Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion

Hi everyone,

This is the thread for our September BOM The Prince and the Program!

Feel free to start talking about it whenever your're ready, just be aware that there will likely be spoilers here!

Yay, new thread! (Thanks Jordan!!)

I have started reading it, I'm 80 pages in right now. It's very different from my usual fare. Not a bad thing (I've been trying to widen my reading experiences), but it's been an adjustment for me, particularly style-wise. And... with the direction certain things seem to be going, I suspect I'm going to have some issues with how some things are handled. But, we'll see...

Get ready: I thought it was Alice in Wonderland for first part...then completely different genre for second. So you get two for one...

Ha! Alice in Wonderland is a very good description for where I am right now. Urban fantasy is my jam, but because we're dealing with tech, this feels very... corporate. And I don't read a lot of that environment with this context.

When (the tv show) Supernatural was in their Leviathan phase, it was very much like this. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Also the supporting characters are very thin at this point, so it's making getting into the setting harder for me.

Hmm...just remembered the final piece, which I think would be filed under a third genre altogether :) I am not sure what percentage worked together....but liked many of the unique pieces.

Ah ha... we have just transitioned into 'corporate espionage' mode. That's... interesting.

And yes, I can see how it's definitely possible to enjoy certain pieces, but maybe not the whole quite as much? I do wish I found it easier to tell Gabe, Justin and Curtis apart.

So, I am at Chapter 5 and I like it so far, though I agree with Brenda that you need to get used to the style. When it is about either the supernatural or programming, I barely understand what is going on. I wonder if that is intended, to show that both are opaque system that are hard to understand for outsiders?

Alan just showed up and I liked his interactions with Mori, so that is a good sign.

Philipp wrote: "When it is about either the supernatural or programming, I barely understand what is going on. I wonder if that is intended, to show that both are opaque system that are hard to understand for outsiders?."

Yes! I got that feeling too, especially after I got more into the discussions between Mori and Alan. It seemed deliberate.

I am at chapter 13, but I got a little stalled because I started seeing some red flags for tropes I'm not particularly enamored with (understatement). But I'm still engaged and I'm still enjoying the journey, so I'm still going... but I'm taking breaks with other reading now.

Also, can anyone explain the clock time references to me? I feel like an idiot for not being able to figure that out. :-/

Chapter 17. I have no idea what's going on. But I'm still entertained (?) by the interactions. Maybe I'm addicted.

Okay, I am going to test out the spoiler tags.

(view spoiler)[So, it was obvious from the title of the book that Alan was likely 'non-corporeal', and given their conversations and literally the mission statement of the company, it SHOULD have occurred to Mori that this was at least in the realm of possibility, even if he dismissed it as unlikely. So the running away in a huff is annoying as fuck.

It also doesn't help that while I like Mori well enough, and can empathize with him. I can't sympathize with him. And I identify far more with Alan and Gen-Mai. But since this is Mori's story and Mori's POV, I'm sitting here... annoyed. (hide spoiler)]

eta: So, I've now finished chapter 20 and I've gone from being annoyed with Mori, to detesting Mori. And the only reason I'm going to finish the book is that I am curious about how Alan's character is going to be resolved. But Mori can die in a fire (or in the very complicated way he explained earlier in the book).

Okay, so, FYI the spoiler hide-aways work for viewers on this page, but the notification I received showed the whole thing...if the spoiler had been at the end of your comment I wouldn't have seen it...it didn't matter to me because I had read the book. :) I didn't end up disliking M. as much as you have. I just felt he didn't live up to his potential as an interesting take/insight on the Arthurian Mordred. I think I was intrigued by a revisit of Mordred like the revisit of the wicked witch of the West in wicked.

WMD wrote: "Okay, so, FYI the spoiler hide-aways work for viewers on this page, but the notification I received showed the whole thing...if the spoiler had been at the end of your comment I wouldn't have seen ..."

Oops! Thanks for the heads up... though I guess spoilers are supposed to be okay in this thread anyway, so I probably didn't need to do that.

And yes!! I *loved* Wicked's take on Elphaba. This is definitely not that.

Brenda wrote: "Also, can anyone explain the clock time references to me? I feel like an idiot for not being able to figure that out. :-/"

Do you mean the strange times, like 26:25? If so, I don't get them either. I just assumed that it is either because Mori is from a different plane or a weird math joke.

To red flags, in the chapter I just read Mori mistakes Gen-Mai in a chat for a man, because she has a "masculine" soul, and she supposedly compensates that with larger breast implants. I am not a fan.

