Victorians! discussion

Another segment with plenty happening. As we thought, Mary’s decision to not act on old Mr Featherstone’s wishes and refusal to destroy the will did have an impact on Fred, and now it seems that he (and all of the other hopefuls) are to have nothing while a completely new (and unsavoury) character, Joshua Rigg is to have it all. But why did Mr Featherstone make such a will? Was it simply to spite his relations (which is why he was trying to have it destroyed) or was there something to it? Joshua Rigg seems bad enough on his own but his stepfather Raffles seems quite as bad, if not worse, trying already to get his hands on some at least of his stepson’s new-found fortune. Mary might blame herself a little for depriving Fred of his fortune but she did as she and her family agrees act as she should have for had she acted on Mr Featherstone’s wishes, fingers would certainly have been pointed at her. But don’t you think this will be good for Fred ultimately? After he is shaken back into reality and at least setting off to finish his education, and who knows, if Caleb Garth’s proposal is accepted, he might end up joining him in business and actually making something of himself.

The Garths at least have had some much deserved good news with Sir James handing agency of his property to Caleb, and Mr Brooke too coming to realise the folly of his ways and following suit. Now at least their losses will be made good before long, and poor Mary too is saved from a situation which she didn’t much care for.

Meanwhile Rosamund is preparing for her wedding, dreaming of Lydgate’s relations and her own social advancement, and not thinking of things like money—in a delusion that Lydgate’s limited means are not as limited as are being made out to her. Lydgate himself hasn’t begun to consider these things, so there is certainly going to be trouble ahead on both those counts with both husband and wife to be continuing to expect the partner and life of their dreams/imaginations to simply come to life.

Much like Dorothea and Mr Casaubon who have both found themselves disillusioned and unhappy. Dorothea realises (even if she won’t entirely admit) that Mr Casaubon is not quite the kind of brilliant scholar she had thought he was while Casaubon finds that Dorothea actually has a voice and opinions of her own (and a mind too) which means she can see him for what he is rather than simply be an obedient ‘servant’ or ‘helpmate’ of sorts who simply follows but never questions or ventures her own thoughts. Not only that, Will’s presence is worsening the situation for Casaubon, whatever else he is or isn’t, is most certainly jealous of Will’s youth and perhaps also cleverness (vis-à-vis his own age, illness, and inability perhaps to produce his great work), and wants him as far away from Middlemarch (and Dorothea) as possible. But Will has a mind of his own too, and also a heart which wants to stay by and look after Dorothea, and so he chooses to do just that. Casaubon seems to be anticipating the worst that Will will somehow persuade Dorothea to marry him and get his hands on his fortune. He will certainly try to prevent this happening and so, more unpleasantness seems to lie ahead for them.

This segment was also one so far where politics stood out the most, and we got some taste of the unrest that preceded the reform bill/act. Mr Brooke with his good nature and lack of confidence in any modern improvements for his land has left his tenants in bad shape, and having taken the management in his own hands has lost both money and good name. But now his tenants are beginning to get a rebellious streak like Mr Dagley who not only refused to honour Mr Brooke’s wishes with regard to the poaching incident but also well-nigh challenged and threatened him. Mr Brooke meanwhile has also taken over a local newspaper, the Pioneer and appointed Will its editor, contributing to it too. But is this really a prelude to him contesting himself, or does he simply want his opinions heard loud and clear? The Cadwallers and Sir James seem quite helpless in the situation, turning to Dorothea for some help.

So while Fred Vincy has a chance of becoming more sensible, Rosamond and Lydgate are soon to find their expectations shattered (or at best far from what they were imagining) while Dorothea may find more unpleasantness ahead for her. What of Mr Brooke and his political ambitions (if at all there are any)—is there disappointment ahead there too? And Joshua Rigg—how is his arrival going to impact things?

What did we think of this week’s instalment?

Week 4, Book 4, LadyC, is it? :)

I'm not finished with this book 4, but I already can say: the chapter about Peter Featherstone's burial is a masterpiece in itself! George Eliot, I kiss your feet!

"Mr. Casaubon, indeed, had not thoroughly represented those mixed reasons to himself; irritated feeling with him, as with all of us, seeking rather for justification than for self-knowledge."
And there are so many quotes such as this one, George Eliot is so insightful!

