Reading the Chunksters discussion

Ah, our fabulous fall/winter read begins! I will post a summary and comments later today or tomorrow, but feel free to get started with posting on our first section: Chapters I - VII (Three Editors - Mentor)

Ah, retirement! On account of buying the condo in Florida, getting it cleaned up and remodeled, selling our condo in Ohio, and a generous heaping of dental work throughout, I completely missed Cryptonomicon. And I have an awful time keeping track of the days. I thought yesterday was October 1.

So I started. All I will say now is Lady Carbury is a hot mess. And there is more than a little humor here. Kiss kiss!

When I downloaded the e-book, I found I had read up to ch. vi at some point. But I went back to the beginning.

Got this annotation for the Latin motto of the Evening Pulpit:

The Royal Society website explains the motto thus:

It is an expression of the determination of Fellows to withstand the domination of authority and to verify all statements by an appeal to facts determined by experiment.[2]

The phrase comes from Horace's Epistle to his benefactor Maecenas,[3][4] where he claims not to be devoted to any particular sect but is rather an eclectic by nature.[5] The motto was extracted from the first of two hexameters, as indicated in bold:

Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri, – quo me cumque rapit tempestas, deferor hospes.
("(being) not obliged to swear in words (allegiance) to a master, wherever the storm drags me, I am turned in as a guest.")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullius...

And, lest we doubt the satirical bent:

A newspaper that wishes to make its fortune should never waste its columns and weary its readers by praising anything.  Eulogy is invariably dull,—a fact that Mr Alf had discovered and had utilized.

So, how much of The Way We Live Now is the way they lived then, and how much is STILL the way we live now?

The first two chapters are interesting - illuminating two sides of Lady Carbury. She is false, but has good in her. She has emerged a victorious widow from a grim but lucrative marriage. She is beautiful and uses this to her advantage whenever possible. At 43 she refers to herself as old but doesn’t really believe it (which I appreciate at age 42!). She would love to have articles written about her great novel, but doesn’t really have it in her to write one. It seems that people humor her, but that she isn’t really pulling one over on anyone. Her son seems like a spoiled brat, and her daughter, well, it remains to be seen. Do we like Lady C? I can’t quite decide just yet. She is petty and superficial, but has rebuilt herself after an abusive marriage and has quite a lot of spunk!

All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

Blech. Those are so gross.

Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

Actually, I keep thinking Danbury. Is that Downton Abbey?

Lady Carbury seems somewhat like my younger sister was back in the day. Boy, she could charm people into doing all sorts of favors for her. And she wasn't and isn't a bad person, either. But my husband called her an operator. And for over 30 years, that's the word we both use when we encounter someone who has that freakishly uncanny ability, which we so sorely lack.

Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

I admit I do keep thinking Cadbury but Cadbury’s dairy milk, not cream eggs.

I like Lady Carbury. She wants good things for her children and seems genuinely interested in their wellbeing as opposed to furthering her own interests, which several other Trollope females were guilty of. She is content with life even though not everything is rosy and has charm and intelligence. True she is a little weak where her son is concerned but she at least does recognize some of his failings rather than hold him up as a paragon of all virtue.

I think Augustus Melmotte is a wonderful name and somehow conjures up someone who is bit sinister. So far I like and feel sorry for Marie.

The Henrietta/ Roger/Paul love triangle is just beginning. Early days yet but already a lot of interesting threads.

Dianne wrote: "Do we like Lady C?"

I don't have much sympathy for her. Her son is a major accident waiting to happen, and she does nothing to stop him - on the contrary, she gives him money and will not get him away from London. She is an enabler, and I think she would do well to not be satisfied by merely asking Roger Carbury's advice, but to follow it too. I think she is a major part of the ruin which I think it likely that Felix will bring himself and others into later on (I don't know what will happen, but the prospects look bleak.)

I feel sorry for Henrietta as well. Lady Carbury's strong affection for her son doesn't seem to have stretched to include her daughter to the same degree, even saying to her after the ball that "you could save me from much if you would" - though I don't think Henrietta is the problem child here.

Also, it seems that her main reason for wanting her daughter to marry Roger is to get her out of the way so Lady C can devote her time to her son instead:

"Lady Carbury's desire for a union between Roger and her daughter was greatly increased by her solicitude in respect to her son. Since Roger's offer had first been made, Felix had gone on from bad to worse, till his condition had become one of hopeless embarrassment. If her daughter could but be settled in the world, Lady Carbury said to herself, she could then devote herself to the interests of her son. Ch. VII

It matters little to Lady C that Henrietta isn't interested in Roger romantically. If she would only marry, Lady C doesn't have to spend much time on her and she would then be able to help Felix - though how exactly she thinks she can help when all she has done so far is smooth his way down the wrong turning he has made, I don't know.

I am not saying there is nothing good in Lady Carbury, but to me the bad far outweighs the good that she does.

Nina wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Do we like Lady C?"

I don't have much sympathy for her. Her son is a major accident waiting to happen, and she does nothing to stop him - on the contrary, she gives him money and wi..."

I do like Lady C. But her priorities seem horribly skewed. What kid of mother wants to just marry off her daughter so she can devote herself to her son? But we must remember, Lady C was penniless and married a man who, at the time, had some wealth and left her with a title. If that was good enough for her, perhaps she thinks it's good enough for Henrietta.

Funny that Felix's idea of making his way in the world is to marry well himself. Henrietta has no such designs, so far at least.

Hummingbirder wrote: "I do like Lady C. But her priorities seem horribly skewed. What kid of mother wants to just marry off her daughter so she can devote herself to her son? "

I like her too, H. Outside the family, for a woman of few options she does well in the world of 'meet and deal.' I loved her psychological gymnastics during what I call "The Kiss."

Inside the family, things are different. I don't know if this will be a theme, but in the first chapter she manipulates men (not cruelly, in my opinion), while in the second her son manipulates her (thoughtlessly, if not cruelly). Young Felix is a disaster, a coward (white feather) and a profligate.

I've never read Trollope or read about him before, so it's a little early to get a read on him for me.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Ah, retirement! On account of buying the condo in Florida, getting it cleaned up and remodeled, selling our condo in Ohio, and a generous heaping of dental work throughout, I completely missed Cryp..."

Congratulations! All of those sound like grand accomplishments - well done! I agree Lady C seems to be quite the purveyor of men. We will see how she plays her hand in the book!

Christopher wrote: "When I downloaded the e-book, I found I had read up to ch. vi at some point. But I went back to the beginning.

Got this annotation for the Latin motto of the Evening Pulpit:

The Royal Society web..."

who do you think this applies to?

Christopher wrote: "And, lest we doubt the satirical bent:

A newspaper that wishes to make its fortune should never waste its columns and weary its readers by praising anything.  Eulogy is invariably dull,—a fact tha..."

I am viewing all of this as a grand sweeping satire, there is much to be picked up on! I can only imagine what kind of field day Trollope would have had in this day and age of facebook and instagram.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

Actually, I keep thinking Danbury. Is that Downton Abbey?

Lady Carbury seems somewhat like my younger sist..."

Perfect! The smooth operator! (now you will have the song in your head all day...)

Tracey the Bookworm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

I admit I do keep thinking Cadbury but Cadbury’s dairy milk, not cream eggs."

Continuing the sidebar - Cadbury is only good if it is the UK kind. For some reason it tastes totally different in the US.

Nina wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Do we like Lady C?"

I don't have much sympathy for her. Her son is a major accident waiting to happen, and she does nothing to stop him - on the contrary, she gives him money and wi..."

Felix! He is less of a Smooth Operator and more of a Manipulator! It's clear that he doesn't give his mother's entreaties a second thought and has no cognizance of anything other than what he wants, right now.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Nina wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Do we like Lady C?"

I don't have much sympathy for her. Her son is a major accident waiting to happen, and she does nothing to stop him - on the contrary, she gives him..."

Felix's pursuit over the lady with the highest $$ is terribly amusing. He is not subtle about it either! I'm sure he is in a small community - doesn't everyone see what he is up to?

Lady C's daughter - I always have to remind myself of the different gender roles that were applicable during this time - marriage may well have been her 'best bet' and perhaps she didn't realistically see other options for her.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "I do like Lady C. But her priorities seem horribly skewed. What kid of mother wants to just marry off her daughter so she can devote herself to her son? "

I like her too, H. ..."

Great insights on these 2 characters Xan. I appreciate that Trollope painted them so intricately, and in a way that is neither all good nor all bad - they each have their own weaknesses but their own 'strengths' (or at least, foibles that make them likeable in some form of fashion). Felix is quite clueless, and perhaps it is not his fault if no one has illuminated him of this fact.

It's too soon to tell for certain, but Henrietta and Felix both seem to have learned from their mother. Henrietta knows marriage may not be a happy thing, and sees her mother managing the household. Struggling, but managing. And doesn't Felix know his mother married up? Why shouldn't he?

Hummingbirder wrote: "It's too soon to tell for certain, but Henrietta and Felix both seem to have learned from their mother. Henrietta knows marriage may not be a happy thing, and sees her mother managing the household..."


Felix certainly did - his carefully orchestrated line that he loves Marie most in the world was worthy of a collective reader eyeroll, but Marie bought it hook, line and sinker. I was impressed with this line however: "I should like to tell you everything about yourself, from the beginning to the end." - slick!

What did you all think about this note in Melmotte's Ball: Whether Sir Felix be rich or poor, the world, evil-hearted as it is, will never think of him a fine fellow.

One thing we do know is that he has the seed of a gambling addiction: "So he argued with himself; but in truth the devil of gambling was hot within his bosom; and though he feared that in losing he might lose real money, and that if he won it would be long before he was paid, yet he could not keep himself from the card-table."

Why do you think this caution to the reader was dropped in? What do you think it foreshadows?

Nina wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Do we like Lady C?"

I don't have much sympathy for her. Her son is a major accident waiting to happen, and she does nothing to stop him - on the contrary, she gives him money and wi..."

So far Henrietta is the least sketched out of the main characters, and she seems similarly disregarded by her own family. I can't yet tell if it will be a real love triangle - will Roger succeed in boxing Montague out? H seems less inclined to be direct and speak her mind compared to her mother, and seems earnest and less calculating that her mother and brother in her dealings with others.

Dianne wrote: What did you all think about this note in Melmotte's Ball: Whether Sir Felix be rich or poor, the world, evil-hearted as it is, will never think of him a fine fellow.

Is Felix really any worse than anyone else? Trollope could have said "no matter what Sir Felix does..." Here, at least, I see a bit of sympathy from the author, because there are people who are generally disliked. I mean, I know people who are just not liked by others. They're irritating, or needy, or showoffs. And when I've sat and quietly reflected about such people, I've thought they're not necessarily bad people.

Don't get me wrong; I don't like unlikeable people myself. But I think sometimes we all see little social injustices that are never going to be undone.

I don't know if Felix will turn likeable or not. So far, he's a spoiled brat living in his mother's basement.

Dianne wrote: "Tracey the Bookworm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "All right, admit, every time you read "Carbury" you are thinking:

"

I admit I do keep thinking Cadbury but Cadbury’s dairy milk, not cream eggs."

..."

The US type tastes to me like it is made of wax. In the UK yummy chocolate everywhere hard to resist, here, not a problem.

Dianne wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "It's too soon to tell for certain, but Henrietta and Felix both seem to have learned from their mother. Henrietta knows marriage may not be a happy thing, and sees her mother ..."

A self-made man and a Jew at that. Oh no! Victorian British society would never like him.
What is being foretold? Well, the devil abandons those who worship him and I am thinking this little devil that has thus far given him huge amounts of lady luck will drop him from a great height.

I noted comments about Lady C, which are correct but given the time she lives in and the psychology of the times, I still think she is not bad. Not a Mrs Proudie for sure.
As for Felix/Lady C question: Males were simply seen as superior and more important in a family and given the main chance. The biggest portion of food in a poor family. etc.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Dianne wrote: What did you all think about this note in Melmotte's Ball: Whether Sir Felix be rich or poor, the world, evil-hearted as it is, will never think of him a fine fellow.

Is Felix reall..."

I think he has been indulged way too much by his mother and is now too deep into his own selfishness to emerge, even if he didn't have a gambling addiction. Roger's 'tough love' advice will never be adopted by Lady C!

Tracey the Bookworm wrote: "I noted comments about Lady C, which are correct but given the time she lives in and the psychology of the times, I still think she is not bad. Not a Mrs Proudie for sure.
As for Felix/Lady C quest..."

Agreed, I think she is clever and does what she can with the little she has to work with. Networking for her book was brilliant.

I think you are right Tracey about men being perceived as more valuable at the time - particularly those that can actually contribute! But is an ingrate like Felix STILL more valuable than a woman, solely based on his gender? It seems so!

Tracey the Bookworm wrote: "As for Felix/Lady C question: Males were simply seen as superior and more important in a family and given the main chance. The biggest portion of food in a poor family. etc."

But seeing your son as superior and more important is not the same as indulging his every vice as Lady Carbury seems to do. It is possible to prefer your son and help him on his way in life, to smooth his path more than the daughter's, without spoiling him and rejoicing in his wrong-doings:

"Even during the career of his folly she had hardly ventured to say a word to him with the purport of stopping him on his road to ruin. In everything she had spoilt him as a boy, and in everything she still spoilt him as a man. She was almost proud of his vices, and had taken delight in hearing of doings which if not vicious of themselves had been ruinous from their extravagance. She had so indulged him that even in her own presence he was never ashamed of his own selfishness or apparently conscious of the injustice which he did to others. Ch. II

Lady C has overdone her indulgence a bit :) Duty, consideration for others, kindness, responsibility etc., doesn't seem to have been part of the values she taught her son. As a result, sir Felix might be beautiful, but he is also selfish and has a heart of stone (Trollope's words).

Trying to read a chapter a day. I just finished ch. 4, about the Melmotte's ball.

I thought it was interesting that the 'trope' of the rich would-be in-law who balks at tying up capital in a marriage settlement was one I just encountered in another book: The Pursuit of Love.

Mitford:

... The arrangements for the wedding did not go smoothly. There was trouble without end over settlements. Uncle Matthew, whose estate provided a certain sum of money for younger children, to be allocated by him as he thought best, very naturally did not wish to settle anything on Linda, at the expense of the others, in view of the fact that she was marrying the son of a millionaire. Sir Leicester, however, refused to settle a penny unless Uncle Matthew did—he had no great wish to make a settlement in any case, saying that it was against the policy of his family to tie up capital sums. In the end, by sheer persistence, Uncle Matthew got a beggarly amount for Linda. The whole thing worried and upset him very much, and confirmed him, if need be, in his hatred of the Teutonic race.

Trollope:

... Melmotte had not objected to the sum,—so it was said,—but had proposed to tie it up.  Nidderdale had desired to have it free in his own grasp, and would not move on any other terms.  Melmotte had been anxious to secure the Marquis,—very anxious to secure the Marchioness; for at that time terms had not been made with the Duchess; but at last he had lost his temper, and had asked his lordship's lawyer whether it was likely that he would entrust such a sum of money to such a man.  "You are willing to trust your only child to him," said the lawyer.  Melmotte scowled at the man for a few seconds from under his bushy eyebrows; then told him that his answer had nothing in it, and marched out of the room.  So that affair was over. 

(Come to think of it, the joke is the same, but the particulars are almost opposite)

Hummingbirder wrote: "I don't know if Felix will turn likeable or not. So far, he's a spoiled brat living in his mother's basement."

Great line. Pretty much sums up Felix.

A problem of his is all his "buddies" were born into money, and he wasn't. I wonder how that got started? I'm probably behind all of you (just starting chapter 5), but so far I know nothing of how he became the way he is. No matter how indulgent his mother was and his father might have been, they never had this kind of money to waste on him.

These guys lose hundreds of pounds a night without blinking. That is a loss Felix cannot recover from, and I can't see how it won't happen to him. He better marry a bank quickly.

I feel like ch. 6 switched gears with the introduction of the Carbury- Sir Roger, is it?- the "country" Carbury.



And his best friend and rival for Henrietta, Paul Montague.

Christopher wrote: "I feel like ch. 6 switched gears with the introduction of the Carbury- Sir Roger, is it?- the "country" Carbury.

And his best friend and rival for Henrietta, Paul Montague."

Roger is a striking contrast to Felix. Born with money and his title, and socially conservative. Felix is the sort of creature he can't stand. But he does have the hots for Henrietta.

Does anyone else think we are seeing only the passive side of a passive-aggressive Henrietta? She won't cross her eyes, let alone anyone else, but no one can keep up that facade forever, can she?

Nina wrote: "Tracey the Bookworm wrote: "As for Felix/Lady C question: Males were simply seen as superior and more important in a family and given the main chance. The biggest portion of food in a poor family. ..."

Great excerpt Tracey - indeed - "proud of his vices" - yikes! No wonder he doesn't care if he misbehaves in front of her and doesn't bother waking up until noon! I can't imagine him ever functioning independently. Is Lady C right in continuing his caretaking of him since she has in part created this monster?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hummingbirder wrote: "I don't know if Felix will turn likeable or not. So far, he's a spoiled brat living in his mother's basement."

Great line. Pretty much sums up Felix.

A problem of his is all..."

Great insight Xan - and I think that is exactly what he is after! He would probably prefer to marry a bank but will settle for the nearest female form that can accomplish the same end for him!

Christopher wrote: "I feel like ch. 6 switched gears with the introduction of the Carbury- Sir Roger, is it?- the "country" Carbury.



And his best friend and rival for Henrietta, Paul Montague."

Ok now I want Cadbury. This box looks delicious!

I don't understand how there can be true 'rivalries' between Roger and Paul or between Felix, and, well, anyone. Can these penniless men really compete in an era when women's best means of financial advancement were through marriage? Weren't marriages often arranged precisely for that end? So confused.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I feel like ch. 6 switched gears with the introduction of the Carbury- Sir Roger, is it?- the "country" Carbury.

And his best friend and rival for Henrietta, Paul Montague."

R..."

I wish Henrietta was a bit more developed - so far we don't have great insight into her. She does seem to have the most sense of her immediate family! I'm not sure why she wasn't more direct though in her rejection of Roger.

I'm late. I had trouble getting a copy. Kindle wouldn't take the copy I purchased. This is how I recapped it:
*Roger is in love with Cousin Henrietta
*Paul, Roger's protege, is in love with Henrietta
*Widow Carbury is in love with her Literature
*Felix is in love with himself.

It just seems to me that Lady C would not force her daughter in a marriage after she had to leave her own and had to bear all of the slander. So strange to me. Enjoyed reading all the comments. I can't decide if I do or don't like the Lady. Right now, Roger is my favorite Carbury.

Trying to catch up..
I was well into chapter 3 before I realized it was Carbury, not Cadbury :-)
Same problem we have today with debt and people feeling entitled to live beyond their means.
I decided to read this book because I am interested in Railway Mania, but I see now this is a little later, and the speculative investments in the novel are in US railroads.
Enjoying it so far.
Thanks to Dianne for hosting.

I'm hoping to get this read in November, it's been in my Kindle TBR forever. Looking forward to cringing at the parallels between then and now.

Tammy Dayton wrote: "I'm late. I had trouble getting a copy. Kindle wouldn't take the copy I purchased. This is how I recapped it:
*Roger is in love with Cousin Henrietta
*Paul, Roger's protege, is in love with Henriet..."

I LOVE that you said that Lady loves her literature! Indeed she seems to know just what she is doing and likes her literature and her machinations relating to that.

Penney wrote: "Trying to catch up..
I was well into chapter 3 before I realized it was Carbury, not Cadbury :-)
Same problem we have today with debt and people feeling entitled to live beyond their means.
I deci..."

SO glad you have joined us Penney! It's so true that many people today feel entitled to live beyond their means - I MUST have the latest iPhone, the nicest car/house/etc I can afford. I wonder how many live deliberately beneath their means in the US?

Janice (JG) wrote: "I'm hoping to get this read in November, it's been in my Kindle TBR forever. Looking forward to cringing at the parallels between then and now."

Wonderful to see you here JG! The novel is deliciously cringe-worthy!