Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

According to The Wrap, HBO is looking at making a series of Asimov's classic Foundation series (trilogy, I presume.).

I guess Sony let go of the rights (they've been sitting on them for awhile.)

Hmmm, HBO. Where will they add the nudity? (I know -- in the future, clothes are passé. :)

Wasn't Harry Seldon a socialator? Like from Battlestar Galactica?

I don't think Hari Seldon was a space prostitute.

Oh. Well someone better tell the executives at HBO.

oh please, He'll just go around cutting people's heads off.

In seriousness, I think it will be interesting to see an HBO adaptation. The foundation series is amazingly cerebral. The thing that makes it fun to read are the ideas about society represented in them. I don't think that will make for very exciting TV.

Columnist wonders, Isaac Asimov’s Foundation novels: are they really filmable?

Interestingly, she seems to assume this deal includes all the later prequel and re-con novels (she mentions the number 14), which would take it back all the way to Pebble in the Sky or maybe evenThe Caves of Steel, depending on how much you believe the ret-con.

That, in my opinion, would be a really bad idea.

I can't see the Foundation Trilogy as a film. It is, as Daran said, too cerebral. A brilliant trilogy, but not as a film.

Apart from Foundation, what would make a good film, in the SF genre I wonder? One that has never been done. I heard they had plans for 'Lord of Light' by Zelazny but it never happened.

They can make it a show if they just take the premise of it but make it more character driven... Probably could have 4 seasons per book... Might be hard to get tv watchers to follow it from book to book though.

But the characters are paper thin. They are by and large stand-ins for broad historical trends. It's the decline and Fall of the Roman Empire with space ships.

If they did it in a mock documentary style it might be interesting. A found footage sort of thing like they did with the last episode of Babylon 5, where someone is reviewing historical records, it might be good.

The foundation series is what first got me interested in sci fi as such I am and will always remain extremely biased in favor of it.
But even i have to wonder how they will make a long running TV show on it. Still HBO has made some great TV shows in the past and with GOT have proved that they can handle stories based in fantasy worlds. Lets see how they do with sci fi.

They would have to flesh out Hari Seldon and a few others (The Mule?) at lot to give more human context to the action. It will be interesting to see if they can resist the temptation to turn it into a soap opera.

I think this is kind of exciting, but I'm worried they'll make the show too boring and it'll only go 2 seasons at most.

And I'm sorry, but was there a lot of sex and violence in the Foundation books? I only read the first.

sex in a Asimov story? surely you jest.....

this should not be on HBO...it's more suited for the History Channel as a fake documentary series...

Spooky1947 wrote: "this should not be on HBO...it's more suited for the History Channel as a fake documentary series..."

I agree with this sentiment. I remember the History of Dragons show they did a few years back, and that was fun.

Wow... this is something worth keeping an eye on, Asimov's Foundation trilogy was my first step into reading Sci-Fi when I was about 15, so it's got my life-long admiration.

However when I went back to re-read it a few years ago it did strike me as a remarkably " thin" story, like a lot of early Sci-Fi, with not much in the way of fully developed characters.

In the absence of this, HBO will likely have to add a lot to the material to keep a full series going. Even GOT with it's thousands of pages got mashed up by HBO in the later series to fit the pace of the small screen...

Richard wrote: "Wow... this is something worth keeping an eye on, Asimov's Foundation trilogy was my first step into reading Sci-Fi when I was about 15, so it's got my life-long admiration.

However when I went ba..."

That is a common present day criticism of Golden Age SF, but that is mainly because at that time the idea (in capital letters) behind the story was the focus and not the people who existed to animate and illustrate the effects of the idea. The wonder was in the concept, not the feelings of the characters.

V.W. wrote: "That is a common present day criticism of Golden Age SF, but that is mainly because at that time the idea (in capital letters) behind the story was the focus and not the people who existed to animate and illustrate the effects of the idea...."

It's a criticism, yes; and it's one I totally reject. The effete literati keep trying to convince us that sci-fi that deals primarily with Ideas isn't proper literature unless populated by angst ridden, deeply flawed characters. Baloney!

There is still plenty of sci-fi for knuckle-draggers like me, with characters like Honor Harrington or Blackjack Geary, or this year's popular "The Martian" (whose protagonist Ben described as a "rehash of a stock 1950s (and before) 'competent man'". To which I agree, but he meant that in a negative way. :)

Which is not to say I dislike character-driven SF, I just still like the old-school Idea kind of SF, too.

TV series need interesting characters at the centre - Hari Seldon could be the core character to hold it together. The bigger problem is the timescale - the books take place over many years. I'm not sure it would be dynamic enough for TV. I'd like to be proved wrong - I like Asimov's original concept of psychohistory, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to portray it.

Peter wrote: "TV series need interesting characters at the centre - Hari Seldon could be the core character to hold it together. The bigger problem is the timescale - the books take place over many years. I'm not sure it would be dynamic enough for TV...."

Yeah, I think that will be the scriptwriter's biggest problem. TV (and movie franchises) tend to be driven by familiar and popular characters, and the idea of ditching an entire cast to jump generations into the future is a tough sell (how will you make the audience follow?)

I've been trying to think of movie/TV franchises that have successfully jumped generations. Star Trek is probably the best example, though Next Generation is more a reboot. Star Wars, if you include the animated series. Alien, though they used Ripley for a common thread via cryosleep & cloning. I suppose Seldon is their best bet for a continuing character (maybe upgrade his holographic messages to an AI?) Or perhaps add some futuristic medicine to make everyone practically immortal?

I think the best model would be something like the Russian generational novels, like War and Peace. The thing is, even those have linking characters. The first Foundation book is little more than a series of short stories, a lot like I, Robot. They are connected by the plot and not the stories. Making it very hard to turn into something compelling for television.

I've wanted a Caves of Steel movie for years - it's a great police procedural as well as excellent science fiction. They'd never cast anyone who looked anything like my image of Lije Baley, but...

Caves of Steel could be really good - it ought to work well. It'd need updating (it has to be twenty years since I last read it, but I remember it feeling dated even then), but a competent screen-writer should be able to to do it.

Peter wrote: "Caves of Steel could be really good - it ought to work well. It'd need updating (it has to be twenty years since I last read it, but I remember it feeling dated even then), but a competent screen-w..."

As a thought experiment, how would a "Caves of Steel" adaptation differ from last year's TV show "Almost Human" (now canceled.) Other than the details of the specific crime the human/robot detective duo was investigating?

It's been a long time since I last read the series, but taking "Caves of Steel" (COS) itself, I see the following differences with Almost Human (AH)

1. As a background, in COS we have two separate societies who have taken a different approach to the use of robots and their place in society, but in AH, there is only one society which in general seems accepting of robots so there is no clash of civilisations.

2. In COS, the MC robot is basically an unknown to the human MC. The robot's human-like form is a surprise as is its approach towards humans plus it has what amounts to diplomatic status and is untouchable. In addition, it is not trying to be human or to understand its own nature. It has a purpose and it is determined to carry it out. In AH the robot is still property and is even viewed as defective, and much of the story is about the robot's own exploration of itself, while constantly being under the threat of being de-activated by its owners.

3. COS is also an exploration of the "Three Laws" and how they would operate under extraordinary circumstances and cultures. The robots in AH seem to be under a much more fuzzy set of restrictions and are capable of harming humans, which in effect makes them radically different.

G33z3r wrote: "Peter wrote: "Caves of Steel could be really good - it ought to work well. It'd need updating (it has to be twenty years since I last read it, but I remember it feeling dated even then), but a comp..."

Agree with G33z3r - think "Almost Human" was an adaptation of "Caves of Steel". Also think Will Smith's "I, Robot" was a blending of that novel by Asimov and his "Caves of Steel".

Except that I don't think Caves of Steel would work if you "updated" it. It should feel like the world has cycled back to the fifties. That should be the look. The massive domed cities, and everyone in grey suits and hats. Almost a period feel.

Almost a "1984" vibe because everything was communal - commissaries, bathrooms. Would have to be very different form "Logan's Run" or the "Chung Kuo" series by David Wingrove.

Except it's not a communist regime at all - it's almost more feudal.

Might not have been communistic in nature, but there was rationing or allotments for food and politicians didn't have to eat with the general population.

If anything, think "Caves of Steel" and the other two novels in this trilogy represent humans moving into different extremes - xenophobia and agoraphobia.

If you were writing a screenplay for Foundation, would you add some female characters as part of your update to the 21st century view of the future? (Operating from memory, there's no female character of note in the original trilogy until Second Foundation, the 3rd book.)

G33z3r wrote: "If you were writing a screenplay for Foundation, would you add some female characters as part of your update to the 21st century view of the future? (Operating from memory, there's no female charac..."

No. There was no particular need for a specifically female character in the story. I particularly wouldn't want a "romance" thrown in just for the heck of it.

V.W. wrote: "There was no particular need for a specifically female character in the story."


