Reading the Chunksters discussion

Chapters 8-11

I can't help but think that the title of the first chapter in this section is rather ironic - Love-Sick indeed! At least I suspect many of the readers are sick at his effusive yet false-ringing entreaties to our unsuspecting Marie. Despite his propensity for folly, however, it appears in subsequent chapters that he has become a named partner in a railway enterprise - but why? It's not clear how he ended up in this position with no wealth or talents to speak of. Is the enterprise just a massive swindle? Meanwhile, Lady C has her book demolished in the press, and probably rightfully so. In the end she seems to take it all in stride as some press is better than no press it seems!

(I'll post on chapters 12-15 separately)

Mr. Fisker, the American, swept him on to the board to convince Melotte to buy in on the swind - er, railroad. Fast talker, that Fisker. Quite the card sharp, too.

I got so caught up in that part of the story, I forgot about Lady C"s book. But maybe we should remember it. Who knows? It could make some money for her to give to Felix.

I just came to check in on comments and leave some thoughts and realized I have gone terribly far ahead (audio) without realizing... I'm going to pick up something else for now and wait for folks to catch up so I can be on schedule.

Am I the only one who wants to read Lady C's book?!

Am I the only one who wants to read Lady C's book?!

Ha ha! No, you aren't. I want the dirt on these queens!

I hope it is alright to talk about the IOUs. How confusing for someone as simple as I am. Who was responsible in paying Mr. Fisker? Even if Felix had his friends' IOUs, shouldn't he had been the one to pay the house's miniloan?

Tammy Dayton wrote: "I hope it is alright to talk about the IOUs. How confusing for someone as simple as I am. Who was responsible in paying Mr. Fisker? Even if Felix had his friends' IOUs, shouldn't he had been the on..."

I've never been a gambler. I found this somewhat confusing, too. I think because there were so many IOUs they seem like Monopoly money to me. Maybe someone else can chime in here. I thought Felix should pay, too, but if he paid, then shouldn't all the IOUs be paid?

I mean, if Felix was forced by his peers to pay Mr. Fisker, shouldn't Greenwell (is that his name?) have to pay Felix? I found it very awkward. I wonder if any of these fellows actually have the cash to pay their IOUs. We know Felix doesn't. And no one wants to force the issue. Hence the house loan? I'm not sure.

I would like to know if I'm the only one who is reading Beargarden as Beergarden.

I found this confusing too but I am wondering if this was the author’s intention. Is Trollope trying to show that they way we live now’ is all nonsense.

Hummingbirder wrote: "Mr. Fisker, the American, swept him on to the board to convince Melotte to buy in on the swind - er, railroad. Fast talker, that Fisker. Quite the card sharp, too.

I got so caught up in that part ..."

Fast talker Fisher - nice! The whole lot of them
seem to be a bunch of swindlers to me! I suspect this is not the first foray for some of these gentlemen into dubious enterprises - I wonder if we will learn more about their past or about how/why the board was selected.

Jen wrote: "I just came to check in on comments and leave some thoughts and realized I have gone terribly far ahead (audio) without realizing... I'm going to pick up something else for now and wait for folks t..."

No problem Jen! What are your thoughts on this section?

Hummingbirder wrote: "Am I the only one who wants to read Lady C's book?!

Ha ha! No, you aren't. I want the dirt on these queens!"

And well... I would read it but suspect I would probably have to put it down with an eye roll!

Tammy Dayton wrote: "I hope it is alright to talk about the IOUs. How confusing for someone as simple as I am. Who was responsible in paying Mr. Fisker? Even if Felix had his friends' IOUs, shouldn't he had been the on..."

Absolutely we can talk whatever you would like! I agree with Tracy that I think this is supposed to be somewhat ambiguous at this point. it’s unclear why they would pick Felix of all people to be a director but that alone will tell you there is some great swindle going on. I think we will learn more about the particulars of these suspect financial arrangements and the floating of shares in the company as the book goes on.

