Victorians! discussion

Before we start off with this week’s segment, I thought the second part of the opening quote in chapter 13 was something us readers would have especially enjoyed
2d Gent. Nay, tell me how you class your wealth of books
The drifted relics of all time.
As well sort them at once by size and livery:
Vellum, tall copies, and the common calf
Will hardly cover more diversity
Than all your labels cunningly devised
To class your unread authors.


Back to the story now. So, while Dorothea Brooke is married and touring Rome, we begin this segment still in Middlemarch getting to know some of the characters we didn’t really ‘meet’ previously. Tertius Lydgate for one, who has lofty ideals of his own, to put into practice what he has learnt in Paris, and to get a forum—a new hospital to be able to do that. He has support for his dreams in Mr Bulstrode the banker, but also opposition from the more conventional quarters, the other practitioners in Middlemarch Mr Sprague and Mr Minchin, who are taking offence to the least offensive of Lydgate’s plans—his decision not to dispense medicine. Old ways have begun to clash with new ideas as they always do, but what does this mean for Lydgate’s plans?

And then we have his other dilemma—his friendship with Mr Farebrother, the vicar who is a pleasant man, also a scholar but with three ladies to support, he has no qualms about occasionally gambling a little. Lydgate is caught between his friendship and his moral judgments on the one side and also between his friendship and his ambitions on the other (here he is choosing a path he may not have taken for his own plans to come to fruition). What finally did lead to his decision when he finally cast the deciding vote with Bulstrode.

A third dilemma too is in preparation for Lydgate for Rosamund is quite clearly laying out plans for a future with him while he, though he might admire her, has no such plans in mind. What situation will this lead him into? This of course is yet to come.

Meanwhile speaking of Mr Bulstrode, what do we make of him and his refusal of sorts to ‘help’ his nephew Fred, when as Mr Vincy pretty much says to him, his morals which he attempts to apply in judging Fred may not really apply to his business? Or for that matter to the question of the Chaplain where his word or wishes might be compelling others to act against their own wishes?

Fred Vincy has his own woes to contend with—his love for Mary Garth who might return his affections but refuses to accept him for he is not one who will be approved by her father, and his own debts which will take down not only him but also Mr Garth who has stood guarantee for him. He may have got the letter from Mr Bulstrode and some ready money but will he get out of his troubles? And living on the strength of his expectations alone is bound to take its toll at some time or other. What when he realizes that he may not have anything at all?

Dorothea’s hopes meanwhile already seem to be being dispelled just around a month into her marriage as she finds herself in such different surroundings and also in a situation where her opinion of Mr Casaubon is also being challenged. She wants to learn from and be guided by HIS opinion but he doesn’t seem to have much of one, does he, as we see from that conversation about their sightseeing in Rome. Also, partly because she had no clear conception of what it was that she was looking for, she isn’t really sure what he complaints are either.

But she has some sympathy from Will Ladislaw, Casaubon’s young cousin, who feels more than just sympathy it seems. At Will’s friend Naumann’s studio, Mr Casaubon is asked to ‘model’ for Aquinas and asks for a sketch of Dorothea too (his original motive as we saw in the gallery earlier).

Money was a theme that seemed to stand out in this segment: Mr Farebrother’s woes and Fred Vincy’s, then Lydgate’s need for money to put his plans into action, and as a contrast of sorts to Fred, Will Ladislaw wanting to eschew financial support from Casaubon and be independent. So indeed is morality, and perhaps hypocrisy—Lydgate and Farebrother, and then Mr Bulstrode.

So what did we make of this segment?