Sorry, but I'd disagree. When Asimov wrote Foundation, the lack of women might not have jarred, but in the twenty-first century it would feel illogical and simply wrong. Psycho-history must, to work, model the actions of people, not just men. The only way to retain the unthinking '50s sexism would be to set the TV show in a future-world based on the '50s. I suppose it could be made to work, but I think it would feel forced and false. Why do it?

On the other hand, I'd agree that putting in a romance just for the sake of it would not be right, either.

Peter wrote: "V.W. wrote: "There was no particular need for a specifically female character in the story."


Sorry, but I'd disagree. When Asimov wrote Foundation, the lack of women might not have jarred, but in..."

It might jar you but I'm happy with the story as it is. Now if the discussion is about making the most commercially successful version of the story or most socially compatible story then I agree you might bring in women, a different racial mix, religious mix, whatever.

But then what is to say that by the time of the events of the story, the apparent social function of women must be like it is today? Why is today's society the perfect template by which future societies must unwaveringly follow?

Well, it seems the long-rumored but never-made Foundation video has now moved to... Apple?

Variety: Apple to Develop Series Based on Isaac Asimov’s ‘Foundation’ Book Trilogy

Deadline: Apple Lands Isaac Asimov ‘Foundation’ TV Series From David Goyer & Josh Friedman

In other news, Hari Seldon today predicted the collapse of streaming video from too many different providers.

G33z3r wrote: "In other news, Hari Seldon today predicted the collapse of streaming video from too many different providers. "

I just stick to basic cable. I still got to watch Star Trek Discovery without signing up for CBS (?) streaming, and The Handmaid's Tale without Hulu, though I only got the first couple of seasons of Game of Thrones without HBO (when I changed cable companies I had free access to their streaming and caught up on a couple more seasons by chance). If they want me to watch something, they've got to make it accessible to me otherwise I've got plenty of other stuff to watch, in fact so much so I've had to stop watching some. I refuse to sign up to 50 providers just so I can watch one show on each!

Anyway, what matters to me is reading the books those shows are based on, getting to watch the shows is just a bonus (and often a disappointment)

G33z3r wrote: "Well, it seems the long-rumored but never-made Foundation video has now moved to... Apple?

Variety: Apple to Develop Series Based on Isaac Asimov’s ‘Foundation’ Book Trilogy

Deadline: Apple Land..."
I suppose the series will be interesting to watch although it may conflict with my images from the books. I also think that Asimov should have left the trilogy alone, written during the golden age of SF, and not written the later books where he tried to bring in new science and technology, such as "black holes", and touchpad consoles in the space ships.

Apple has given the series a green light for production...

‘Foundation’: Apple Gives Series Order To Adaptation Of Isaac Asimov’s Sci-Fi Classic

Also, I like this headline's description of the series...

Apple Orders Isaac Asimov TV Series About a Secretive, Visionary Tech Organization


Deadline cites some of the series' history as video: "The trilogy had been tried numerous times as a feature film at Fox, Warner Bros. and then at Sony. Many top sci-fi writers have done scripts and found it daunting to constrict the sprawling saga to a feature film format. Most recently, HBO tried developing a series several years ago."

So far, "There’s still no clarity on Apple’s timing for the launch of its entertainment video effort nor has the company shared information about how the shows will be distributed," according to Variety, meaning no one knows what Apple is going to do with the show once they've made it.

Video streaming services are all the rage these days; everyone wants to have one.

Brilliant, thanks for letting me know!

Apple has released a teaser for its Foundation series. It's available on YouTube in addition to on AppleTV itself.

The premier isn't until 2021.
I note that this topic is now close to 6 years old.... but it looks like it's actually happening this time.

Of course, just in time for me not to have free Apple TV anymore! That's life though. (LOL)

The trailer looks good. 😊

It was divine!

Which is going to turn up sooner - Apple's Foundation adaptation or Amazon's LotR adaptation? I think they've both been in the works for about the same length of time

Tony wrote: "Which is going to turn up sooner - Apple's Foundation adaptation or Amazon's LotR adaptation? I think they've both been in the works for about the same length of time"

I saw a note in the movie news last week that there was a casting call for extras for the LotR in New Zealand. So I assume Apple's Foundation has the edge, since it's actually done some filming :)

G33z3r wrote: "I saw a note in the movie news last week that there was a casting call for extras for the LotR in New Zealand. So I assume Apple's Foundation has the edge, since it's actually done some filming :)"

Possibly, but there have also been casting calls for "funky" looking people for LotR. Looks like it may be a race to the wire :)