Victorians! discussion

Fred Vincy is in deeper trouble than we think, not only having borrowed more than he can afford to pay back but building castles in the air still, with his ideas on buying a horse and selling it for a profit. Expectedly it doesn’t end well, and once again he has to rely on the Garths to get him out of the hole he has dug himself into. Whatever else one can say about him, he did at least have the guts to go and confess to the Garths (not to Mr Vincy, though). Mary isn’t wrong about him is she, not only has he gotten himself into trouble but also deprived the Garths of their hard-earned money, and rather than learning something from this new trouble, he ends up ill and creating a little more trouble (of course, I do realise that typhoid is not something he could have brought on himself but still…) Where oh where is Fred going to end up if no sense is knocked into his head? And poor Mary, while she does have her head on her shoulders, she does seem to give into Fred eventually, so will she end up accepting him?

But of course, Fred’s illness has another function in our story (more than one, in fact) with Lydgate getting the opportunity to put his study of fevers into practice diagnosing his illness over Mr Wench. This has the effect of him making an enemy out of Wench but also involving himself more with Rosamond something he doesn’t want at the moment, but Rosamond is planning her future more or less as if a certainty. Between her expectations and Middlemarch gossip, there doesn’t seem much escape for him. But what if (or shall I say when) they do end up getting married? Is it another case of Dorothea—Casaubon in the making?

But Lydgate’s professional life is taking a positive turn with a summons from Sir James and also getting the place of the Vincy family physician.

Dorothea is back at Lowick and feels her situation even more despite some initial rise in hope. Casaubon too is unhappy, marriage not having given him what he thought it would. To add to it is his jealousy of Will Ladislaw who shows up so much better than him when the two are side by side.

All of these characters, Lydgate, Dorothea, Rosamond, Casaubon seem to live with their ideals in their mind, not really considering reality—they seem to persist in thinking or hoping perhaps that life will work out as they have dreamt it will, Dorothea achieving her objective of doing something worthwhile, Lydgate professional success and spending time with Rosamond without encouraging her hopes; Rosamond a romantic marriage but more than that one that will bring her social betterment; and Casaubon, an ideal wife who merely obeys but doesn’t perhaps question? Fred too in his own way lives in those dreams. The other person’s dreams or reality or expectations seems to concern them not at all and doesn’t even feature in their thoughts. But the world doesn’t work as we want it to, does it? And it is this inability to see and understand reality that will eventually bring tragedy for them all, in one way or another.

Meanwhile Casaubon too is taking ill, and thus further from his work, and Dorothea must keep Will Ladislaw away. But Mr Brooke has ended up offering him a job that will bring him to Middlemarch instead. How is this going to affect Mr Casaubon’s health? Not positively certainly.

More illness in this chapter with Mr Featherstone too being on the verge of death, his various relatives beginning to circle his home like vultures. Poor Mary has the unpleasant task of dealing with them all. And then suddenly comes Featherstone’s request, no, offer to Mary to burn one of the wills which he tells her to, but she refuses. What consequences is this going to have? For Fred, especially?

The only ones to have had some positive news in this segment are Will Ladislaw with his new job, and Celia with her engagement to Sir James.

Plenty happening in this segment. What did we think of it, with dreams, ideals, greed, relationships, and of course the question of women’s role in society once again at the centre.

I didn't expect such thoughtlessness from Fred. His conduct towards the Garth family cannot be pardoned. What was he thinking getting Mr. Garth to vouch for a bill of his. He knows well enough the financial position of the Garths than to involve him in such a way. The worst is that he didn't have any clear idea how to meet this debt. He was fancifully hoping old Mr. Featherstone would make a present which would help him without having any idea how much he will receive. And the horse selling idea of his is nonsensical. He is building too shallow castle in the air. He is miserable of what he has done of course, yet it fails to arouse in him any determination to change and be an independent man.

Mary is quite a sensible girl. She is one of the characters I really like. She cares deeply for Fred and wants to see a strong and capable man in him. Rather than dictating what he should do, Mary tries to steer Fred in a self reflective course so that he could figure what he should do with his life. Poor Mary! I don't think she is very successful in her actions. Fred seems to me to be too self-indulgent. However, no matter how fond Mary would be in Fred, I do not think she would accept him as her husband unless he become the man she wants him to be.

