography on Wikipedia.

The older story "Adept's Gambit" first appeared in a 1947 collection of his fiction, and the early stories were collected in "Two Sought Adventure" in 1957. (This was expanded to form "Swords Against Death" in 1970). The characterization of the protagonists was by that time pretty much fixed in stone, at least for those familiar with the stories.

Stories then appeared sporadically in the 1950s and 1960s, and then again in the later 1970s.

Thus far everything is straightforward. Some of the stories were written much later than others.

But Leiber reported that he had early-on written parts of what was intended as a long novel, "The Grain Ships." It was never completed, but he drew on episodes in it for some of the stories published in the 1950s and 1960s. He may have used other early versions as a resource, but I haven't seen that possibility addressed. [Addendum: actually, it has been, in at least one case: see message #26 below.]

Some of the rest of the novel was apparently reworked in the previously unpublished portions of "The Swords of Lankhmar" in 1968, although I suspect a good deal of it was freshly created for the purpose.

A lot of assumptions about characters -- and sex roles -- in them could have made the transition from c.1939 to the fifties and sixties without much, if any, change, except maybe a somewhat franker attitude toward sex in the later years.

("Unknown" was rather puritanical, like its older sister, "Astounding Science Fiction," which shared an editor. So, despite cheesecake covers, was the other possible market, 'Weird Tales," which had already rejected them. The main outlet in the 1960s, "Fantastic," was slightly more relaxed.)

Thank you for sharing that background on these, it is indeed interesting to learn more about him. This is the first of any of his work that I’m reading.

Just finished “The Snow Women” and have to say that I have rarely read a scene of swordplay that was more vividly and brutally depicted as the one at the crossroads. Every moment of it was crystal clear, and written with the same verve and originality as everything else in the story. Really impressive stuff.

I also greatly enjoy his highly stylized dialogue, which still manages to feel human, even though none of the characters speaks in a recognizably colloquial manner.

I too loved how straight forward the action was. The narration felt it cut off everything unnecessary; jumping from one important aspect to the next, as if it were a movie changing angle according to the needs of the movement - short cut after short cut, put together to a well cascading scene.

The casual speech conveyed through this stylized manner was root of some of the best comedy too, I found.

I agree with your evocation of a cinematic feel. It brought to mind the incredibly kinetic and yet totally lucid filmmaking employed by George Miller in Mad Max: Fury Road. There was never a moment in that film in which I was confused about what was happening, or who was involved, and it was thrilling and vivid and suspenseful and brutal throughout. There was absolutely a similar mastery at work here.

Just finished “The Unholy Grail” and was very much taken by the journey of Mouse as he became The Gray Mouser. Here was also a wonderfully believable, satisfyingly horrible villain, who was never reduced to cartoonish ghoulishness.

Anthony wrote: "Thank you for sharing that background on these, it is indeed interesting to learn more about him. This is the first of any of his work that I’m reading."

You're welcome.

I made a mistake about use of other older material not being addressed. I should have remembered "The Lords of Quarmall," published in "Fantastic" in 1964, revised and expanded (I think completed) from an early story by Harry Otto Fischer, who was credited in the magazine appearance. There were some further minor changes when it was published by Ace in "Swords Against Wizardry" in 1968, mostly to make the internal chronology more consistent with stories published subsequently. Leiber later felt obliged to at least mention some of the adventures the two mention in the course of the story, without telling them in full.

I think that Fischer was credited on the Ace copyright page, although not the cover and title page, but I no longer have a copy of that paperback to be sure. He does not appear to be mentioned in the Open Road Kindle edition (including using a digital search in case I had missed it).

The Wikipedia biography of Leiber is probably worth consulting (as well as the bibliography). He was the son of a distinguished actor (Fritz Leiber Sr., to keep filmographies straight), had appeared in small roles himself, and had a commanding presence as a public speaker, as demonstrated at several conventions and other public appearances at which I heard him speak.

Oh, yes! Fury Road is a perfect sample for swift and clear action cutting.

I really loved this. So sure-handed in every meaningful respect, with a welcome blend of delightful silliness and some real pathos. And the writing! So vivid and entertaining and original. This is the year when I’ve finally read novels by the SFWA Grand Masters Frederik Pohl, Poul Anderson, and Fritz Leiber, and all of them have exceeded my expectations, especially this one and The Broken Sword. I see now why they are all as revered as they are.

How to pronounce "Fafhrd"
?

I do it thusly: Faffhurd

aha- website with various pronunciations

https://www.pronouncekiwi.com/Fafhrd

Exactly my pronunciation CB.