North & South discussion
Anniversary Watch, November 2014
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First Thoughts :)
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Hi Becca, just thought I'd let you know that I posted some of my thoughts earlier tonight in the Chapters 1-3 section. Just waiting for the FB group (or anyone, for that matter, LOL) to respond before I post anything else. I find it difficult to start but once I get into a discussion I can't stop :-)
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Oh honey, I know you've been studying .... I just wanted you to know that I'm trying to stir the FB group into coming over here to start talking :-) Now, get back to your studying .... I'm going to sleep :-)
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I don't think it has been a year since my last watching but it is around 10 years since my first watching. I was in high school and was an active member of British Council Croatia. They had a gorgeous library that actually helped in forming my literary and cinematic taste. :) I've had the DVDs for as long but they are now broken (no surprise there! :D) so I had to download the episodes. Will start watching today and will try to count John Thornton's smiles. :D
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HiI watch N&S every once in awhile. Maybe every other month. I have the DVD and I ask my husband to watch TV upstairs ( he's good about that) and I watch it straight through. Of course I watch it on Saturday night. I love it. It's my way of treating myself!! Just like tonight!
Grace
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Episode 1:
~ Am I going insane, or are the horse hooves clip-clopping in time to the wedding music?
~ I love that little hand-holding moment between Mr. and Mrs. Hale. :)
~ Oh look, two minutes in and already we’re being treated to Henry’s great compliments. *rolls eyes*
~ *inevitably imagines Thornton picking a flower and handing it to Margaret instead of Henry* I seem to be in even less of a Henry Lennox mood than usual today, hmmm…
~ Awwwwkkkwwwaaarrrrddd. I always feel a bit sorry for Henry, but then he goes and makes that comment about London girls and I think he’s an annoying snob all over again.
~ Nice attempt at getting a beach holiday, Maria. :P
~ Those two always make me feel like designing a cover for the Milton Gossip Girl Magazine, then just shoving it at them and saying “Get writing, this is your new job.” Oh dear, now I’m actually thinking about what this magazine would look like…
~ I never really noticed that clock before... it’s almost four o’clock! Margaret must have been looking for a house all day! No wonder her patience is wearing thin.
~ I love that first scene in the mill… so visually beautiful, that haunting soundtrack, and then our first sight of John Thornton through the clouds of cotton…
~ And now he’s beating up a worker. *le sigh*
~ See? Wouldn’t it be so helpful to have a Milton Gossip Girl Magazine right about now? Instead of the ladies having to explain the situation to Mr. Hale, they could have just shown him the relevant page in the magazine. :P
~ I wonder how far it is from Helstone to Milton? Must go look that up sometime…
~ Poor Mr. Hale. I do feel sorry for him and I respect his decision, but they really should have had this discussion weeks ago.
~ That scene with the workers teasing Margaret was so scary when I first saw it.
~ Already met? Less than pleasant circumstances? Dear Thornton, what an understatement.
~ No, no, I’m not allowed to say “Poor Thornton” yet, it’s too soon…
~ Stop stalking Bessie, Margaret. :P
~ Having read the book not so long ago, this time around I can really see Margaret trying to do what she would have done back home. At home she would have tried to help the less fortunate and her help would have been very well received, but the poor girl has a lot to learn about Milton pride.
~ OMG FANNY THAT SKIRT! Forget fitting them in the room… how did they fit in the carriage?
~ I know Fanny lacks a little tact, but I must say, at least she tries. Without her it would just be extended periods of awkward silence.
~ Mrs. Thornton is the perfect image of a proud mother. I actually find that quite sweet.
~ Is it just me, or does one of the masters make a sort of laughing/snorting noise into his wine after Mr. Hale says “That would be the Christian way”? I thought I heard that this time, and saw Thornton’s face shift to a slightly angrier expression as he glanced over. Did anyone else see that? I don't know precisely the reason he was annoyed, but either way it makes me feel a little better about Thornton in this scene, in which a few of his statements make me a little uneasy. Those other masters REALLY piss me off though.
~ Dickson only encourages Maria’s melancholy, rather than making her happier. Grrr.
~ I love seeing the friendship blossom between Margaret and Bessie, it’s so lovely.
~ *giggles* That look Mr. Thornton directs up towards the ceiling as he puts his jacket on… priceless.
~ I love that little smile after he knocks on the Hale’s door, it shows just how much he’s looking forward to this evening with his friend.
~ The look in John's eyes as Margaret is pouring the tea… *swoon*
~ Yes, Mr Thornton's been admiring your *cough* daughter *cough* newly decorated rooms, Maria.