We see in this segment Mr. Lydgate finally getting him engaged to Rosamond. The narrator describes the actions as one of impulse. I'm inclined to agree. It was a moment's unreflective decision on the part of Mr. Lydgate. The question is whether this decision is prudent. Personally I feel that Rosamond and Lydgate are making the same grave mistake as Dorothea and Casaubon.

Dorothea now sees that she was clearly mistaken on her opinion of Casaubon. He is not the worldly scholar she thought him to be. In spite of all her disappointments, the poor girl tries to be useful to him and is quite devoted. Casaubon's failing in health makes matters worse for her. Although she willingly called all upon her, I couldn't help feeling sorry for her.

Dorothea is Eliot's idea of a victim. Her limited education and isolated upbringing coupled with her religious zest strongly undermined her understanding of the world and was quite ignorant of it. That and her uncle's indulgence made her make the greatest mistake in her life - her marriage to Casaubon.

Mr. Brook's decision to bring Will to Middlemarch is not a good idea. It might cause problems at Casaubon household. We saw how displeased Casaubon was with Will's request to visit their home. Jealousy could be the reason behind. Causabon is uneasy with Dorothea's friendship with Will. Can't blame the poor fellow. He feels inadequate besides the intelligent and vigorous youth.

Piyangie wrote: "I didn't expect such thoughtlessness from Fred. His conduct towards the Garth family cannot be pardoned ..."


Yes, Fred's behaviour in the first chapter of Book 3 is completely reckless... but not inexcusable. At least, if I were Fred's mother, or his "second mother" as Mistress Garth seems to be, I would be able to forgive him... after telling him that he has a head on his shoulder and a brain in this head and that is must use it!

This said, we have to go back to the time Fred lives in:
All things are permitted and forgiven to men,
They have the right to have fun, to go out, even if it's in a bar that's not suitable, well, male youth needs to let off steam!
And we have to go back into the family Fred lives in:
His father and mother never practiced or taught economics.
Fred has absolutely no idea how many money his father has at his disposal to support his family; he does not know the value of money, since his expensive College education was offered to him quite naturally, as a right, just because he is a son and not a daughter.

So, yes, a more thoughtful boy might not have made a debt and certainly not involved Mr. Garth, I agree.
But Fred is a good boy, loving. Can he be blamed for being a Care Bear in the Care Bears' world that society has built for him?

But I read only the first two chapters of book three yet...

Piyangie wrote: "The worst is that he didn't have any clear idea how to meet this debt. ..."

He's something like Dorothea and the others, he too is expects his ideas (whether the horse scheme or the expectations from Mr Featherstone) to simply work out just as he dreams them. Even though he has had to face it not working out or other problems arising.

But you're right, his behaviour towards the Garths is unpardonable.

Piyangie wrote: "Personally I feel that Rosamond and Lydgate are making the same grave mistake as Dorothea and Casaubon...."

I agree completely.

Gabrielle wrote: "His father and mother never practiced or taught economics.
Fred has absolutely no idea how many money his father has at his disposal to support his family; he does not know the value of money,..."

I agree that he hasn't been taught to be practical most likely but still, one would expect him to actually shake back into reality once things do start to go wrong but even that doesn't seem to knock any sense into him.

Chapter XXIX:
"Providence, in its kindness, had supplied him with the wife he needed. A wife, a modest young lady, with the purely appreciative, unambitious abilities of her sex, is sure to think her husband's mind powerful. Whether Providence had taken equal care of Miss Brooke in presenting her with Mr. Casaubon was an idea which could hardly occur to him..."
George Eliot's feminism...? It's certainly lucidity!

Mary Garth is a very kind, clever and lucid person. So far, she's my favourite!

Gabrielle wrote: "Mary Garth is a very kind, clever and lucid person. So far, she's my favourite!"

Somewhat a version of GE herself.

Gabrielle wrote: "Mary Garth is a very kind, clever and lucid person. So far, she's my favourite!"

Mine too, Gabrielle. And I quite agree with Lady C :) that she is somewhat a version of Eliot.

Lady Clementina,
Piyangie
I suppose you're right: you can't write so intelligently and with so much heart if you don't have it yourself.