Middle East/North African Lit discussion

The Epic of Gilgamesh, also known as the Izdubar Epic, recounts the adventures of the historical king Gilgamesh who ruled the ancient Mesopotamian city of Uruk (modern day Iraq) around 2750 BCE. Written in cuneiform on baked clay tablets, its first fragments were discovered in the ruins of Nineveh (modern day Mosul) in 1853. It wasn’t deciphered or translated until many years later. Although written over 3,500 years ago, the poem still speaks to us about love, grief over the death of a beloved, despair, fear of death, pride, and actions that lead to unintended consequences.

For those of you who want to hear it in the original, click on the link from the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London. The words sound delicious.

https://www.soas.ac.uk/baplar/recordi...

I taught The Epic of Gilgamesh for many years in an undergraduate Early World Literature class. I loved teaching it. My students were particularly fascinated by the flood story since it is almost identical to the flood story in Genesis—even though it preceded the Noah story by over 3,000 years.

Before retiring, I wrote a couple of non-fiction books dealing with mythology and the role of women in myths and sacred texts. After retiring, I turned my attention to fictional re-tellings of myths. Gilgamesh of Uruk is my latest novel.

The first decision I made when working on the novel was to give “Old Woman” (Utnapishtim’s wife) a voice and a prominent role. She is silent in the original and recedes into the background. I rearranged the sequence of events and opened with Utnapishtim and Old Woman in Dilmun. I turned her into a spirited character with plenty to say. I love her feistiness and had a lot of fun with her.

The book blurb:

Gilgamesh, son of the goddess Ninsun and the mortal Lugalbanda, is the arrogant king of the vibrant city of Uruk, a sprawling desert metropolis. In an attempt to quell Gilgamesh’s oppressive behavior, the gods fashion the wild man, Enkidu, to be a companion to the king and to calm his errant ways. The two form an inseparable bond, embark on a wild misadventure, and commit a series of blunders that offend the very gods who created Enkidu. What happens next sends Gilgamesh on an epic journey to find his ancestor, Utnapishtim the Faraway, to learn his story of survival and unlock the secrets of immortality.

Gilgamesh of Uruk is available in paperback, Kindle, and on audio.

https://www.amazon.com/Gilgamesh-Uruk...

If you click on the Audible Sample, you can hear me reading an excerpt :)

Thanks to the moderators for selecting the novel as a group read. I hope you enjoy it and welcome your questions and thoughts. Please feel free to discuss it.

Happy reading, everyone!

I actually went out a bought a copy! I so look forward to reading this! I probably will start later next week!

Tamara wrote: "The Epic of Gilgamesh, also known as the Izdubar Epic, recounts the adventures of the historical king Gilgamesh who ruled the ancient Mesopotamian city of Uruk (modern day Iraq) around 2750 BCE. Wr..."

Would the "old woman" count as a crone? If so, I'll nominate it for the Into the Forest Group Read!

Yes, she definitely is a crone. And a feisty one at that!

Jalilah wrote: "I actually went out a bought a copy! I so look forward to reading this! I probably will start later next week!"

Great! Thank you. I hope you enjoy it.

I'll be joining you in a few days as well, looking forward to starting the book!

Cam wrote: "I'll be joining you in a few days as well, looking forward to starting the book!"

Wonderful! Thank you.

Thank you so much Tamara for sharing this experience with us , I hope this will be a splendid discussion :)

I only just started but am really enjoying it thus far! The characters seem believable even though the circumstances are fantastical.
It makes me ponder over the idea that many characters and events in mythology are based on some kind of actual events that happened or people who might have actually lived.

Jalilah wrote: "I only just started but am really enjoying it thus far! The characters seem believable even though the circumstances are fantastical.
It makes me ponder over the idea that many characters and even..."

Thank you, Jalilah! I'm so glad you're enjoying it. I tried to make the characters sound like real people when I gave them a voice. I hope I succeeded :)

I don't know if any of the characters were real, other than Gilgamesh. His name is listed in the Sumerian King List, so he must have been a real king in Mesopotamia, probably ruling some time between 2800 and 2500 BCE. He was posthumously deified.

I really enjoyed it! Here is my review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jalilah wrote: "I really enjoyed it! Here is my review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show..."

I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for the lovely review.

This thread has been very quiet. Is anyone other than Jalilah reading this?

Tamara wrote: "This thread has been very quiet. Is anyone other than Jalilah reading this?"

33 views , it seems some members are following the discussion but no participating.

Niledaughter wrote: "Tamara wrote: "This thread has been very quiet. Is anyone other than Jalilah reading this?"

33 views , it seems some members are following the discussion but no participating."

I wonder why. I hope it's not something I said :)

I recommended Tamara's novel to a reader which may explain the views. I hope you get more activity in this discussion!! Much love to you!

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I recommended Tamara's novel to a reader which may explain the views. I hope you get more activity in this discussion!! Much love to you!"

Thank you! I really appreciate it. Much love back at you!

Cheers!

Tamara wrote: "Niledaughter wrote: "Tamara wrote: "This thread has been very quiet. Is anyone other than Jalilah reading this?"

33 views , it seems some members are following the discussion but no participating...."

Don't take it personally Tamara. You certainly did not say anything. Participation really varies and seems to be random. Sometimes people can't find the books, or are reading other ones. A couple of times I was asked to moderate a discussion here and to my embarrassment no one even commented, so since then I always decline when asked.
Your book is very good and I am sure people will eventually discover it.

Jalilah wrote: "Don't take it personally Tamara. You certainly did not say anything. Participation really varies and seems to be random. Sometimes people can't find the books, or are reading other ones.."

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Jalilah.
I moderated a discussion here a while back on a book about Baghdad. It got a few comments, but it was a little discouraging because of the paucity of participation. People may just be too busy and/or reading other books as you said.
No worries. I'll just keep chugging along.

My dear Tamara, your novel requires a very special reader. Many would be afraid to pick it up. It's a reach for most.
It's not you!It's us!!!

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "My dear Tamara, your novel requires a very special reader. Many would be afraid to pick it up. It's a reach for most.
It's not you!It's us!!!"

Why a special reader? I'd hate to think I've written a novel that many would be afraid to pick up. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have written a novel. I would have written a non-fictional work analyzing the myth just as I did with the feminist analysis of the Demeter/Persephone myth many years ago.

While it may be true that I have more knowledge of the Gilgamesh myth and its background than some people, the novel is a work of fiction and has a very easy to follow story-line. I intentionally made it accessible and portrayed characters who are relatable. You don’t need any prior knowledge of the myth to understand the novel or relate to the characters.

For me I think that putting the myth in the form of a novel is a great idea :) . My be Reem meant a certain degree of concentration?

Tamara, if it was not for my upside down timetable I would have joined the discussion, I rarely read outside of my study now, and if I do it is usually light and distracting.

I am sure this situation is related to the nature of our group, we have so many members but only few of them are really active :(

I am hounered that you gave us this opportunity to discuss your book with us and I am sorry if this was not a pleasant experience for you .

I was hoping to motivate readers with that. We readers like to be challenged.

Niledaughter wrote: "Tamara, if it was not for my upside down timetable I would have joined the discussion, I rarely read outside of my study now, and if I do it is usually light and distracting..."

There is absolutely no need to be apologetic about this. Your studies must take priority. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I was looking forward to discussing the book and hearing people's thoughts, so I can't pretend I'm not a little disappointed there hasn't been any discussion. But I understand people have busy lives and other priorities. If they participate in the discussion, all the better. If not, no worries.

And, please, Niledaughter, don't feel the need to apologize or feel bad about this. You are under enough pressure with your studies as it is. I don't want to add to it. I'm not worried, and you shouldn't be, either.

Take care and good luck with your studies. all best.

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "I was hoping to motivate readers with that. We readers like to be challenged."

Understood. Thanks.

Dear Tamara,
I have a point to discuss , may be it is not in the core of this epic but some how related , it is about Ishtar , if I am not mistaken the myth portraying her love story with Tammuz shares its similarities with the Egyptian myth of Isis and Osiris. In the epic related to your novel- which I assume that it was partially based on some historical facts ; the hero is Gilgamesh; a king seeking glory while Ishtar is portrayed in different way? I read somewhere it is a shift from the the Divine Feminine towards the ‘masculine’ side and establishing the patriarchal society. Since you already wrote a book about role of women in myths and sacred texts; I was curious how all of this was reflected in the original myth and in your book ?

Niledaughter wrote: "Dear Tamara,
I have a point to discuss , may be it is not in the core of this epic but some how related , it is about Ishtar , if I am not mistaken the myth portraying her love story with Tammuz sh..."

That’s a great question. In order to do it justice, it requires a lengthy and complicated response. But I’ll try to be brief.