~ You’re right, Mr. Thornton, you Masters aren’t all the same. One of you is at the very least far better looking. ;) (Okay, yes, and a far better man in every way)
~ *hugs for Thornton*
~ Not cool, Margaret. Officially. Not. Cool.
~ When Margaret says “I’m sorry to have offended your friend,” this time around it really struck me how young she still is, with so much to learn.
~ Oh look, Thornton’s practicing his ‘smouldering while leaning against a wall with his arms crossed’ from the top window. :P (I can imagine that ‘smoulder and lean’ came in very handy for Richard with Gisborne a few years later…)
~ Higgins, did it never occur to you that perhaps some of those excuses are valid? Still, I admit it’s really harsh that they still haven’t got back to their wages from five years ago.
~ That ending… such a perfect, beautiful, yet sad ending to for an episode. <3
And... I went totally overkill on the notes. *facepalm* Oh well! I'll try and rein myself in a bit for the next episode. Shouldn't be too hard, all I'll have to say for the end of the episode is "In tears for the last ten minutes." :D
Can I ask, what does everyone think of the way Thornton first appears in the adaptation? That scene with beating up the worker in the mill - when I first saw the adaptation it was just after I had finished the book and I was shocked. Maybe it was because I had just emotionally settled on the nice Mr Thornton who just got engaged to Margaret in the book. But still it seemed like a shocking thing for him to do. I can see the meaning of it now, however. It kind of gives the viewer the shock that Margaret must have felt going from heavenly Helston to the hellish Milton. It also gives us that double take Margaret must make intellectually, to encompass the brutality with the justification of it. So yeah, when I first saw the scene I was shocked and disliked it intensely, but then I thought that for adaptational purposes it is rather brilliant.
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I hadn't read the book when I first saw N&S, but I had originally started watching North & South because I wanted to see Richard Armitage in the Hobbit - so naturally, I was rather startled that his first appearance involved him beating a worker. But having not read the book I was more inclined to accept Thornton's explanation (having seen three-hundred people killed by a fire and then having someone smoking in your mill, after a warning! That would make me mad!), and since having read the book I definitely understand why they made the change. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, it gives Margaret a slightly clearer and more substantial reason for Margaret to be prejudiced against Thornton than a simple dislike of "shoppy people". I know some others feel very differently, but I felt that it worked. You expressed the issue in my view perfectly - shocking upon a first viewing, but for adaptational purposes it was quite brilliant.
My first group watch, yayy!!! :D I have just finished viewing it, and it was of course delightful! I do so love reading your comments Becca! I agree with you on everything. That scene where Margaret pours the tea and John looks at her...swoon indeed!!To answer Emily's question, the first time I watched the movie was before reading the book, and I really did not like how they portrayed Mr. Thornton at the beginning. In fact I didn't really like him on my first viewing, and though I sometimes found Margaret harsh in her opinions of him, I often agreed with her. When I read the book though, I was really impressed with him, and now every time I watch the movie that first scene does not quite have the same effect on me.
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I didn't know you weren't that fond of Mr. Thornton when you first saw North & South! I liked him very much indeed, soon after his reason for beating up the worker was explained. But I agree that many of Margaret's criticisms are valid, which is one of the best things about both the novel and the series; all of the characters are very human, they all have their faults, and we love them nonetheless. :) In any event, it's wonderful that scene doesn't have such an effect on you any more!
Thank you Becca!! I am so happy I could join too :) I only watched the final two episodes today since it's late here (almost 11 pm) and I had watched ep. 1 +2 a short while ago. :)I can't wait for the next wave of comments, they are so fun! :P
Oh I had not told you that? The very first time I watched North and South, not only did I not like it that much, but I didn't like Thornton in the beginning either!! Quite shocking, I know... I was like Margaret, disliking him all along, and then gradually coming to like him, and I was definitely rooting for him to win her in the end!! :) I am so glad I don't dislike him anymore though ;) Who could after that kiss... :P
I know this is probably redundant, but I feel like it should be said anyway... I don't think I would have liked this adaptation half so much if it were not for probably the best casting choice in any adaptation I have ever seen of Richard Armitage as Thornton. Even that first shocking scene of him beating up a worker kind of worked because of the way he carried it off, both the actual deed and then the explanation. He is both strong and intelligent enough, or perhaps his performance was. Also, unrelated, I like his voice.
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So glad you enjoy my comments! What did you think of the Milton Gossip Girl Magazine idea? :D :P
I knew that you didn't like N&S so much the first time you saw it, but I didn't know that your dislike extended to Thornton too! I am decidedly shocked. As you know I had very mixed feelings about North & South to begin with, just as you did, it simply sounds as if Mr. Thornton grew on me a bit quicker than he did for you. :) Thank goodness you don't dislike him now! I'd be seriously worried about you if you did. :P
@ Emily: It's not redundant at all! I sort of agree with you there, actually. I think that North & South is one of the most flawlessly cast series I've ever seen in my life, but even amongst such a brilliant ensemble, the casting of Richard Armitage as John Thornton really stands out. So while I would still have enjoyed the series without him, I agree I wouldn't have liked the adaptation nearly so much. I also completely agree with you that he carried off both the shocking introduction and the explanation very well, to the extent that it didn't impede too significantly upon the viewer's perception of Mr. Thornton's journey as a character. Richard gave a very nuanced, intelligent, detailed and brilliant performance... he was truly remarkable, the perfect Mr. Thornton. :)
... And that voice! How could you not love that voice? :D When I watched it with my parents my Dad was pausing it at least once per episode to make fun of the Thornton's accents, but I could understand him very well. Still, even if I couldn't understand a word Richard said, I wouldn't mind listening to his voice all day. :)
Lol, I am glad you agree :) He has recorded some audiobooks, my favourite Georgette Heyer of all things (which really did make him subdue whatever was left unconquered of my heart, to paraphrase Jane Austen). His voice does things to me. Ahem. Anyway, to return to rational conversation.Do you think the role of Margaret equally well cast? I have my reservations. Looks-wise I think she is perfect, she is very pretty and I like that they did not cast a stick insect in the role, since I find that always very odd in historical drama where that sort of shape of woman was not considered, on the whole, attractive. But her acting irritated me in places. She has an odd, wide-eyed, open-mouthed look, which was just odd.
I think that the whole cast was perfect. Each actor lived up to his/her role. @Becca - about Fanny's dress, I was also wondering how on Earth did she manage to get inside that carriage. :D
Upon this viewing I rolled my eyes on Margaret so much in the first two episode, my head started to hurt :D This time, I was team Thornton all the way. :)
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I do! It's interesting to hear your opinion, because I've often heard the exact opposite expressed - that Daniela didn't suit people's image of Margaret at all, but that her acting was very good. Despite not having dark hair I think that she was very well cast looks-wise, but I also agree with the casting in terms of her acting. She delivered a very strong and genuine performance I thought, and she certainly felt like Margaret to me - thought that look you're referring to does irritate me very occasionally.
Talking about brilliant casting - another actress I've got to (figuratively) applaud is Sinead O'Connor as Mrs. Thornton! She was simply stunning, and inhabited every aspect of Mrs. Thornton that I could have imagined had I read the novel before seeing the series - from her looks to acting out every aspect of Mrs. Thornton's nature and character. :) And her scenes with Armitage are so endearingly touching.
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@Becca - about Fanny's dress, I was also wondering..."
I completely agree with you there, Samanta - some actors and actresses did a little better than others compared to one another, but in general as an entire cast they were each perfect for their character and their acting was very genuine, of the highest quality. :)
LOL, glad I wasn't the only one wondering! I mean, come on, that carriage was pretty small, and between those two dresses, it must have been quite squished in there!
Three cheers for Team Thornton! A Team which I'm also on too, in case it wasn't painfully obvious already. :D
Yes yes yes yes to Mrs Thornton! If my attention were not so completely absorbed by a tall, dark and handsome man I should have said the same. She is Mrs Thornton!!!
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And now for my thoughts on Episode Two!
Episode Two:
~ Mrs Thornton does have a good heart beneath it all; it’s oddly sweet that she tries to let the mother keep a child working in the factory. And I love that little questioning look she directs towards John – the co-operation and trust between them is one of the best things about the series.
~ Respect for Thornton heading WAY up, if that’s even possible – the other masters are such embarrassing human beings compared to him.
~ AWKWARD AWKWARD AWKWARD AWWWKKKWAAARRRDD! *covers face with hands*
~ The concern on John’s face when he hears Margaret has been asking for the name of a doctor… Nawww!
~ Mr. Thornton is remarkably kind and patient with Margaret during this scene, I think.
~ “There’s loads of girls after him!” Oh if only he knew… only every woman who has ever seen North & South... ever. :D
~ Does it seem to anyone else as if Margaret is looking for reasons to be annoyed at Thornton? Like asking Bessy if it was at Marlborough Mills that she fell ill?
~ Poor Bessy! And Fred! *sniffle*
~ Mr. Thornton really isn’t doing a very convincing job of reading that newspaper. :P
~ Mrs. Thornton, please stop talking! You’re hurting John’s feelings! (And Fanny, please stop humming! You’re hurting my ears!)
~ Complete indifference… pssh.
~ That scene where they all decide to strike – between the soundtrack and their fierce determination, I find it all so heart-breaking, knowing it can’t turn out well. And of course the following scene only confirms it. Just… poor everyone. :(
~ Anyone know what four hundred pounds is in modern terms?
~ I can never get over how powerful a moment it is when Mrs. Thornton hears the machines in the mill finally stop turning.
~ How silly and insignificant Edith’s problems seem, compared to the problems in Milton!
~ I always feel sorry for Boucher, really I do, but his whining never fails to annoy me.
~ It’s somewhat strange to hear Margaret contemplating that some of the masters – particularly Thornton – may be more honourable than Higgins perceives them to be.
~ Mrs. Thornton actually looks very striking in the black dress, but it’s probably best not to talk about Fanny’s dress… (Did they kill a peacock to decorate it, or what?)
~ GO AWAY SLICKSON! SLIMY EEL!
~ See Thornton? She looked back at you! Just a bit too early, that’s all.
~ “… saw you taking a basket to the Princeton District the other afternoon.” *literally everyone in the room drops their spoons*
~ OMG MR BELL, SHUT UP!
~ Thornton does look a little ashamed at Margaret’s question actually, the way his eyes drop away from meeting hers.
~ Table settings, lol. Nice save. Kind of.
~ I know both Maria and Dickson often irritate me, but in these couple of scenes I really feel sorry for the both of them.
~ Really not the best time to ask for a water mattress, Margaret.
~ That riot scene! JUST. TOO. MANY. FEELS!!! :’( All of these actors and actresses are simply phenomenal. I’ll probably speak more about this scene in the discussions, but if I start now I’ll honestly never stop.
~ Yeah, Jane, haven’t you got anything to be getting on with? Jees. :P
~ When Mrs. Thornton says “John! I’m asking you not to go,” and I see the look on John’s face as he looks back at her… the relationship between the two of them has such a strong effect on me at times. I know Mrs. Thornton is a teensy bit possessive, but if ever I have a son, I hope I have such a deep understanding with him as Hannah does with John.
~ It was only the last time I watched this little part of the episode that I realised John’s lips are actually moving as he’s walking – he looks so completely absorbed by the events of the day, and the trouble and confusion in his heart are literally written all over his face.
~ This scene between John and Hannah is so unbelievably touching, one of my very favourite scenes in the entire series. It couldn’t be more sad, more beautiful, or more perfect.
~ (The other day I showed a friend a clip of the riot scene and this scene. She said they were both very ‘feelsy’. My response: *laughs* “Huge understatement, but yes, that’s pretty much it in a nutshell.”)
~ Yes, Edith, if Margaret were not in Milton she would not be witnessing this suffering… but that doesn’t mean the suffering would not be happening! *sigh* Edith means no harm I know, and she’s a sweet little thing, but she is nothing to Margaret.
~ *weeping*… Enough said. :’(
Episode two is my favourite, you are right so many feels!As to the question about currency: according to national archives £400 in 1850 (which is, I assume, the setting of the novel) equals £23,412.00 in 2005. That is $36,684.26.
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Thanks so much for answering my question about the money, Emily! In New Zealand dollars that's near enough to $50,000... just WOW, as Samanta said. If Mr. Thornton is owed that much money from his buyers, no wonder he's having trouble finding the money to pay his workers!
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~ Thornton!!! :’( *hugs*
~ What exactly are those little pieces of lace that Bessy and Margaret are playing with?
~ Dear John and Hannah Thornton, please stop breaking my heart. I literally cannot handle the two of you. And poor John! “No one loves me. No one cares for me but you…” Waaaah! :’( The adorable little eyelid flickers while Thornton’s trying not to be upset… Just. Cannot. Handle. The Sad. Feels.
~ I’m going to agree with Margaret on that one… a note would be a little less awkward. Just a little.
~ Boucher, Bessy, Nicholas… everyone’s so sad. :(
~ Mr. Bell needs some sort of title… Master of Creating Awkward Moments?
~ I always feel sorry for Mr. Hale when Mr. Thornton has cancelled his lesson… his completely clueless and innocent disappointment is so sweet, as is his kind, endearing optimism in suggesting he send a note to Thornton.
~ Bessy! Nicholas! :’( :’(
~ Oops. Bringing up Thornton’s name may not have been the best idea. Much as I feel sorry for Nicholas, I agree with Margaret in commending Thornton for not pressing charges against Boucher.
~ *hugs for Higgins*
~ For some reason the sound of Mrs Hale sipping soup always irritates the hell out of me…
~ Speaking of annoying… cue the London Snobs. The Exhibition looks interesting though, and Edith’s husband seems very sweet.
~ “Neither do we have to suffer the Northern climate, do we Miss Hale?” *restrains self from strangling Henry*
~ I just HATE it how Edith says that Margaret has always had a mind of her own like it’s an apology!
~ Mr. Thornton in a particularly deep and philosophical mood… Awww. It’s nice for Margaret to see that he does actually care about the wellbeing of others, that he doesn’t enjoy fighting with his workers or seeing them suffer.
~ Oi, Miss Latimer! Stop making eyes at John. *glares*
~ HENRY!!! *extreme self-restraint*
~ I think the two actresses really capture the mood from the novel here so perfectly – Mrs. Hale’s illness and desperation, and Mrs. Thornton softening a little upon realising her friend is far more ill than she thought.
~ I know Margaret has her reasons, but her rudeness to Mr. Thornton so soon after her refusal of his proposal… it makes me cringe, and then I see the hurt in both their eyes – especially John’s – and it makes me feel so sad.
~ Aaaah! Why must so many people die in this episode?! :’(
~ It’s so terribly sad seeing Mr. Hale sitting next to his dead wife, and speaking to her as if she were still around… He can’t accept that she’s really gone.
~ OMG Leonards totally creeps me out.
~ Margaret defending Mr. Thornton again! I would be pleased if I didn’t know how much pain that night at the station would give Mr. Thornton. Poor, poor Thornton.
~ Oh look, and another one gone. They really do drop like flies in this episode, but to be honest I’m glad that Leonards is gone.
~ I can’t help feeling sorry for Boucher, truly, but I can never help feeling a little angry either. Suicide is such a selfish thing to do. And all those men! Cowards, sending a young girl to tell the wife about the death of her husband.
~ And I believe we’re finally out of The Death Zone. Thank goodness.
~ Poor Margaret has such a terrible burden to carry in this episode, and it only keeps getting heavier. And the same is very true of Thornton!
~ I love Thornton all the more for protecting Margaret the way he did – but what a sad way to end the episode, him telling her that his “foolish passion” for her is entirely over! Of course that isn’t quite true, but he’s clearly very angry and both of them are in so much pain. :’(
Nope, the Death Zone is still not over, it's just shifting :D
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I just finished watching the fourth episode and am in a good place :)
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Episode 4:
~ Nice to see Margaret finally starting to see the light. :)
~ I know people have noticed this before, but you really have to listen carefully to what Margaret is saying, otherwise it sounds like she is wishing that God and Thornton could speak man to man. *facepalm*
~ Yes Margaret – what has happened to bring about such a transformation? :P
~ I honestly do believe Mrs. Thornton had good intentions here, but she gets a bit carried away being angry at the girl who broke her son’s heart.
~ Oi, Margaret! Don’t turn this on Mr. Thornton, he’s the one that helped you! Mrs. Thornton was right to very firmly correct Margaret there.
~ I simply hate seeing Mr. Thornton’s business start to fail, knowing it wasn’t his fault.Even worse is Mr. Latimer just tootling around playing billiards as if it’s no big deal.
~ Higgins really couldn’t have chosen a worse time – which isn’t an excuse for Mr. Thornton, just an observation. Am I right in thinking Higgins had been waiting for five hours? Or was it longer?
~ It really is to Thornton’s credit how remarkably quickly he rethinks his treatment of Higgins.
~ Haha, that sideways look that John gives Fanny while she’s chattering on about Miss Hale being grave and disapproving and lacking humility… that look essentially summed up the feelings of the entire audience. Well done Richard. :D
~ Oh Thornton! *hugs* He is so strong and so firm in his principles, even faced with the possibility of defeat, and he can always count on his mother to be there for him.<3
~ Richard Armitage really does do a brilliant job showing Thornton’s feelings upon walking into the workers living area to find Higgins. The memories it must bring back for him! And yet he is so sweet giving money to that little girl. :)
~ Yay! Higgins and Thornton working together! I still laugh every time Thornton says “Was Miss Hale the woman who told you to come to me? You might have said” And when Higgins replies “Then you’d have been a bit more civil?” Thornton’s response (*glare and walk out*) is just priceless. :D
~ There’s still a lot keeping them from each other, but at least Thornton is starting to see Margaret’s opinion of him improve.
~ OMG that adorable little smile when Thornton sees the boy practicing his reading on the steps…
~ The scene where Mr. Thornton is helping Thomas with his reading, and then making a plan with Higgins… just awwwww! *explodes from happiness and cuteness*
~ Has anyone else ever wondered if Thornton’s arms would be cold, wandering around in the snow with his sleeves rolled up?!
~ LOL! *Thornton walks into the kitchen* - *massively awkward silence* - *Thornton and Higgins look at each other* - *Thornton sits down* - *everyone starts talking really quietly* :D
~ Please don’t leave Mr. Hale, please don’t leave… I don’t want the Death Zone back just yet…
~ Noooo! Mr. Hale! :’( :’( :’(
~ Mr. Thornton is so crushed. :’( :’(
~ (Side note: I believe that’s the only time we actually hear Mr. Thornton says Margaret’s name.)
~ Don’t you dare speak ill of Mr. Hale, Aunt Shaw! Don’t you dare!
~ “I’ve brought you Father’s Plato…” *breaks down crying for the next five minutes of the episode*
~ That new parson and his wife are both prats. :P
~ Mrs. Thornton.. Wild… heehee.
~ Oh Margaret, just admit it to yourself. You’ve grown to love Milton and you’ve grown to love a certain tall, dark and handsome mill owner. ;) Just admit it.
~ Mr. Bell spent most of his youth… on the sun? :D :P
~ I hate seeing Thornton so worried and tired. :(
~ Mrs. Thornton covering her sleeping son’s shoulders with her shawl… <3 Such a tiny scene, but so touching, one of my favourite scenes.
~ (When I watched N&S with my family, during that scene ^^ my brother said “She’s going to smother him!” as a joke. I wanted to slap him, but I managed not to. Just.)
~ I must say that London house is very pretty. :)
~ Oh good, another one of Henry’s stunning compliments. *yawn*
~ Fanny! Shut up, shut up! Oh, life seems SO unfair at this point! At least we know it all works out.
~ And this is where I mentally tune out of writing notes so I can go and get ridiculously emotional over the last ten minutes of the episode. I promise I’ll have sensible things to say about these scenes once we get to the discussions. :)
~ <3 <3 <3 North & South!
This is my first time seeing the adaptation right after reading the book. I think they did a good job o consensing the story. The book is so long and there are so many little subtle things that happen, it must have been hard to condense it. The producers said they had a much longer opening flashback but decided the story really starts with Edith's wedding. I am fine with the story starting there and moving right to Milton. Poor Margaret sees Thornton at his worst. That sets his character as far as the adaptation goes. He is very different from book Thornton though. Fanny's outfits are very over-the-top but they suit her character. She is sooo obnoxious! She wants to go to London and Alhambra? lol!
I love the way Thornton watches M's hands as she pours the tea. swoon!
I'm tired and must go to bed. I watched the whole thing and the deleted scenes. Those aren't anything special except an extended proposal scene. *sniff*
About those skirts - the steel hoops sprang back into shape after squishing and I think, like a bustle or panniers, were somewhat collapsable if you lifted correctly when you sat down. I liked this http://www.victoriana.com/Victorian-F... for explanation.I like that the filmmakers show Fanny's focus on fashion and silly trends in clothes as well as music. It's a easy-to-grasp reminder of how high-minded Margaret is to see her in comparison. Plus you can see how Milton is the tiniest bit behind London and how garish Milton must seem to Margaret.
And all in a single dress!
I can't believe what excellent filmmaking this is. I think I get caught in the story and forget by the end, but just now I notice it all: the use of reflections, the music and street sounds, the contrasts between green open Helstone and close grey Milton where people pluck chickens in the streets...Also I just realized that I have unconsciously thought of the Higginses living behind a Chinese restaurant (behind Golden Dragon) for ten years. Ha ha ha ha !
Kate wrote: "I can't believe what excellent filmmaking this is. I think I get caught in the story and forget by the end, but just now I notice it all: the use of reflections, the music and street sounds, the c..."All the little details matter and make the story work.
Episode 2
Things start to get better for Margaret. She makes friends with Bessy because she's so isolated and lonely. There's really no one who can be her friend. