SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Roll call!

Who's planning to join Anthony and I for this classic SF BR starting on September 17?

I am

o/ If I can wait until then.

Yay!

I own this in translation. I'll join, but won't quote.

I’ll be joining this, but I probably won’t start until closer to Sept 17 due to an overloaded BR schedule. :)

I hope to join as I always claim to be a fan of the old classics and yet have never read any Heechee story.

I never read anything by Pohl so I am pretty excited as well.

Chapter 1 is quite surprising with (view spoiler)[the therapy (?) session (hide spoiler)]

Some of my friends mentioned that (view spoiler)[the psychology (hide spoiler)]aspect of the book is the most interesting part, not necessarily the BDO one.

Hi all, sorry I’m gonna be a day late to start this. Life has been nutty and I’ve fallen behind in my reading schedule. See you here soon!

Oops. Pretty much devoured this book. As much as I loved the (view spoiler)['reverse engineering' (hide spoiler)] premise itself, Silvana's above mentioned reason is indeed the heart of it all, and was such a pleasantly wholesome surprise which kept the story captivating all the way through (view spoiler)[ (though, the whole "how does this ship work again? Is there coming back?" aspect was rather exciting as well) (hide spoiler)].

Loved this one, and am definitely excited for more Pohl.

6 chapters in and I totally enjoy the classic SF tale.

Do all editions have those page sized breaks for protocols and such things? Reminds me a lot of my children's books. There was a publisher that had those pages of ads in the middle of the stories. Like the breaks on TV.

Gabi wrote: "...There was a publisher that had those pages of ads in the middle of the stories. Like the breaks on TV."

Nice comparison. Didn't even occur to me while reading, but same ad thing would apply to comics too.

The "Classifieds" were great, imaginative insights to the world. Worthy of couple smiles too.

I think I might've been more reminded of the 'chat feed' breaks from To Be Taught, If Fortunate, due to the recency of that read ^^'

Just some random thoughts:

For some reason this book reads older than it actually is to me, like something from the ‘60’s although I guess that’s neither here nor there. I like the concept of a sort of gold rush in space with all the inherent risks and rewards. The name “Heechee” annoys me, but I don’t have a good reason why. The MC isn’t all that likable, but I guess his life wasn’t the greatest up to the point where he went up to Gateway.

I liked the fact, that the MC wasn't all that likable. Makes them less of a model and more of a real thing.

"Heechee" reminded me of something else. Alien race from some other work/series, perhaps. If only I could recall 🤔 (I don't think it was "Hisa"... or was it?)

How do you call those page-length additional info thingy? Some are transcripts, legal docs, ads...

Chapter 4
Anyone else got reminded of (view spoiler)[The Expanse (especially the TV series) especially when Bob described the Gateway? (hide spoiler)]

Silvana wrote: "How do you call those page-length additional info thingy? Some are transcripts, legal docs, ads..."

Inserts?

Silvana wrote: "...

Chapter 4
Anyone else got reminded of [spoilers removed]"

Yup, had the same thought.

Regarding Heechee: as long as he doesn't use names with apostrophes in them ...

I'm reading the German translation and there the aliens are called "Hitschi" which looks even weirder.

@Gabi: Daniel Abraham confirmed it after I asked him! He also mentioned Bester's Stars My Destination as inspiration.

Jemppu wrote: "Silvana wrote: "How do you call those page-length additional info thingy? Some are transcripts, legal docs, ads..."

Inserts?"

Thanks!

Silvana wrote: "@Gabi: Daniel Abraham confirmed it after I asked him! He also mentioned Bester's Stars My Destination as inspiration."

And what about Downbelow Station? I got an extreme Expanse vibe there ... Okay, sorry, OT ^^'

It's in my TBR, will ask once I got into it, no worries.

Speaking of the name Heechee, my first thought was actually 'it sounds like me sneezing."

Anyway, gotta get back to the book, now in chapter 6, seriously sometimes I think I spent too much time in GR than reading :p

Silvana wrote: "...Speaking of the name Heechee, my first thought was actually 'it sounds like me sneezing..."

Great. Can't unhear <:D

Gabi, now I wish I had read Expanse. Just to compare.

I’m making fast and enjoyable progress through this. Already up to chapter 10. I don’t read blurbs if I can avoid them, so I didn’t know what to expect of this. I just knew it was considered a classic and won boatloads of awards. I’ve read a couple of Pohl’s short stories and I thought they were both very strong, so I’m not surprised that I’m liking this as much as I am.

It’s always refreshing to read a first-person narrative in which the character clearly has a limited capacity to perceive and express his internal life (one of the reasons I love The Catcher in the Rye) and I’m impressed by Pohl’s ability to bring that home here. I also admire the sense of mystery and dread that pervades the chapters dealing with (view spoiler)[ Gateway and the missing and dead prospectors. (hide spoiler)]

Really strong stuff so far.

Anthony wrote: "...limited capacity to perceive and express his internal life..."

This definitely. This made them feel very real, and did indeed keep a certain suspense throughout the narration. Kept it very personal. I too was surprised how enjoyable this was, both the narrator's inner workings as well as the innovative space faring stuff.

I keep thinking of my 4-star rating of this, seeing no real reason why it shouldn't be full 5... other than perhaps to leave room for improvement for the following volumes.

I felt distant... (view spoiler)[Not sure it’s because I just finished A Little Life... Somehow the character here is a bit annoying... I am sorry... (hide spoiler)]

Just finished chapter 12.

(view spoiler)[ I love the remarkably subtle manner in which Pohl has laid out the courtship and connection between Bob and Klara, and the manner in which they finally decide to sign up for a mission. (hide spoiler)]

I’m through chapter 13: (view spoiler)[I’m struck by the many layers of metaphor woven throughout this story, especially the idea of people risking their lives for fame and riches, escaping a world that’s devolved into famine and war and doing it on the backs of ancient civilizations. I also see a parallel between the Corporation and the US government in the 1700’s and 1800’s encouraging pioneers to “settle” the west, to help the government conquer territory from Native Americans with the promise of land and livestock. It has the same exploitative echo.

And this may be because it comes up in my work, but when Bob is in the “museum” at Gateway, I couldn’t help but think of how many tribal artifacts have been looted by settlers in the American West and sold for profit. (hide spoiler)]

Total agreement, Lesley.

There's plenty of good stuff in here. I'm very glad that you-all are pointing it out; it's helping me appreciate it more. Still, I'm not convinced that I am glad I read this or that I can recommend it widely, as I say in my review:
(view spoiler)[Not bad. Reminds me very much in attitude/ perspective of The Forever War, which had been published just a few years earlier. (If you do want to compare, get the more recent unbowdlerized TFW.) There's a bit of The Space Merchants here, too, which serves to point toward which part of that book was more influenced by Pohl than by Kornbluth.

Still, it's dated, esp. the sociology. I mean, I guess we should give ol' Fred points for including a few "girls" as intrepid explorers, and for talking about atheists as having a legit pov and about homosexuals as merely exotic and fascinating rather than as horrifying. I just can't recommend anyone who has the best modern SF collecting dust on their shelves choose this instead.

The climax and punchline are smart. But we still don't know anything about the Heechee or even why they were given that name. I will probably not continue the series. (hide spoiler)]

Everyone has finished? I think I reached page 200. Still enjoying the story and I love how (view spoiler)[how uncomfortable Bob was with Sigfried. I am reminded of the Crazy Ex Girlfriend series, which was an excellent show about mental illness,involving some interesting sessions with shrinks. (hide spoiler)]

And of course the Heechee (view spoiler)[everytime Bob refers to the fact that we know nothing about them just cracked me up. (hide spoiler)]

On living in the spaceships I happen to just finished Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void so all the description of (view spoiler)[smells, body odor, toilet training etc are just another reminder on how hard it is. (hide spoiler)]

Silvana wrote: " living in the spaceships I happen to just finished Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void so all the description of (view spoiler)"

Yes, I loved those realistic near-future descriptions.

So I have finished and liked it enough to be a four star book.

Most of the enjoyable things have been mentioned up there, yet I was reminded that some folks were uncomfortable with the (view spoiler)[beating scene. (hide spoiler)]

I was not surprised and kind of saw it coming (view spoiler)[and correctly guess Bob would end her life at the end since he was so defensive during his therapy sessions so that means he was hiding something terrible (hide spoiler)] but I just want to gauge your reaction about that scene. Was it too much? Did it influence your enjoyment of the book?

I didn’t think it was too much in that I thought it was consistent with his character, and it was intentionally and meaningfully disruptive and upsetting.

Silvana wrote: "So I have finished and liked it enough to be a four star book.

Most of the enjoyable things have been mentioned up there, yet I was reminded that some folks were uncomfortable with the [spoilers r..."

Bob was an unlikeable character to start with, so I wasn't bothered by that scene. (view spoiler)[ His aggressive behaviour already showed in the thoughts towards his therapist (hide spoiler)]

I’m on page 250 and struggling to finish, I just don’t like Bob much and recent events in the book have put him beyond the pale, still I hate to DNF...

@Silvana While I agree that it was in keeping with his character, I was still disturbed by it especially (view spoiler)[ since the provocation seemed relatively minor. And I was even more disturbed by Klara’s willingness to forgive him. I chalked that up to a product of when the book was written. (hide spoiler)]

Christopher, there are only 50 or pages left, you don't want to miss the ending 😄

Leslie, oh yes, that Klara part was baffling.

Ok, I’ll soldier on!

I finished it and while the book had some neat concepts I disliked the MC enough that I just couldn't give the book any better than one star.

Sorry you did not enjoy it :(

SPOILER



In GATEWAY it's made in the text that our protagonist, Robinette, is an unreliable narrator and a terrible person. Before I came to that realization, I hated this book. I thought the author Frederik Pohl had outdated sexist 1970s era views. No, it’s protagonist Rob that is a repressed asshole. It's something you must come to terms with in-order to enjoy GATEWAY. Most of the complaints I’ve read about the novel have to do with how unbearable Rob is.

(view spoiler)[ Rob is a violent, sexually repressed, sexist, degenerate gambler. No amount of money is enough for him. He frequently throughout the book throws money away on gambles and his account frequently runs dry. And his ego. His soft baby boy ego. His therapist bot has to place foam matts in his room for Rob to kick and squirm on. And Rob is literally STRAPPED into place during his robo therapist sessions because of his tendency to attack the A.I. placed therapy dummy. Personally, our protagonist being a garbage man is what made the book so interesting to me.

Sexuality is fluent in the world presented in Gateway. Men share bunks with men. Women with women. You get the idea. Even though this is clunk, we should give the book credit. It was the 70s and TV/Movies still had decades before this was depicted as common. A gay character in Star Wars would never had flown and changed the discussion around the movie entirely. Early on in GATEWAY Rob is asked about his sexuality.

"I'll take you out for a drink later. It's a custom. Only it's not very interesting until about twenty-two hundred. The Blue Hell'll be full of people then, and I'll introduce you around. See what you can find. What are you, straight, gay, what?"

"I'm pretty straight." Notice the use of the word “pretty” here. Rob is “pretty” straight. But later on, he comes on less kindly when Rob is asked by his love interest Klara "They're not bad guys. How do you get along with gays?" and Rob responds "I leave them alone, they leave me alone.”

Between bouts of chain smoking, we are treated to Rob’s terrible personal inner thoughts throughout the book. He’s prone to pointless verbal altercations with Klara. His inner dialogue chalks up fights he started Klara’s “pre-menstrual behavior”. But a key moment in the book reveals who our protagonist truly is.

After Rob sleeps with another woman, he confronts Klara about sleeping with a man named Dane Metchnikov. Until this moment it’s not clear fully how much Metchnikov weighs on Rob’s mind. And it’s made clear, if you pay attention, why Metchnikov is on his mind.

"Friend!" I barked. The last thing Metchnikov was to anyone was a friend. Just thinking about Klara with him made my groin crawl. I didn't like the sensation, because I couldn't identify it.

Are you getting the picture yet? Anyway, Klara reasonably doesn’t let up. Rob is being a hypocrite. But what she doesn’t know is that he’s waiting for an excuse to kill her.

I reached out to touch her, and she sobbed and hit me, as hard as she could. The blow caught me on the shoulder.

That was a mistake.

I punched her four or five times, as hard as I could, on the breast, in the face, in the belly. She fell to the ground, sobbing. I knelt beside her, lifted her up with one hand and, in absolutely cold blood, slapped her twice more. It was all happening as if choreographed by God, absolutely inevitably; and at the same I could feel that I was breathing as hard as though I'd climbed a mountain on a dead run. The blood was thundering in my ears. Everything I saw was hazed with red.

I turned back toward Klara, who was sitting up, not looking at me, her hand cupped over her mouth. She took the hand away and stared at something in it: a tooth.*
Here we learn that Rob is monstrous person with little control over his emotions. And then there’s the subtext behind his actions. Rob didn’t just beat Klara nearly to death out of some act of betrayal. Or the fact that she hit him first. But due to his repressed feeling towards Dane Metchnikov. What’s worse is Rob goes on to rationalize his decisions. He puts himself into a one man ship on a sort of suicide mission gambling (emphasis on gambling) his life away. When the trip turns out to be dull, he has a temper tantrum and destroys the ship. But then, upon returning to GATEWAY, he encounters Klara again. He proceeds to love bomb her.

I put my arms around her. "I can say that I love you, and I'm sorry, and I want to make it up to you, and I want to get married and live together and have kids and—"

"Jesus, Rob," she said, pushing me away, gently enough, "when you say something you say a lot, don't you? So hold it for a while. It'll keep."

"But it's been months!”

Guys, it’s okay! It’s been months since his attempted murder!

Before our story is over Rob finally concedes that he is at least bi-sexual to his therapist bot.

Sigfrid says gently, "Rob. When you masturbated, did you ever have fantasies about Dane?"

"I hated it," I say.

He waits.

"I hated myself for it. I mean, not hated, exactly. More like despised. Poor goddamn son of a bitch, me, all kinky and awful, beating his meat and thinking about being screwed by his girl's lover."

Now, with all this important information unpacked we reach our final act. An act that I believe is intentionally framed narratively in a confusing way. You see. I believe Rob intentionally killed his friends. I believe that his emotions surrounding them were too much. I believe that he wanted the payout that maid him fabulously rich for himself. I think he launched his friends and Klara directly into a black hole and that he’s forced to live with this guilt. But I think there is satisfaction in knowing he go his way. I omitted something from his attack on Klara earlier. Something that is key here.

I wanted to kill Klara. I had been taming all that stored-up fury, and I hadn't even let myself know it was there until she pulled the trigger.

And finally we have our protagonist coming to terms with his guilt. Our unreliable narrator final drops the only confession he’s capable. A sort of squirm in his seat cowardly half confession to his therapy bot Siegfrid.

"Let's explore that question of guilt, Rob. Guilt why?" "Because I jettisoned nine people to save myself, asshole!" "Has anyone ever accused you of that? Anyone but yourself, I mean?" "Accused?" I blow my nose again, thinking. "Well, no. Why should they? When I got back I was kind of a hero." I think about Shicky, so kind, so mothering; and Francy Hereira holding me in his arms, letting me bawl, even though I'd killed his cousin. "But they weren't there. They didn't see me blow the tanks to get free."

"Did you blow the tanks?"

"Oh, hell, Sigfrid," I say, "I don't know. (hide spoiler)]

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Anna wrote: "Please hide the spoilers!

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