The same chapter foreshadows Mori negative reaction to Alan being an AI, he is convinced that a human cannot fall in love with an AI. But Alan also mentions another reason why he would react so badly, in regard to customer service, he says people react badly when they think they are talking to a human, but then find out that it is an AI. But I can just assume that he later comes around?

Philipp wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I just assumed that it is either because Mori is from a different plane or a weird math joke."

I thought that too, initially and I even googled some different time scales to see if I could match it up with something (but the references get even more random as you go).

But now I think the author put that in there just to annoy people like me, and I'll explain what I mean by that later.

I have 80 pages to go.

I thought this was science fiction, based on the cover, the opening pages, and the vague impression that Alan Turing would be featured in some way. But suddenly I find myself reading about the fae. It feels like a cruel bait and switch. I may have to put it aside until I'm in the mood for fantasy about the fae. Which, admittedly, could be never. :(

Many spoilers after paragraph 2 below:

I guess I can't really say I FINISHED this book, since I skimmed most of the last 2/3 of it, but I will say I'm DONE with this book.

I could generally see what the author was trying to do, and liked it at first. I didn't bother to try to understand the math and coding at the start, and I was really glad I hadn't taken the time to puzzle it out when it got weirder and weirder.

I loved the idea of Alan Turing in the computer--very cool. And if I understood the ending correctly, Alan and Mori were in Mori's body for a while, and then Alan got a cyborg body? And a bunch of the characters were cyborgs from the future? Or did I skim too much?

It was simply too weird in the middle, then it just got gross with Natalie eating pieces of Tom or whatever. And when Mori smashed Imp to pieces is when I was done with him. You folks would make me happy if you can tell me there was some justification for that, which I skipped over.

With all the books on my TBR, I couldn't justify spending more time on this one. However, it was interesting enough that I might read a sequel IF people say it's more story than an acid trip.

WMD wrote: "Hmm...just remembered the final piece, which I think would be filed under a third genre altogether :) I am not sure what percentage worked together....but liked many of the unique pieces."

Ah yes, the third main piece is a traditional quest format. Which... okay.

Marge wrote: "And when Mori smashed Imp to pieces is when I was done with him."

That was a turning point for me as well, it's when I went from being annoyed by Mordred to detesting him.

I've got 36 pages to go, but I'm finishing it more because I have a lot to say about it, and I want to make sure I read all of it before I post it.

Marge wrote: "And a bunch of the characters were cyborgs from the future?"

My understanding was that the Cyborg Inquisitors were from the Sunless Planes, which I thought was presented like a parallel plane of existence... sort of.

Marge wrote: "And when Mori smashed Imp to pieces is when I was done with him. You folks would make me happy if you can tell me there was some justification for that, which I skipped over."

I think the only justification for that exists in the author's mind, so if anyone has an idea, I'd be interested to hear it too.

Brenda wrote: " the only justification for that exists in the author's mind, so if anyone has an idea, I'd be interested to hear it too."

Well, the explanation was that Imp was not really a separate entity; Mori transferred the parts of his soul that he couldn't use into a magical construct that was Imp.

As Riordan would say, uh huh.

SamSpayedPI wrote: "Brenda wrote: " the only justification for that exists in the author's mind, so if anyone has an idea, I'd be interested to hear it too."

Well, the explanation was that Imp was not really a separa..."

Yes, I understood that... but, yeah... no. I'll explain more why that doesn't work for me as an explanation soon. I've got like 8 pages to go, but I'm having to take a LOT of breaks.

Welp, I finally finished it, so here we go… and I don’t expect anyone to see the same things I see…that’s pretty par for the course with me. This book ended up making me wonder far more about the author than about the story being told. And I can easily imagine a scenario where the author worked in the tech industry and developed a crush on an autistic co-worker, who did not return their feelings. So they put all their feeling about that into this story. They adored their autistic co-worker (and it’s clear from the author’s twitter that he loves Alan Turing, who was both queer and autistic), but they also blamed the co-worker being autistic for why they didn’t reciprocate.

The author started losing me around the midway point, but the casual violence against the familiar is what turned me from being annoyed to unequivocally disliking Mordred. Regardless that the familiar was an aspect of Mordred’s self (and oh, I’m not even going to touch that part of it with a 10 foot pole), the familiar was presented as having a personality and a POV, but to Mordred it was a thing. Solely in existence through his whim, undeserving of consideration as a separate being even though it did exist outside of him (and I don’t think it’s a coincidence, though it probably wasn’t intentional, that many people see autistic people that way, particularly those who are non-verbal, that we are a human shaped shell and don’t warrant being considered as human). That’s when ‘Mori’ turned into a straight up villain for me.

