The Pelicans’ Nest discussion

Chapter 2: Spain in America: The Real and the Unreal

The Spanish Conquest

The Spanish Centuries in America

Bartolomé de las Casas, Immortal Zealot

Who was Motolinía? He was one of the original 12 Franciscan friars, Fray Toribio de Benevente, sent to Cortés by the Spanish monarchy after the conquest. A good and humble brother.

His letter to the king of Spain against Las Casas is very important. Why? Well, he arrived to Nueva España right after the conquest, and was truly a part of it in the religious side.

One day when he was preaching to the indigenous people, there was a young man in the crowd. Some say he was a prince, others say he was a pauper. Well, upon hearing Brothee Motolinía’s proclamation of the Gospel, this young man and his wife were converted and baptized. This young man took the name, Juan Diego, and a few years later, in 1531, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to him on Mt. Tepayac, located in the current Mexico City.

Juan Diego was instructed to have Bishop Zumaraga build Her a church on that mountain, which he eventually did. The whole story culminated in a rapid conversion of some 7 million indigenous to the Catholic Faith.

Zumaraga’s presence is very important to this study as well. Before becoming bishop of Nueva España he was a lowly friar on a Spanish island.

Why was he, rather than one like Las Casas chosen?

Well, when Cortés asked the monarchy for a bishop, he begged that it not be a court bishop, full of vice and conspiracy, as he knew such a choice would destroy all of the conversion he so strongly faught for thus far among the indigenous people. Cortés, in action and word, held the indigenous in very high esteem.

I have finished chapter 2. I am not sure what to make of part 1. I was surprised to read that there is a widespread prejudice against people of Spain and Portugal. I have never come across this. Of course I recognized the image of the Spanish gangster, but as the author pointed out, there are negative stereotypes of every land painted by their enemies. I was not surprised that the author could find British quotes of the Elizabethian era portraying Spaniards in the Americas acting less ethically than the British. These countries were not exactly best friends at this time. I would be more surprised if I could not find a similar negative assessement of British behavior by a Spanish writer.

At times, this author seems to be justifying the conquest of native peoples by Spain, the Inquisition's often brutal practices and other bits of history that modern sensibility would find repugnant. I have never been taught that one European country was inherently more ethical in its treatment of native populations than another. Could we say that the era of exploration had a similar pattern of conquest of the Americas and its native population? Absolutely. Does it make it any more acceptable today to look back and say that everyone was doing it? Absolutely Not! The same goes for the torture of religious heretics or others who did not conform. I must admit that I am more repulsed by the Inquisition than I am by England's slaughter of witches or Catholics/Protestants in its years of wars because I am a Catholic and this was done by the Church I love in the name of the God I adore. So, I think it is a greater travesty. But, I don't associate it with Spain, but with the Catholic Church. This was not limited to Spain.

I do recognize a prejudice in the US against Hispanics. But, my experience is that it is part of our long history of prejudice against the immigrant. I have never encountered negative comments or actions against people from Spain or Portugal. Because it was primarily immigrants from the DR, Mexico and PR (I know that immigrant is not the right term for PR who are citizens) that populated my community growing up, the prejudices seemed to be targeted at these groups. But the same was tru for those from India and Pakastan who were immigrating to my community when I grew up. I never encountered negative comments about or reactions to people from Argentina, Peru, Bolivia, etc. (As the war on drugs heated up and Columbia was implicated in the press, I did start to encounter some negative reactions to people from there).

I know I can't evaluate this book and its observations from my personal experience. I am just having a hard time accepting that there is this widespread hatred of Spain.

The Spanish Conquest was nothing as brutal as the colonization of the USA. The Spaniards, for the most part, treated the indigenous as equals, to the extent that the line of Moctezuma was added to European royalty, and there ate European royals today with that line. In most of Mexico the mayors of cities were the caciques of the natives. There was a whole body of law created to protect the rights of the indigenous peoples under Spanish rule.

I understand that in South America things were worse, but even Hernan Cortes was a great lover of the indigenous people, so much so that he named one of his sons Moctezuma. As he was living in Dpain toward the end of his life, he wrote in his will to give back any property that may have been unjustly granted him to the natives it justly belonged to.

Most of the history we get, and many of thosr get, especially in Mexico, is a complete lie written by the Freemasons that took power shortly after Mexico’s war for independence.

My sources are the primary sources which should be used by professors, teachers and historians, but rarely is. My wife, from Mexico, is also a scholar on Mexican history. So, not only have I read, and do I own copies of, most primary source material, I have her teaching me.

I tell you, most of what any of us ever learned concerning the Conquest by Spain is a lie, both against Spain and the Catholic Church. That is why I was so excited when I found this book. It is easy to read, and has much of the apologia that is so necessary to learn so ad to have better relations with out next-door neighbors.

Do you think there is still a wide spread prejudice against Spain and Portugal? I don't mean Mexico, but Spain.

I think that there is much more prejudice contra Latin America now, at least here in America. There is certainly a huge gap in the grasp of history concerning the Conquest of the Americas and the Inquisition of Spain. I am not sure how much of that is now aimed at Spain vs how much is aimed at the Catholic Church.

The Black Legend seems to be a key ingredient causing Hispanoamericans to be viewed as less than, but another key ingredient is the ingrained belief that anyone born a citizen of the great USA is elite just for that purpose. But even that pendulum is swinging far in the other direction, with a huge wave of self deprecation seeeping over many in our nation. It is a strange over correction... I never really thought this out at all until now.

I do think that a lot of the causes via Black Legend that have caused American condescension of Hispanoamericans has been forgotten, and sentiments, rather than reasons are what has been passed down in the last generations. The book was originally published in 1971 I believe.

The black legend is a new concept for me. I can be quite the skeptic. Since this author and this concept are both unknowns to me, I will need to have this concept verified by other scholars before I can fully embrace it. I agree that there is quite a bit of negative stereotypes about some Hispanic nations, but I have never associated that with negative images of Spaniards. Rather, it seems to be a trend in this country to villanize the "other", which ever group arrives in large numbers, especially if they come with a different language and/or from poverty. When there is a physical characteristic such as darker skin pigmentation or different facial structure, I think it becomes harder for the second generation to blend into the white European culture here and so the negative stereotypes last longer. We see that with Hispanics, with Asian Americans, with African Americans, with Indian Americans, etc. So, whether or not there was a pre-existing "black legend" that caused Europeans from mor western or northern countries to hold negative attitudes toward Spain and Portugal, I think we would still see a prejudice in this country against those who arrive here from Hispanic countries.

As for the Conquest, I would urge tou to read Bernal Diaz del Castillo’s Conquest of New Spain and the Letters of Cortes to the King. Those are primary sources that most scholars tend to ignore. Also, the book, Mexico Land of Volcanoes by Schlarman. None of these books are in print and you would have to get them through bookfinder or some similar way.

The book by Schlarman was lifechanging for me. It helped me put so much of my compartmentalized knowledge from my whole life into a connected network of knowledge. That goes even for things not related at all to the subject matter. It gave me a perspective of the forest, when I could only see the trees my whole life. My wife turned me on to the book. She read it in Spanish at the age of 14, and it was also a transformative book for her.

With our current revisionist culture in academia, I am surprised there are not more contemporary texts plumbing this alternative view of Spanish history in the Americas.