A myth in which a female goddess figure is stripped of some or all of her powers by a male god is evidence of the increasing dominance of the patriarchal power structure. For example, in the Isis/Osiris myth of Ancient Egypt, Isis is the mother goddess who once held all the power. When her brother, Osiris, is killed by their brother Seth, it is Isis who revives him and sends him to the afterlife to become the supreme god and judge of the dead. If it weren’t for Isis, Osiris’ dismembered body would still be floating down the Nile. Nevertheless, it is Osiris who becomes the supreme deity.

In the Enuma Elish (The Babylonian Creation), the mother goddess Tiamat is killed by one of her descendants, the male god Marduk. He is helped by the other male gods. Marduk kills Tiamat, splits open her carcass and fashions the earth and sky out of her mutilated body. The earth is still female but it is now under the control of Marduk who becomes the supreme god as a result of matricide.

The goddess Inanna of Ancient Sumer (known as Ishtar to the Semites) was once a multifaceted goddess with prolific powers, including power over all earthly fertility. In the Inanna and Dumuzi story of Ancient Sumer (the Ishtar and Tammouz story of the Semites), Inanna experiences an erosion of her powers. She has to rely on her brother Gilgamesh to rid the Huluppu tree of unwanted creatures. She needs the decrees of the male god Enki to empower her. And Inanna/Ishtar has to rely on union with Dumuzi/Tammouz to bring fertility to the earth. The Sumerians celebrated this event at the sacred marriage rites during the New Year Festival.

In the Gilgamesh story, Ishtar seeks union with her brother Gilgamesh. He rebuffs her advances. No longer able to retaliate on her own, she pleads with her father to send the Bull of Heaven to avenge her wounded pride. Gilgamesh and Enkidu not only kill the Bull of Heaven, they insult and ridicule Ishtar.

In each case, we see the goddess being stripped of her powers which are subdued, circumscribed, and appropriated by a male god, i.e. the ascendance of patriarchal power structure and the corresponding subordination of the female. The same thing happens in Greek and Roman mythology whenever you read about a female goddess being overpowered by a male god—whether that power over is through rape or takes some other form.

I hope this answers your question. I did try to be brief but without much success. The trouble is once I get started with this topic, I can’t stop :)

Tamara wrote: "The trouble is once I get started with this topic, I can’t stop :)..."

I don't see that as 'trouble', Tamara. I see it as delightful; besides you did constrain your response within a few paragraphs.

As much feminine mythology as I have encountered in my lifetime, this is one of the clearest and most succinct I've met up with on gender power struggles among these particular goddesses and gods.

I am not reading your book right now; my TBR is too high with other priorities. But I have touched upon the take of Gilgamesh many times and hope I shall eventually get to your take on it. In the meantime, I will continue to follow what does appear here.

Lily wrote: "Tamara wrote: "The trouble is once I get started with this topic, I can’t stop :)..."

I don't see that as 'trouble', Tamara. I see it as delightful; besides you did constrain your response within ..."

Thank you for your kind comments, Lily. Your support means a lot to me.

Thank you so much Tamara , and I did not feel it long at all! you made now wonder why Isis cult was the last to resist fading in Egypt before the dominance of Christianity , she was legendary, her temple in Aswan was the last to be closed in Egypt and she was not only worshiped by the Egyptians , but Nubians, Ethiopians, Greek and Romans!

Back to your novel, why did you choose The Epic of Gilgamesh" as your first retelling project? was adding a feminine voice part of the inspiration as you mentioned :
Tamara wrote: "The first decision I made when working on the novel was to give “Old Woman” (Utnapishtim’s wife) a voice and a prominent role. She is silent in the original and recedes into the background. I rearranged the sequence of events and opened with Utnapishtim and Old Woman in Dilmun. I turned her into a spirited character with plenty to say. I love her feistiness and had a lot of fun with her..."

Niledaughter wrote: "Back to your novel, why did you choose The Epic of Gilgamesh" as your first retelling project? was adding a feminine voice part of the inspiration as you mentioned :.."

Thank you for your question.

Actually, it's not my first retelling project. It's my third. My first one is A Pomegranate and the Maiden, based on the Demeter/Persephone story. It is one of my favorite myths because it focuses on women.

My second retelling is Unsung Odysseys, a retelling of Odysseus' journey home through the voices of the women involved in his story.

And the third is Gilgamesh of Uruk.

I like to give voice to women in my retellings because they are usually silent in myths. As I said earlier, Utnapishtim's wife is mentioned in the original epic but she is marginalized and totally silent. She is a crone. I love crones because they are not easily intimidated. They've been there, seen it, done it, and are not afraid to speak their minds. They penetrate through the nonsense. So I gave Old Woman a voice and watched her punch a hole in Gilgamesh's inflated ego every time he puffed up his chest and bragged about himself. But she is also very nurturing and sensitive. She is my favorite character in the novel.

I'm only just getting to this book as work has been manic and I've got another six on the go (oops).

I'm enjoying it so far, and it reads very easily and smoothly. The opening put me in mind of Anouilh's Antigone, in the sense of the timelessness of the writing, and the feeling of contemporary relevance of the action. Old Woman reminds me of my grandma, and of these women who lived smothered lives until their 50s or 60s, and spent the remaining decades fighting back against the BS they accepted for too long. My only niggle so far is that she is a bit over-narrated at times (we are told what she thinks, how she reacts, and how we should interpret her thoughts and body language), but that probably helps make the story more accessible. Overall, it is making me intrigued about learning more about the myth itself and that period of history, so that's a definite win in my books!

Cam wrote: "I'm only just getting to this book as work has been manic and I've got another six on the go (oops).

I'm enjoying it so far, and it reads very easily and smoothly. The opening put me in mind of An..."

Cam, I don't know how far along you are, but I hope you will continue to share your thoughts. I'm excited to hear more. I love that Old Woman reminds you of your grandmother!

Reading seven books at once! I don't know how you do it. I'm a one-book-at-a-time sort of person. I have to finish one book before I can start another. I'm in awe of people who can juggle several books at the same time. I'm pretty sure my brain would turn to mush if I tried to do that. Happy reading--on all the books you're reading.

This was a very enjoyable read! I really liked the questioning of the "heroic deeds" and pursuit of masculinity through senseless violence. The ending made me think further: what would it mean for Gilgamesh to embody a more positive masculinity? What if his "subjects" were appalled by his idiotic quests? Grief was dealt with in the style of the epic (or what I imagine it to be), with the type of advice which Old Woman herself is clearly struggling to implement as she attempts to deal with her own loss and guilt. I thought it was great to have kept that ambiguity, the fact that none of the characters (including the gods) are "perfect heroes".
I liked the discussion of the senselessness of the flood, which made me see the story in a different light (I hadn't been given it much thought before - the survivors have had to actively lie to make sure they survive while ensuring others' death, definitely an important aspect of the Christian story too).
I just had two niggles:
* The "little girl" taunts before Gilgamesh embarks on his quest: why?
* The idea that "immigrants" coming to the great city made too much noise and therefore caused the anger of the gods.
The latter is particularly problematic in my eyes. This is a retelling. Old Woman became a full character. Why keep the xenophobia?

Cam wrote: "* The idea that "immigrants" coming to the great city made too much noise and therefore caused the anger of the gods.
The latter is particularly problematic in my eyes. This is a retelling. Old Woman became a full character. Why keep the xenophobia?.."

Wow, Cam! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I'm so glad you enjoyed it.

Your point about xenophobia is well taken. I struggled with that, myself. I tried to come up with some other possible reason for a flood, but I couldn't come up with anything that I thought would work. In the end, I decided to stick with the original. I probably should have tried a little harder.

Thank you so much for your comments. Your words of support mean a lot to me.

Just a note by way of explanation:

Cam, if you recall, Utnapishtim never suggested evicting the immigrants or building a wall to keep them out. He welcomed them but tried to impose calm because he knew the gods were petty and would get upset if people were too noisy. He was right.

The gods did get upset but not because of the influx of immigrants, per se, but because the noise was keeping them awake. So it wasn't so much xenophobia that led to the flood. It was the excessive noise that prevented the gods from taking their naps.

I struggled to come up with a cause for the flood that would show the gods as petty and selfish while absolving Utnapishtim of blame. In the end, I stuck with the original because I thought it worked best.

Thanks for explaining. I can only imagine how tricky it must be to balance the original story (especially such a crucial component as this) and the retelling.

Tamara wrote: "Just a note by way of explanation:

Cam, if you recall, Utnapishtim never suggested evicting the immigrants or building a wall to keep them out. He welcomed them but tried to impose calm because h..."

Cam wrote: "This was a very enjoyable read! I really liked the questioning of the "heroic deeds" and pursuit of masculinity through senseless violence. The ending made me think further: what would it mean for ..."

Both the novel and original poem are very thought provoking! Honestly I had not considered this aspect when I read either of them. I recently watched this interesting 11 minute video on the History of the Pre-Islamic Middle East and the phenomenon of immigration and migration is brought up. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBpQiJt...