21st Century Literature discussion

This thread is for general discussion of the book and posting reviews, interviews, etc. concerning the book. To start, here is a review of the book from the NY Times -- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/boo....

When the book came out, I was not sure I had any desire to read a book set in North Korea, as I wondered how someone who was not Korean, given the closed nature of the society, could write a book that had any factual foundation. Did anyone else wonder about that?

I just worried that it would be impossibly unpleasant and dark. And it is pretty dark actually, but so far not unbearably so (I'm almost a third if the way through).

NPR's interview with the author can be found here: http://www.npr.org/2013/04/21/1782262...

When the book came out, I had no desire to read it, because it sounded so unpleasant. I would not have read it but for this group, and I approached it with great trepidation. But I stumbled on a used copy of the audio book at a local book store, and purchased it. The actor reading it is very good, and I am two-thirds of the way through now. As I listen, I frequently wonder how the author knows all this, and if this is "for real." The New York Times review says something about it being hard to tell when the author is exaggerating. I'm relieved to know that at least some of it is exaggerated.

I have read a couple of non fiction books about North Korean and when I saw reviews of this book I was fairly sure I was wanting to give it a try. Its been sitting on my e-reader for a while waiting for me to give it a try and I will try to get to it over the next few days.

In the spirit of reading whatever's been chosen I am about halfway through this book and I am seriously impressed. This may be the one of the best books I've read this year.

I was going to download this for Kindle, when I discovered that we had a copy at home...... in Spanish translation. Though never a fan of reading a translation when I can read the original, it will save a few euros in my dwindling book budget, and the translation seems quite good so far.

Lol. I wasn't going to read this one but now everyone is raving about it! Dang me.

Casceil, I had the same reaction. It is a novel, so some of it must be imagined, but how much? On this point, I found the interview of the author on the Diane Rehm show of interest - http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/201... - and this column in The Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012.... Since the book as a whole is discussed in these (although fairly generally), read them with caution if you are not too far into the book and do not like any advance hints!

I have an interesting reaction to some historical fiction. If it takes too many liberties, I find myself extremely irritated. Why not write straight fiction, without confusing truth? I felt that way about the movie, "Amadeus," which dragged a good man's (Salieri's) name through the mud. The problem is that many feel they have become acquainted with fact. I hope, therefore, that this book does not exaggerate for effect. There are lessons enough to learn from the truth. But I am being cantankerous!

Karen - you've raised what is possibly THE question about historical fiction. The thing is (and I am a historian) that even history itself is open to interpretation.
Perhaps you had heard of Salieri before Schaeffer's play came out, but I don't think I had (I am also a musician... Don't worry, the specialities stop there!!).
I think that, as long as the reader remembers that she is reading fiction, the worst that can happen is that she decides to follow things up for herself and come to her own conclusions about whether a character is good, bad, evil, immoral... Or perhaps just normal?
An extreme example: Shakespeare's Richard III is virtually all Tudor propaganda, but few would consider it unworthy of reading or performing for that reason.
I don't think you are being cantankerous, but I would always be wary of the word "truth".

I agree that it's hard to know what in this novel is fact and what is fiction - so little is known about North Korea and the lives of its people - but I think that difficulty also is an important part of the message of the book. I read that the author studied the country for years before writing the book and interviewee defectors, only visiting the country once, and that constantly in the presence of "minders" who had been trained specially to interact with Americans. To me a major theme of the book related to identity - the book portrays identity as being held in tremendously low regard in North Korea, but it is a fundamental human need that will find an outlet. This tension leads to "through the looking glass" results throughout the book.

Amy wrote: "This tension leads to "through the looking glass" results throughout the book." Nice observation of what this book puts me in mind of.

I'm just a tourist in this thread, as I haven't read the book. Mainly for the reason that Linda brings up in the initial comments. I think Pip's comments about historical fiction are very salient. What we're getting is not a history lesson, it's a work of fiction set in a particular time, with all authors taking liberties to some extent.

My problem with Orphan Master is more that it falls in what I think of as "tourist fiction", where an outsider (usually of white, European descent) writes a book about a place he has visited and/or read about, and writes it as if they are an insider. Aside from the problem of factual accuracies (which all historical fiction has), the presumption that one visit and some research is enough to get inside the heads of people of an alien culture seems arrogantly presumptuous. That this book lacks historical distance, and that it's being hailed as a revealing look at North Korea compounds the problem for me. If this was a book written by a North Korean ex-patriot, I'd be all over it.

I'm interested to see how this discussion goes, even if I won't be participating. Thanks for the provocative question, Linda!

P.S. For people interested in some excellent documentaries about North Korea, I highly recommend the films by Polish director Andrzej Fidyk. Both "The Parade" and "Yodok Stories". The later is about a director who escaped from a concentration camp and is making a musical about the camps with some fellow North Korean refugees.

Whitney, Karen, and Pip, thanks for the thoughtful comments about historical fiction. Historical fiction is a favorite of mine but when one or more of the main characters are (or were) players in history, I try to stay aware that I am reading fiction and not to incorporate the author's view of the character as truth. Wolf Hall immediately comes to mine as such a book. Does it matter more if the history being considered is current/recent?

I think I will continue to wonder just how much is exaggeration and how much "truth," but having now read the book, it does not trouble me in the same way as it did before reading it. Amy has identified a point that makes the question of what's true and what isn't less important - that is the importance of individual identity. It seems to me that individual identity is often suppressed in tolitarian governments and knowing how that can be accomplished is a worthwhile thing for historical fiction to explore. Amy's characterization of this book as having a "through the looking glass feel" resonates with me. This was especially true for me in Part two.

To me, the question of identity is a theme throughout this book at both a macro level (the country) and micro level (Jun Do or Commander Ga). North Korea is such a mystery to us that it is hard to separate fact from fiction in depictions of the country - not just in this book, but generally. These fictional characters are also turned inside out, in terms of their identity and true selves - what is "fact" and what is "fiction" for them? They hardly know themselves, and we as readers are also confused about that for most of the book. I believe that is intentional. Whether the book is literally/factually true is not a question I can answer, but because this is a work of fiction, I also don't think its literal/factual truth is the primary point here. It seemed to me to ring true on an emotional/psychological level.

I think you're all correct, that the point of fiction isn't a history lesson. I'm just having trouble getting past my own issues. After all these comments, I think I'll make more effort to get past them. I love fiction that deals with identity and questions of reality. This group remains excellent.

Whitney, I was very resistant to reading this book, but I am two-thirds of the way through the audio-book now, and glad I took a chance on it. It is a very thought-provoking book. I keep wondering how a society could be this messed up and dysfunctional, but the characters ring true. In some ways it reminds me of Never Let Me Go, another book where I had trouble with the premise. If you get past thinking, "this can't be happening," to thinking "but what if it were," then the book becomes a very interesting exploration of how human beings cope with the impossible.

Casceil, that is a great example! I Loved Never Let Me Go, and it is a book where nitpicking about the premise is certainly missing the point. Sounds like Orphan Master falls in the same camp. I shall endeavor to cease my premise nitpicking.

Does that mean you might read this book?

Well, clearly the point is well taken that we are, in fact, reading a work of fiction and literature. But with historical fiction, there is an investing dynamic -- the interplay between the factual (I'll avoid the loaded words "real" and "truth" this time) and the world constructed by the author. Through such interplay, in the hands of a skilled artist, our understanding is deepened not only for matters touched on by all great literature, but, also for events of history. It would seem that the latter would be best-achieved when the writer shows a well developed respect for the historical background. However, it is also true that there are times license can illuminate the history itself. One example is when such an effect as satire (dark or otherwise) is intended. (In this regard, I am only part way into the book, but have already noted the delicious satire of the delegation's visit to Texas.)

I am about a third through the book. It's interesting to me that there are questions about whether it's historically true. To me, it's clear that this is not intended to be historical, but I haven't read interviews with the author to verify that conclusion. From what we know about tyranny, it is real enough or true enough. There is no doubt that it is at least this bad if not worse in today's NK or yesteryear's Soviet Union.

To me, it's about how tyranny can destroy humanity and completely alter humanity's capabilities, destroy the natural good of humanity. He could have made up a society like Orwell did, but then it has the danger of being "science fiction." I think NK is picked so that we do not need to question likelihood.

Casceil wrote: "Does that mean you might read this book?"

For sure. Probably not in time for the discussion, though, since 2 other 21st Century books are ahead of it now :-)

To give some flavor to how little we actually know about North Korea, no one currently knows who is running the country as Kim Jong-un hasn't been seen in public for a month. (CNN piece here.)

Casceil wrote: "Whitney, I was very resistant to reading this book, but I am two-thirds of the way through the audio-book now, and glad I took a chance on it. It is a very thought-provoking book...."

I feeling guilty tonight and came to this column for direction/encouragement/resignation ....

More than you want to know about my dilemma:(view spoiler)[
I finished a couple of books that needed finishing the past couple of days. I had voted for The Orphan Master's Son because I have a copy here somewhere that I had been intending to read and figured this would be a supportive incentive. It has disappeared into some box of books, and I now have had a library copy for several days. So today I finally got to it -- and I am not at all certain that I want to keep reading.

Is this sort of a Günter Grass The Tin Drum type of story -- a penetrating satiric probe of human insanity on the national and international level? Should I go and read some reviews to know a bit more about what I may be getting into? Why and against what credentials is Adam Johnson being so highly touted? The hype sounds a bit like Wallace/Roth/Llosa rolled into one. I gave up on Llosa a few months ago, even though I read perhaps 2/3 of the book.

Laying aside TOMS after ~40pp, I picked up my f2f group's read in two weeks -- a read I had been resisting, thinking much as I enjoyed Bel Canto, I'd just as soon pass on another Ann Patchett book right now. Less than 100pp in, State of Wonder has me hooked, good read style -- want to find out what happens. (hide spoiler)]

Perhaps I should see if the audio copy is available in my library system. Thx to all who are reading and posting. I will continue to follow.

Lily, I don't know what to advise you about Orphan Master's Son. I still haven't quite finished it. I'm still glad I read/listened to it. It is a very tightly written story that offers much food for thought. But parts of it are very unpleasant. I know some people studiously avoid reading books in which anyone is tortured. Usually I'm in that group. I'm making an exception for this book. But there are plenty of other books out there you might enjoy more.

Marc wrote: "To give some flavor to how little we actually know about North Korea, no one currently knows who is running the country as Kim Jong-un hasn't been seen in public for a month. (CNN piece here.)"

Thanks for posting the CNN piece Marc. Hard to imagine how the leader of a country can just drop out of sight.

A bit of news this week from North Korea, Huffington Post style:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10...

A fascinating set of 21 pictures from July 27, 2013 (60th anniversary of the Korean War armistice) below the article.

Lily wrote: "A bit of news this week from North Korea, Huffington Post style:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10...

A fascinating set of 21 pictures from July 27, ..."

Thank you for posting this. I found myself reading it with the same tone and cadence that I hear when reading the novel.

In related North Korea news, Diane Rehm will be interviewing (8 am EST) Suki Kim about her new memoir, Without You, There Is No Us: My Time with the Sons of North Korea's Elite.

From the site:

A Korean-American journalist gets a job teaching English to the sons of North Korea's elite. Her memoir offers an unprecedented peek inside the world's most mysterious country.

You will be able to stream it online later here:
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/201...

WARNING: SOME SPOILERS IN THE LINK
My paperback library copy of this book had a really interesting interview in the back, which is available online: Reader’s Guide: A Conversation between Adam Johnson and David Ebershoff

Does a nice job of tackling some of the questions raised above about what qualifies the author to write such a book, how much of it is "real", etc.

Lily posted this link about the reappearance of the current NK leader. I am adding it here, as this is the thread where Marc first raised his disappearance.

http://time.com/3503483/kcna-north-ko...

Marc,
Thank you for providing the reader's guide. That made me feel much better about my understanding of the book. To me, it is the best of cautionary fiction that is actually more real than the real North Korea, but the focus is on the singular humanity.

I'm very late to this thread so apologies if any of this has been brought up elsewhere, but I heard a story on This American Life recently that I thought people who liked the Orphan Master's Son might enjoy. It's a piece about a South Korean film star and her ex-husband film director who get kidnapped by Kim Jong-Il in the 1970s. I was fascinated to hear this actually happened (though I shouldn't have been surprised). For anyone who's interested, it's the First Act story called "Dream Weavil" in Episode #556 "Same Bed, Different Dreams": http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio....

The person they interviewed for the story, Paul Fischer, also wrote a biography of the actress and film director called A Kim Jong-Il Production: The Extraordinary True Story of a Kidnapped Filmmaker, His Star Actress, and a Young Dictator's Rise to Power.

I just listened to that yesterday! Freakin' fascinating story, and totally surreal.