I have read first two chapters, so will comment on those.
Lydgate - I like this idea of not dispensing medicine/potions/cures etc as a placatory device. Most people of the times believe in the Power of concoctions - without any evidence to connect do called "medicines" with actually identified diseases or proven treatments. So L's first improvement sounds very modern - today there is massive over prescription - so not a great deal of change in popular attitudes to medicine in the last 200+ years. Also the apothecaries - like pharmacies today were established businessman - so L's plans are naturally going to cause major disruptions. Both from sellers and consumers.
So Eliot is appraising the difficulties of Education en masse - how do we get the common man to understand some of the current 1830s sciences/knowledge in the medical field??
Taking a potion which may or may not treat the problem is surely quakery and an entire waste of money from the patients perspective. Minor illnesses often get better with bestrest - on their own. Serious diseases such as TB, diphtheria, small pox, measles etc often killed old and young. So it is a doctor's Moral responsibility to stop quack treatments. To offer only what is known to be effective And to admit the limits of medical knowledge, treatments. V difficult. How do you tell a seriously ill person - there is no known cure/treatment.
I like the 1830 division of Surgeons/medical doctors.
Very interesting. Plus Eliot talks about a basis for the universal tissues of the body. Cell Theory was only just established in 1838 - and this what she describes as Lydgate aiming to discover in his researches. This also provides an interesting parallel with Casaubon's "a key to all mythologies" - so in essence Lydgate and C are doing very "similar" work.
Her question - what does it take in terms of character, in level of education, determination, dedication, But also the wider question how does a community/society allow for these individuals to advance knowledge. What sort of society allows for men and yes women to be able to do this type of work.
V v interesting.!!!

Correction ... Cell Theory - 1839.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Before we start off with this week’s segment, I..."
Thank you, Lady Clementine,

Laura wrote: "I have read first two chapters, so will comment on those..."
Your comment is very interesting and I agree with you.
by the way, in France too, doctors give too much medicine.
I spent some time in Finland in winter, when my son was 2 years old and my daughter 6 months old. My son coughed a lot when he was a kid. But in Finland, doctors only accept patients if they have already had at least a 48-hour fever. Thus, they are sure of their diagnosis, sure also that a simple aspirin could not heal.

I also have read the first two chapters, Laura.

Chapter 1 :
About Lydgate’s "ordinary bearing there was a certain fling, a fearless expectation of success, a confidence in his own powers and integrity much fortified by contempt for petty obstacles or seductions of which he had had no experience. But this proud openness was made lovable by an expression of unaffected good-will."
In a word: he's young! This portrait reminds me of my son: confident because he has not yet failed, uncompromising because he lacks the maturity that allows understanding, but yet so loving!

Chapter 2, dialogue between Fred and Mary. Mary is absolutely right to refuse Fred because she is right not to want to take responsibility for his life for him. Everyone is responsible for their lives and choices, as I said in my blog post Wish me luck, I'm taking the leap! Mary understands that Fred is obviously not able to take care of himself, so how could he take care of a family?
Very smart and clear about herself, this little Mary!

Gabrielle wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Before we start off with this week’s segment, I..."
Thank you, Lady Clementine,

Laura wrote: "I have read first two chapters, so will comment on those..."
Your comment is v..."
Re treatments, in our part of the world, tests seem to be recommended at the drop of a hat--and I feel a number of people themselves are unsatisfied till they are prescribed medicines.

I liked chapter 3 (or XV) about Lydgate. The part about medicine is interesting.
And the inner journey of the young Lydgate until the day he discovers to which he will devote his life is very well received, especially the paragraph beginning with :
"We are not afraid of telling over and over again how a man comes to fall in love with a woman…"

We get a lot of insight to the life of Mr. Lydgate and his medical ambitions in this segment. Mr. Lydgate represents the youthful, ambitious professionals who wanted to strive for new innovations and reforms. He meets a strong opposition from the "established" practitioners who do not want the "accepted" to be changed. This is almost common in every society in the world. New ideas and changes are often viewed with scepticism.

Farebrother strikes me as another reformer of the ideal. It looks like that Eliot is introducing radical minds which in their own small way stands out from the accepted standards and conventions.

It is no surprise that Dorothea is unhappy. Poor girl entered in to this marriage with mistaken ideas about Casaubon. Now only she sees her delusion clearly.

I can see another illusion is in the process of formation. Rosamond seems to be determined to work towards a match between her and Lydgate. What seems to be driving her towards this is her idea that Lydgate is of a good birth and has connection to a higher society. Being unhappy of her birth and of being part of Middlemarch society, she aspires for a higher life through Lydgate.

One cannot compare Dorothea and Rosamond. But they are both delusional when it comes to making their choice of husbands, seeing them for what they are not.

Dodo’s trip to Italy reminds me that Eliot had a significant trip to Italy as well. Do any of you know any interesting details about her relationship to Italy?

Eliot herself was also in a relationship where she was conscious of being the older and whether she was attractive enough.

I read this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/entert...

Dodo’s relationship is another variation on being older/younger and on worrying about being on another intellectual level than your partner. (In comparison to Eliot’s life.)

It is as if Eliot is exploring and justifying an extramarital relationship. She herself also was involved in something - I am not sure what - but she is focused on every little step of the development of such a relationship.

Piyangie

I agree with your comments!
Eventhough I'm not yet in Italy, but it's a reread for me...

Charlotte

I can't read the article you mention if I don't suscribe the newspaper...

Chapter 1 (or XIII) :
About Lydgate’s "ordinary bearing there was a certain fling, a fearless expectation of success, a confidence in his own powers and integrity much fortified by contempt for petty obstacles or seductions of which he had had no experience. But this proud openness was made lovable by an expression of unaffected good-will."
In a word: he's young! This portrait reminds me of my son: confident because he has not yet failed, uncompromising because he lacks the maturity that allows understanding, but yet so loving!

Chapter 2 (or XIV), dialogue between Fred and Mary.
Mary is absolutely right to refuse Fred because she is right not to want to take responsibility for his life for him. Everyone is responsible for their lives and choices, as I said in Wish me luck, I'm taking the leap!
Mary understands that Fred is obviously not able to take care of himself, so how could he take care of a family?
Smart and clear about herself, this little Mary!

I liked chapter 3 (or XV) about Lydgate. The part about medicine is interesting.
And the inner journey of the young Lydgate until the day he discovers to which he will devote his life is very well received, especially the paragraph beginning with :
"We are not afraid of telling over and over again how a man comes to fall in love with a woman…"

Chapter 4 or XVI :
"Her father looked round at the company, delighting in their admiration. Her mother sat, like a Niobe before her troubles, with her youngest little girl on her lap, softly beating the child's hand up and down in time to the music. And Fred, notwithstanding his general scepticism about Rosy, listened to her music with perfect allegiance, wishing he could do the same thing on his flute. It was the pleasantest family party that Lydgate had seen since he came to Middlemarch. The Vincys had the readiness to enjoy, the rejection of all anxiety, and the belief in life as a merry lot, which made a house exceptional in most county towns at that time..."
In my own family life, I also enjoy this kind of peaceful moments. Like last night.
My children, my husband and I were having dinner. I had made little apple pies. I had placed two pieces of raw apples in each tartlet and covered them with dough. Well, once out of the oven, we all agreed that my little apple pies looked like little buttocks! What a laugh! What a great time we had in family! We laughed to tears!
I know, I know... it's far from being a shared moment listening to a wonderful and well educated pianist singing Mozart, but the pleasure was the same!

Charlotte - interesting comments about Eliot being in a relationship where she is the elder one and I think you say - she felt on a different level intellectual.
So she is working through the process of leaving a marriage/contemplating an affair.
I'm not v up on her personal life I just know she lived with Lewes for many years as his common-in-law wife because her earlier husband wouldn't grant her a divorce.
She

Eliot sees herself in Mary Garth - wiser.
In Rosamund young and ambitious?
In Dorothea - how exactly?
She is certainly examining all the reasons or misconceptions women use for joining themselves with a husband.

Nobody else is interested in the comparison between Lydgate and Casaubon - both scholars.
Surely Eliot is asking what type of man, what type of skill, determination, character, individual does it take to advance knowledge. I believe both fail - in different ways.
There is also this theme that a man and woman should be able to work together.
One supporting the other - the idea of complementary halves of a whole.
Eliot herself asking what is the nature of marriage.
Does an harmonious marriage advance society?

Laura wrote: "Charlotte - interesting comments about Eliot being in a relationship where she is the elder one
So she is working through the proc..."

I don’t think Eliot was thinking about leaving. But maybe she saw someone else having a hard time working through the process. Perhaps Lewes had difficulties and Eliot was conscious about being the second woman ... (?) But I don’t know so much about it.

The article is called “George Eliot’s brief marriage got off to a really, really bad start“ and it is possible to read if you haven’t made use of the free browsing on Washington Post’s website earlier.

Perhaps Eliot and Lewes also worked together on a literary project and that is where she had the scenes from, when she described Dodo trying to work with Casaubon... I don’t know :)

Chapter 4 or XVI :
"For Rosamond, though she would never do anything that was disagreeable to her, was industrious; and now more than ever she was active in sketching her landscapes and market-carts and portraits of friends, in practising her music, and in being from morning till night her own standard of a perfect lady, having always an audience in her own consciousness, with sometimes the not unwelcome addition of a more variable external audience in the numerous visitors of the house. She found time also to read the best novels, and even the second best, and she knew much poetry by heart"
How much harder life is for the young girl Rosemonde than for the young man Lydgate!
To hope for a future filled with love (given by Lydgate) and recognition (given by a husband's social rank), Rosemonde must constantly strive to play a role. Even if she had had the idea, and how would she have it when her education has made her a kind of showcase of perfection, she can't afford to wonder what would make her really happy: being a stay-at-home mom, an artist or an accountant! While she is learning and perfecting her pleasure skills precisely to please a potential husband. All her efforts are directed towards an external goal: finding a husband at her convenience, instead of being turned towards herself: finding who she really is and seeking happiness in herself.
While Lydgate can hope to achieve the same things: love through a wife and recognition through her research and work. But for Lydgate, his research and work are his choice and make him happy.
I quite agree with Mrs. Plymdale who thinks "that Rosamond had been educated to a ridiculous pitch…"

Chapter 5 or XVII :
Seriously, Eliot? You're terrible!
As we pity poor Dorothée for falling off the scale of her own illusions and are ready to forgive Casaubon for being nothing more than what he is : no man was more incapable of flashy make-believe than Mr. Casaubon: " no man was more incapable of flashy make-believe than Mr. Casaubon" You, Eliot, you add: "he was as genuine a character as any ruminant animal". And bam! He's pathetic again! You're very strong, Eliot, very strong!

Charlotte wrote: "Dodo’s trip to Italy reminds me that Eliot had a significant trip to Italy as well. ..."

I finally got to read the article you mentioned, Charlotte: “George Eliot’s brief marriage got off to a really, really bad start“ Washington Post.
I don't think I'd like to read Dinitia Smith's book "The Honeymoon,". Or maybe the article doesn't correctly reflect the book, I don't know. But there are some things I don't like about this article at all, such as:

«Most assume their marriage (Cross and Eliot) was never consummated, presumably because of the age difference. »
What? Who is this "Most" who assumes that a man could not sleep with a woman 20 years old and older, while this same "Most" is not surprised that a man could sleep with a woman 20 years younger!

«Smith handles this deftly, showing Eliot’s conflicted eagerness for and fear of sexual contact with the handsome young man — fear because of how he might respond to her aging body.»
I doubt very much that a woman like George Eliot would have married a man, then afterwards, would have been ashamed to show him her body. This behavior is too stupid to be attributed to Eliot!
«And Smith conjectures that Cross was not sexually attracted to women.»
I don't think Smith can conceive of a physical love between Cross and Eliot, because she may have trouble conceiving it herself. (I don’t think my English is understandable, here… sorry !)