Chapter 12

In chapter 12 it was difficult to see Lady Carbury literally waiting up all night long for her son until daylight. I thought this quote was interesting: “her happiness, like that of most of us, was ever in the future, - never reached but always coming.” What a sad way to live! In any event, we know that she derives happiness only from her son - who seems to be a lost cause. Amazingly, this did not seem to hamper him and his romantic pursuits - why do you think the Melmotte family would not have objected to Felix’s pursuit of Marie?

Chapter 13

In this chapter we are introduced to the Longestaffe family - who also seem to be in financial distress due to their inability to handle their financial affairs responsibly. Son Dolly (was this really a common name for a man at this time??) refuses to agree to sell the family property Pickering even when it would be to his own financial advantage. Of course what is hilarious is that the result of this is that the family will not be able to go to London for the season this year and all of the Longstaffe women are in utter despair and are left to “deplore their fate” and Lady Pomona “was ill, and sat in a corner on the sofa wiping her eyes.”

Was it typical during this time period for families to reside in two different locations based on the season? Will the family lose social status if they are unable to do so? Why do you think Dolly refuses to sell the property if it is to his family’s advantage?

Chapters 14 -15

In these chapters we see Lady Carbury with her machinations in full effect! She arranges a visit to Carbury Manor with two objectives -so her daughter can be around Roger and hopefully further that relationship, and so that Felix can be near the Melmotte family and he can further his pursuit of Marie. Roger doesn’t love this plan even before he realizes what Lady C is up to. When he speaks his mind she guilt trips him so badly that he ends up having to agree to her entire plan - much to her delight. Meanwhile, Paul had planned a visit to Carbury Manor at the same time and was sidelined by Roger so that he wouldn’t be around Henrietta - so we will see what happens there.

What was most interesting to me in this section was that Roger clearly indicated that he detested Felix most of all people in the world - yet he was so wedded to the idea that his property should only be inherited by a family member that he willed the entire Manor to Felix. Was it really completely unacceptable during this time to sell property outside of the family if only to preserve it?

We also get a glimpse into the character of Lady C here because the author notes that he judges her with “almost absolute accuracy.” In his description she is not described as selfish but is entirely material and content to live in falsehood if it achieves her aim. He is afraid Henrietta might be defiled by her mother’s “touch of pitch” - do you think that will happen?

Regarding Dolly not selling his property, and Roger deciding to leave his to Felix, some characters have expressed their interest in their real estate is a lifetime interest. Not a financial one, but their responsibility, so they can leave it to someone else in the family and keep it in the family. Dolly doesn't want to let go of a lifetime interest because he's conditioned not to. Roger will leave his estate to Felix no matter what because that's what's done. Keeping it in the family.

Lady C is trying to position her children to take advantage of this through other people's families! Roger for Henrietta, and Marie for Felix. Might have been normal then, but it's not normal now. I do not know if Henrietta is defiled by her mother's touch of pitch. The author leaves her a bit of a cypher. I really don't know what to think of Henrietta's character.

Families living in two homes is still a thing. Many of my neighbors here on Siesta Key are still up north but will arrive soon for "the season." October through April are referred to as "the season" here, not merely because of tourism, but because there are so many who live here during that time, and elsewhere the rest of the year. And there are a good many social events during the season. I've not yet experienced them, but I know they exist.

Most of the snow birds want to keep their homes up north because their children and grandchildren live up north and they say they want to be near them during the warmer months. They also rather look down their noses at the idear of spending the hot, hot summers in Florida. I find this materialistic as hell.

And don't get me wrong. Though they don't live on Siesta Key, I have siblings who do this. It baffles me as it is expensive to maintain two homes, and many people can only do so if they rent out one or the other the part of the year when they're not living in it. They're not different from the Longstaffes. And now having spent an entire summer here, I can say it isn't as unbearable as the snow birds claim it is. We have air conditioning, and the mornings and evenings feel much cooler than the hot afternoons. As long as you can find some shade and perhaps a pool to cool off, it's really lovely, even in the summer heat. The dual home situation seems nonsensical to me. However, as in Caversham during the season, there is no one here in the summer. It's like a ghost town.