And you don’t have to guess how he (Mordred? The Author?) feels about autistic people, it’s in every speck of contemptuous, antagonistic interaction Mordred has with Gen-Mai. And the final reveal about her only makes it worse. I get that the author is trying to say something deep about the soul and the nature of what makes something ‘human’ within the framework of programming, but it’s just… eye-rollingly convoluted (which, given some of the basic differences between autistics and neuro-typicals… is, frankly, appropriate).

As for the “romance” (and how this book was given that label, I will never understand), basically all I got was that Mordred was intrigued by Alan’s style of interaction, but he didn’t love him. In a way, he was like Alan; he was attracted to the complexity, not the person. But Alan was honest about it, and Mordred was not, and he tried to dress it up into something that sounded “normal” and “romantic” but was still just about something he wanted to accomplish. Alan was basically a goal, or a prize he was trying to win with finesse and skill, not a person (which just screams ‘entitled white guy syndrome’ to me. Mordred’s interest wasn’t about Alan, it was about Mordred).

I read some of the reviews and wow, the 5 star exclamation point reactions come across to me like people being seduced into a cult, where the deliberate bizarreness of the story is the draw, because if you say you get it, it makes you feel special. It makes you feel different and somehow elevated over your peers who don’t ‘get it’ or don’t like it, especially when the protag is arrogant, casually violent and borderline sociopathic. And this kind of thing is often especially noticeable to marginalized readers or by people who identify strongly with the (autistic-coded or otherwise neuro-divergent) characters he’s constantly trashing, because we instinctively recognize the underlying attitude that basically permeates the whole book.

Basically the protag comes across to me as a ‘queer version’ of an incel (right down to the fantasy-fulfillment of The Giant Tech Company not recognizing how special he is, and being sorry for it later). And his ‘epiphany’ at the end was just him realizing he wasn’t going to get what he wanted, and that there wasn’t any force he could use to have Alan the way he wanted him (but at least the author was self-aware enough to know that *actual* force probably wouldn’t have sold very well, and no I don’t want to ever think of them meeting again sometime else) so instead he transitioned to a benevolent martyr at the end, because “hero”.

But, I did find the book interesting, because I feel like this is actually a good illustration for why the tech industry has evolved the way it has (which may or may not have been intentional?). And at the heart of it is a fundamental lack of understanding between the autistics (who arguably created the internet, embodied by Alan) and the neuro-typicals (who saw an opportunity to monetize and exploit it, embodied by Mordred). Because in general, neuro-typicals don’t believe they have anything to learn from autistics, we’re just curiosities and interesting oddities that have some valuable and exploitable skills. And neuro-typicals control the narrative by literally weaponized social interaction to the point where autistics are nearly always at a disadvantage. And *everyone* will eventually pay the price for that (in the soulless cyborg zombie apocalypse).

Interestingly though, the author did truly and sincerely love Alan Turing, so that allowed me to love Character!Alan too (and I also loved Gen-Mai), and I want them both to go out and have amazing adventures either separate or together, leaving Mordred behind to stew in his own self-pity.

I just finished. This was not quite my cup of tea. I found parts of it interesting, but I was lost quite a few times. I was having trouble with the times and the following the tech aspect. But I read a comment above, and just started going with it, and it was much better after that.

Brenda wrote: "Welp, I finally finished it, so here we go… and I don’t expect anyone to see the same things I see…that’s pretty par for the course with me. This book ended up making me wonder far more about the a..."

Thank you for this especially interesting take on the story, Brenda! It makes me reconsider some of what's going on in the book and also might explain some behaviour of characters that wasn't quite obvious to me.

I read the books once a few months ago and found it interesting and compelling in a few that wasn't exactly comfortable. The inconsistent timeline/plot was a challenge that kept me engaged for a long time, lost me in parts and gave me some Aha!-moments. It lost me with all the violence in the zombie apocalypse which I could have done without.
As many of you said before, Mordred wasn't exactly likeable (also his hyperfixation on Alan a bit weird/scary), still the story was an wild ride and I'm glad I read it.

So I reached the scene Brenda already mentioned, where Mori crushes Imp and I decided to stop reading. The casual cruelty of that scene was the last straw, but even before that Mori became less and less likable, the humor did not work for me and I just do not agree with the authors viewpoint on love and AI.

Oh boy. Just caught some snatches of comments... I’ve not started this yet, so I’m staying away from this thread for the most part until I do. But I’m super glad to see you all chatting about it, even if the book is not exactly working for you.