«Although Smith hews closely to the details of Eliot’s life before Cross, in one respect at least she takes an imaginative leap. Many have speculated about Eliot’s sex life before Lewes, assuming she probably was not a virgin. Smith provides not one but three lovers for Eliot, which by itself is not incredulous. Smith’s portrayal of these encounters, however, leaves one in doubt of Eliot’s remarkable intelligence.»
It is the same trial that is done in France for 150 years against George Sand! And it upsets me, as you can see! Quote me a person, an article, who says that Victor Hugo was a fool because he had mistresses in plain sight of everyone and not even one after the other and while he was married! Quote me a person, an article, who says that great male authors were fools because they had mistresses who were not always the most intelligent or appropriate! Why should the loves of George Eliot or George Sand cast doubt on their intelligence and/or writing skills?

That said, Charlotte, I understand the connection you have made, and well made, between Eliot and the Casaubon couple on their honeymoon in Italy, it is appropriate. A writer always uses his experience, small pieces taken from each person he knows, to build his characters and explain their feelings.

Don't get me wrong. I would like to point out that, unlike Dorothée's uncle, if my daughter imagined marrying a man 20 years older than her, I would ask her to think about it 20 more years!

Laura wrote: "Eliot is certainly examining all the reasons or misconceptions women use for joining themselves with a husband.
..."

Certainly.

Laura wrote: "Nobody else is interested in the comparison between Lydgate and Casaubon - both scholars."

Interesting.

It seems to me that Casaubon likes to study for study, but that he has no idea of his own. That's why he still hasn't written his book, even though he's been taking notes for 20 years. Moreover, he knows deep down that he will never have the courage or intelligence to turn his notes into a book, hence the argument with Dorothy.

Lydgate is very different, I think. He also studies, but he has a broader and more personal vision of the goal he wants to achieve, of the discoveries he hopes to make, to advance medicine.

Piyangie wrote: "Farebrother strikes me as another reformer of the ideal. It looks like that Eliot is introducing radical minds which in their own small way stands out from the accepted standards and conventions."

True- I found the 'moral' conflicts between Farebrother and Lydgate interesting to observe.

Gabrielle wrote: "Laura wrote: "Nobody else is interested in the comparison between Lydgate and Casaubon - both scholars."

Interesting.

It seems to me that Casaubon likes to study for study, but that he has no ide..."

Casaubon dreams perhaps of producing a great work but perhaps because of his lack of ideas/opinions lacks teh confidence to actually do it. He talks of others' opinions or general opinions but never his own.

Gabrielle wrote:

I finally got to read the article you mentioned, Charlotte: “George Eliot’s brief marriag..."

Gabrielle, You are so right! I agree with your point of view.

Charlotte wrote: "Gabrielle, You are so right! I agree with your point of view."

Hello Charlotte, I'm glad you answer to my comment, I was afraid you'd be upset! Sometimes, I wonder if my English is clear enough.

Gabrielle wrote:
Hello Charlotte, I'm glad you answer to my comment, I was afraid you'd be upset! Sometimes, I wonder if my English ..."

Oh, in this case I was a little anxious about commenting your post, but every day went by and I didn’t have time. I should have sent it earlier after all.

Charlotte wrote: "Gabrielle I was a little anxious about commenting yo..."

Anxious? Why? :)

Gabrielle wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "Gabrielle I was a little anxious about commenting yo..."

Anxious? Why? :)"

I mean, I was eager to let you know that I agreed with you, because you are so right about it. But I didn’t have the time to comment.

Sometimes I read everybody’s posts and don’t post my self. I am following the discussion, but I don’t always have time to write. (Because I am busy catching up on reading :) .)