I'm not sure anyone in this book lives by reason, except perhaps Mr. Melmotte, who is portrayed as dastardly. They all have intentions, but are bound by a sense of duty and/or their flights of imagination. Even now, though, who lives using reason only?

Dianne wrote: "Chapter 13

In this chapter we are introduced to the Longestaffe family - who also seem to be in financial distress due to their inability to handle their financial affairs responsibly. Son Dolly ..."

Yes, from reading other Victorian novels I've learned that having a country home and a place in London for 'the season' was typical for upper class families. (And still the case for many with the means to do so.)

But what really strikes me reading this - and an earlier reference from somewhere in the book I can't recall - is the notion that a less expensive alternative would be to head for the Continent (in lieu of skipping London for the spring / summer months). Really!? Was it actually less expensive to spend time in France etc? And was it seen to be a sign that a family might be struggling financially if they went travelling in Europe? Or maybe it was a way to mask your financial circumstances, because you could live on a more restricted budget without being 'seen'?

I think going to the continent may have been to save money, but also because of being "shunned by society."

Don't Maria and Aunt Norris retire to the continent at the end of Mansfield Park?

Hummingbirder wrote: "Regarding Dolly not selling his property, and Roger deciding to leave his to Felix, some characters have expressed their interest in their real estate is a lifetime interest. Not a financial one, b..."

Excellent points HB! It takes a long time to move past “what is done” and in some Way I admire Lady C for actively thinking about how to take it advantage of the system to benefit her family. I think the author is poking fun at most of the characters in the novel and certainly agree that most do not operate through reason - probably that is a large part of the point. In fact does it seem like there is anyone that the author specifically supports at this point? Perhaps Henrietta, although as you point out she is a bit of a cypher for now.

Your Florida digs sound amazing ! In Pennsylvania where I live some people have two homes also although the second homes tend to be shore houses in New Jersey or lake houses in the mountains. I miss Florida ! I lived in plantation for four years as a kid.

Christopher wrote: "I think going to the continent may have been to save money, but also because of being "shunned by society."

Don't Maria and Aunt Norris retire to the continent at the end of Mansfield Park?"

What are your thoughts on being shunned by society Christopher? Curious about that.

sadly I have not read MP so i can't comment on that! Would their retirement to the continent mean that they had achieved their aims, or settled beneath them?

JA says very little about where they go, but certainly makes clear that it is because they are 'dead' to their own family:

... As a daughter, he hoped a penitent one, she should be protected by him, and secured in every comfort, and supported by every encouragement to do right, which their relative situations admitted; but farther than that he could not go. Maria had destroyed her own character, and he would not, by a vain attempt to restore what never could be restored, by affording his sanction to vice, or in seeking to lessen its disgrace, be anywise accessory to introducing such misery in another man's family as he had known himself.

It ended in Mrs. Norris's resolving to quit Mansfield and devote herself to her unfortunate Maria, and in an establishment being formed for them in another country, remote and private, where, shut up together with little society, on one side no affection, on the other no judgment, it may be reasonably supposed that their tempers became their mutual punishment.

Just getting to ch. 11 now. I looked up the infamous OG "every schoolboy knows" formulation:

"... Every schoolboy knows who imprisoned Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa. But we doubt whether one in ten, even among English gentlemen of highly cultivated minds, can tell who won the *battle of Buxar*, who perpetrated the massacre of Patna, whether Sujah Dowlah ruled in Oude or in Travancore, or whether *Holkar* was a Hindoo or a Mussulman. "

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pr...

Christopher wrote: "JA says very little about where they go, but certainly makes clear that it is because they are 'dead' to their own family:

... As a daughter, he hoped a penitent one, she should be protected by hi..."

Interesting thank you Christopher! I can imagine in such a society where communities were relatively small it would be easier to escape to another place then live daily under public scrutiny.

Christopher wrote: "Just getting to ch. 11 now. I looked up the infamous OG "every schoolboy knows" formulation:

"... Every schoolboy knows who imprisoned Montezuma, and who strangled Atahualpa. But we doubt whether ..."

Oh my gosh I have not heard of any of those things!