Just finished chapter 20, myself. WTF?! Not cool. While I needed a lot more characterization for Imp, and I did catch the line where he reabsorbs some parts of Imp, that wasn’t right. And Gen-Mai didn’t do enough to stop him, IMO. Also Mori’s thoughts about gender were not great either.

I’ve been completely lost in regards to the tech-speak, the math, and parts of the fantasy world-building. Not entirely sure what’s going on, really. I feel like this needs a good editing for plot understanding.

But I do sorta like Alan. I don’t know anything about the real Alan T, so I might grab a copy of the graphic novel biography about him at the library. I’ll link it here once I remember the title.

The time stamps, I believe, are 24 hour time. So instead of 1:00pm, it becomes 13:00.

So, I’m still wondering about Alan, so I plan to keep reading for his sake. I did enjoy reading their conversations, for the most part.

I’ll read the rest of the comments here once I’m finished.

Yeah...the self destruction, self hatred (imp murder) of inner warmth/connectivity (a.k.a imp murder) destroyed in turn any empathy I had for Mordred. It seemed deliberate destruction of his likability. And the fact that love would mean self sacrifice and utter devastation and destruction of self (zombie feeding) were both wipeout moments for me in the story. Also I don't honestly believe there is any clear map of what/where/who and when that resolves the story points: even an illogical one.

So, I went along with bits I liked and am also glad I didn't twist myself up trying to make it all fall in place. And in the end I am basically sad for the opportunity lost to read about what Mordred would do in modern times....which idea caught my interest at the beginning of this tale. The whole fact that the guy is Mordred is just beside the point? Is he an eternal Ancient Mariner, an albatross across history? In constant punishment like Prometheus?

I’d forgotten who Mordred was, originally. This seems to not matter to this story, you’re right. So what’s the point? I do like the name though.

I’m also not sure what the point of having a familiar was. Most familiars do more, I think, than Imp. I’m glad he finally more fully explains that the familiar was parts of himself later on. That doesn’t excuse his actions though.

I just realized this was a DSP book. This screams self-published to me. Huh.

And now there’s zombies and cyborgs.... and not a hint of romance.

Such a strange book. Looking at reviews, you either hate the book or you love it. I didn’t put it down, but I certainly didn’t love it. I much prefer the book Bone Rider, which was a sci-fi, action/adventure story involving the mob and the military and was pure awesomeness.

I didn’t like that I didn’t understand anything that was going on in this one.

But in a nod to the TMNT reference, those mutants in the sewer, I’m now reading the second TMNT graphic novel in the IDW collection. This is also a better weird sci-fi action/adventure series: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The IDW Collection, Volume 2

ETA: Added proper links to things! :-)

Jordan wrote: "Such a strange book. Looking at reviews, you either hate the book or you love it. I didn’t put it down, but I certainly didn’t love it. I much prefer the book Bone Rider, which was a sci-fi, action..."

Bone Rider is awesome. Has it ever been a BOM? If not, maybe I'll nominate it sometime.

Teal wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Such a strange book. Looking at reviews, you either hate the book or you love it. I didn’t put it down, but I certainly didn’t love it. I much prefer the book Bone Rider, which was a..."

It has not been a BOM! But pretty much since I finished it, I knew I would want to read it again, so feel free to nominate it any time. :-)

Jordan wrote: "It has not been a BOM! But pretty much since I finished it, I knew I would want to read it again, so feel free to nominate it any time. :-)"

Will do. :)

Jordan wrote: "Such a strange book. "

It really was!!! I'm not at all sorry I read it, and I did love Alan, but I can't say that I enjoyed anything about the story itself for a very wide (and often unrelated) variety of reasons (from content to style to storytelling mechanics). But I have really enjoyed reading everyone else's feeling about it!! :-D

I think my Ace heart really wanted a romance between the AI and the dude. I need more of that in my life. :-)

Jordan wrote: "I think my Ace heart really wanted a romance between the AI and the dude. I need more of that in my life. :-)"

Me too!!! If only "Mori" hadn't been such a despicable jackass. >:-[

Jordan wrote: "I think my Ace heart really wanted a romance between the AI and the dude. I need more of that in my life. :-)"

Yeah. I guess my issue with the book was, to go through all of that weirdness and incomprehensibility (if that's a word), and then to have the MCs not end up together, was just so frustrating (even if I didn't like Mori very much), I wanted to throw the book across the room when I was finished. (I didn't, though, since I didn't want to break my iPhone).

Agreed. I’d thought this was supposed to be a romance. Maybe in the later volumes it’ll come to that, but it doesn’t seem likely. And if they ever get written, I doubt I’d read them.

That scene with his familiar still bothers me!