When Fred took on a debt and found the most improbable and screwed-up way to pay it off, I said and maintain that he was forgivable, given his century, his sex and his education.
I would add that at that time, if there was anyone who was unforgivable, it was (and still is, on this subject) Caleb Garth. Because he has countersigned the debt when he has already had the experience of not succeeding financially, when he and his family are not yet assured about their future, when he is a certain age, and when he knows Fred's carefree nature.
But now that he has not been absolved of his mistake by Mary, even though she really had the compassion of a mother; that he did not have Featherstone's inheritance, which makes him think:
"Twenty-four hours ago Fred had thought that instead of needing to know what he should do, he should by this time know that he needed to do nothing: that he should hunt in pink, have a first-rate hunter, ride to cover on a fine hack, and be generally respected for doing so; moreover, that he should be able at once to pay Mr. Garth, and that Mary could no longer have any reason for not marrying him. And all this was to have come without study or other inconvenience, purely by the favor of providence in the shape of an old gentleman's caprice..."
Finally, there, Eliot shows us Fred's non-combative nature, his lack of labour power and his arrogance.
But in the end, it's not deliberate and unforgivable wickedness, it's just defaults. And, like Mary Garth did, we don't have to make them our own, but we can have pity on the person who is afflicted by them.
But as I said, I'm not finished with this book, so maybe I'll change my mind about Fred!

Gabrielle wrote: "Week 4, Book 4, LadyC, is it? :)"

Apologies-it's corrected now.

Gabrielle wrote: "When Fred took on a debt and found the most improbable and screwed-up way to pay it off, I said and maintain that he was forgivable, given his century, his sex and his education.
I would add that a..."

Could we may be compare Fred and Caleb--both seem good-hearted with the best of intentions, but not enough practical sense.

Lady Clementina

Yes, that's right!
Caleb Garth and Fred Vincy are good men, but light and too carefree. Even if Caleb has more experience and already shown that he is capable.
But if we can recognize both of them for having a good intuition, it is to choose the right wife for them: Mrs Garth is a mistress woman, a moral and financial pillar for her family (husband and children), and we can see that Mary Garth is just like her mother: good and solid at the same time, which would be ideal for Fred Vincy.
But do Caleb and Fred deserve such women?
What a pity that it has always been decided that men should be the heads of families! For the Garth family as well as for Fred's future family, it would be best if the roles were reversed!

Gabrielle wrote: "Lady Clementina

Yes, that's right!
Caleb Garth and Fred Vincy are good men, but light and too carefree. Even if Caleb has more experience and already shown that he is capable.
But if we can recogn..."
Perhaps better than having good sense but no heart. They wouldn't be undeserving if they could be shaken into sense but I don't know if that's possible with Fred. Let's see. I have read the book before but too long ago to remember how things pan out for him.

My presentiment is coming true regarding Mr. Casaubon. I always thought he is not what he seems to be and he is proving it right. He has become vindictive, nurtured by ill found suspicions and jealousy. And I can see him plotting against Dorothea's happiness and considering means to make her bound to him even after his possible death.

Causabon's awareness of his own weaknesses makes him envy and resent Will's youth and his clever mind.
Will clearly loves her, and as Lady C has aptly pointed out, stays in Middlemarch solely because of his desire to watch over her.
Dorothea's mind, on the other hand, is keenly awakened by Will's intellect and unconsciously though it is, she is drawn to him.
Casaubon's enmity will throw difficulties and unpleasantness in Dorothea and Will's way. And they will test their characters.

Mr. Featherstone's Will was a pure puzzle. Who is this Joshua Rigg? I'm still in the darkness. Anyhow "poor" Fred suffers yet another blow. His inheritance is "robbed" and now he will have to find his way in life. He has finally resolved to go back and take his examinations, which I view as a positive resolve.

Caleb Garth's opportune employment does much good to the Garth family. This saves Mary from an unsavory employment. I really hope that Mr. Garth will be more prudent with money matters in the future.

I quite agree with Lady C on Lydgate and Rosamond. They are in illusion of one another. How they will take to each other when they begin to see the true picture of each other will be quite interesting to see. I was rather shocked with Lydgate's extravagance though. For a man of the world, his imprudence in monetary matters is quite shocking! Does he secretly think that Mr. Vincy will meet up with his expenses by providing Rosamond with a dowry?

I found this segment very interesting overall, with the characters and story slowly taking its proper shape. :)

Lady Clementina wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Perhaps better than having good sense but no heart..."

It seems better, indeed, at first sight. But I have had two such difficult experiences with kind and loving people who ruined me morally and financially in my youth, that I sometimes wonder if mean persons might not be better:
On the one hand, as they are more easily identifiable, they are easier to avoid,
On the other hand, even if they put us in critical situations or bring us into trouble with them, it is easier to detach ourselves from them afterwards thinking either that we have been stupid and that this will be a lesson to us, or that we are not always immune from wickedness.
While it is impossible to refuse something foolish to a kind person who loves you, and even more difficult not to forgive him. That's what Mrs. Garth is doing with her husband: she's paying off the debt he signed, and we know what it costs her.
Love and kindness are two exercises so difficult and delicate to handle!

Piyangie wrote: "My presentiment is coming true regarding Mr. Casaubon..."

I'm not finished with Book 4 yet, but yes, Casaubon is getting more and more obnoxious and stupid.

Gabrielle wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "My presentiment is coming true regarding Mr. Casaubon..."

I'm not finished with Book 4 yet, but yes, Casaubon is getting more and more obnoxious and stupid."

He is...but I don't think he is getting much different from what he was and I don't think he pretended to be anything other than what he was. He believed he would be happy in marriage as did Dorothea but it turned out totally different from what he expected.

Lady Clementina
Piyangie

Yes, you're right, Casaubon has always been stupid and pretentious. Marriage only revealed this to him. That, and what he wanted to hide from himself and what he could hide from others: that he is hollow, empty. That's the hardest thing for him to deal with. And that, unfortunately for Dorothy, is what makes him mean to her.
The worst scene is the last chapter of Book 4, when she joins him in the park, takes his arm and that he ignores her. As if she didn't exist or was harmful. It's poignant and really horrible!
It made my heart ache!

Piyangie wrote: "Anyhow "poor" Fred suffers yet another blow. His inheritance is "robbed" and now he will have to find ..."

That Fred's eventual inheritance has vanished is, in my opinion, the best that could have happened to him. If he had had a lot of money without doing anything, he would have had the future that Rosamond had seen for him: that of a big lazy idle fat man! Now, indeed, he has a chance to become an honest and hardworking person.

Piyangie wrote: "I quite agree with Lady C on Lydgate and Rosamond. They are in illusion of one another. How they will take to each other when they begin to see the true picture of each other will be quite interest..."

The marriage of Rosemonde and Lydgate is made, on the part of the engaged, as blindly as the marriage of Dorothy and Casaubon, right?
The plot thickens: how will this new marriage turn out? Who's Rigg? Ta-dam! Whoever reads will see!

Chapter XXXVII:
"...the crying needs of the country might well counteract a reluctance to public action on the part of men whose minds had from long experience acquired breadth as well as concentration, decision of judgment as well as tolerance, dispassionateness as well as energy—in fact, all those qualities which in the melancholy experience of mankind have been the least disposed to share lodgings."

It was so true and... it's always so true! Hatts off, smart Eliot!

Chapter XLII:
"There was no denying that Dorothea was as virtuous and lovely a young lady as he could have obtained for a wife; but a young lady turned out to be something more troublesome than he had conceived...
Yes, Casaubon! Maybe because women are not "something", but thinking and feeling human beings!

Eliot seems to want us to pity Casaubon, often referring to as " poor Casaubon" and emphasize on the fact that he too was a victim of a delusion. His idea of a married life and a submissive wife was not met by his marriage with Dorothea. I quite comprehend Casaubon's position. But at the same time didn't he know of his weaknesses and couldn't he have understood Dorothea's regard for him as someone superior? He must have had some notion why a girl so young and pretty would consent to marry him. His lack of understanding and his petty nature makes him an undesirable character to me. Perhaps, I'm prejudiced against Casaubon. 😊 But truly, I can't help disliking the man!

Gabrielle wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Anyhow "poor" Fred suffers yet another blow. His inheritance is "robbed" and now he will have to find ..."

That Fred's eventual inheritance has vanished is, in my opinion, the bes..."

I agree-he needed that to shake him into reality. Now he just might make something of himself and become worthy of Mary Garth.

Piyangie wrote: "Eliot seems to want us to pity Casaubon, often referring to as " poor Casaubon" and emphasize on the fact that he too was a victim of a delusion. His idea of a married life and a submissive wife wa..."

True- but in that sense Dorothea is equally at 'fault' --I mean she too has certain expectations from life which she can't quite put into real-life terms, plus a picture of Casaubon and how he should be in her mind without seeing him for who he is. I mean she too to that extent is equally responsible for her suffering.

Piyangie wrote: "Eliot seems to want us to pity Casaubon, often referring to as " poor Casaubon" a..."

I agree with everything you say about Casaubon!
But I think that when Eliot writes "poor" Casaubon, it is perhaps more a bit of mockery or irony, than pity for his fate. He's over fifty years old and, as you say, he should "have had some notion why a girl so young and pretty would consent to marry him."
While when Eliot writes "poor" Dorothy, I suppose she really pities her, because, indeed, she is young, without experience or real education.

Lady Clementina wrote: "Dorothea is equally at 'fault' ...she too to that extent is equally responsible for her suffering..."

I don't agree, Lady C, as I explain it in my previous comment.
I'm totally pro Dorothée and cons Casaubon! :)

Two thoughts on chapter XXXVI:

As a French woman, I liked that little sentence:
"But it had never occurred to him that he should live in any other than what he would have called an ordinary way, with green glasses for hock, and excellent waiting at table. In warming himself at French social theories he had brought away no smell of scorching. …"

And when Rosamond wants to convince her father to let her marry Lydgate, and Vincy is afraid that Lydgate will be poor, I laughed a lot when I read that line from Vincy:
"I hope he knows I shan't give anything—with this disappointment about Fred, and Parliament going to be dissolved, and machine-breaking everywhere, and an election coming on—"
"Dear papa! what can that have to do with my marriage?"
So I read this at the table to my children and my husband and children laughed too. "Well, what?" my husband asked.
"But Dad," the children said. "That's exactly the kind of answer you make about any subject!"
It made us all laugh, the four of us! :D

Lady Clementina wrote: "Piyangie wrote: "Eliot seems to want us to pity Casaubon, often referring to as " poor Casaubon" and emphasize on the fact that he too was a victim of a delusion. His idea of a married life and a s..."

True, Mallika. Dorothea cannot be absolved either. She created her own hell hole through her silly notions and utter ignorance. Now she must face the bitter consequences. But of the two, I blame Casaubon more. Having the advantage of more life experience than Dorothea, he should have known better.

It is funny - Dorothea has been there for Casaubon all the time. He can just man up and show her some more affection and she will be even more devoted to him. But he blows his chance.

And all the while Casaubon is cold, Will is passionately in love with Dorothea. But it looks like she has no idea. She just treats Will business-like and does not think of him in any romantic way. Isn’t it odd?

Lady Clementina wrote: "Another segment with plenty happening. e..."

Thanks, Lady Clementia, for keeping us on track with the story. There is so much happening and when I read it, some of it does not look important, so I am glad to see how you view it.

Charlotte wrote: "It is funny - Dorothea has been there for Casaubon all the time. He can just man up and show her some more affection and she will be even more devoted to him. But he blows his chance.

And all the..."

I know I shouldn't think that, but.... well, too bad, I'm saying it! I hope Casaubon dies soon!

Such a pitty. He is wasting her youth away. She needs to get on with her life. 😊

Lady Clementina wrote: "... a completely new (and unsavoury) character, Joshua Rigg is to have it all. But why did Mr Featherstone make such a will? Was it simply to spite his relations (which is why he was trying to have it destroyed) or was there something to it? Joshua Rigg seems bad enough on his own but his stepfather Raffles seems quite as bad, if not worse, trying already to get his hands on some at least of his stepson’s new-found fortune...."

Did I miss something about Riggs? I didn't think he was right or wrong, personally. He inherits, we don't know why, but why would he care about the Middlemarchians he doesn't seem to know? (and anyway, we saw, during this fabulous chapter of the funeral, that none of them, except perhaps Mary Garth, deserved to receive the old man's inheritance.)
Why would Riggs refuse an inheritance after the horrible childhood his father-in-law made him endure? It also seems to me that I would not have given a penny or a drink to such a stepfather.
Certainly, if I remember correctly, Riggs blames his mother for marrying this man and letting him abuse them. So we can ask ourselves: did she have a choice if she was alone with a child? But one can also imagine that she could have left this violent, alcoholic man, who finally drank her money instead of giving some to her.
I wonder if this is not the point of the book: free will. Dorothée, Casaubon, Lydgate, Caleb, Rosamond: all make choices, all of them, whether old, young, experienced, ignorant, have the opportunity to choose and/or resume a good path for themselves.
Should we feel sorry for them: "poor Casaubon"? Blame them? Attack their inexperience or carelessness? To what extent are they, are we responsible for our actions?

Charlotte wrote: "Such a pitty. He is wasting her youth away. She needs to get on with her life. 😊"

There is a unanimity: we can neither pity nor love Casaubon, it seems to me!

Gabrielle wrote: "I know I shouldn't think that, but.... well, too bad, I'm saying it! I hope Casaubon dies soon! ..."

😄. Not before putting some yoke on Dorothea. Given how his mind works at present, I will not be surprised.

Piyangie wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "I know I shouldn't think that, but.... well, too bad, I'm saying it! I hope Casaubon dies soon! ..."

😄. Not before putting some yoke on Dorothea. Given how his mind works at pres..."

Oh, nooo! She'll have deserved her freedom after that! :)

Charlotte wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "Another segment with plenty happening. e..."

Thanks, Lady Clementia, for keeping us on track with the story. There is so much happening and when I read it, some of it does ..."
Glad it helps :)

Gabrielle wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "... a completely new (and unsavoury) character, Joshua Rigg is to have it all. But why did Mr Featherstone make such a will? Was it simply to spite his relations (which is w..."

Did I miss something about Riggs? I didn't think he was right or wrong, personally...
No he hasn't done anything as of now but he does seem like he will bring trouble at least with his stepfather on the scene.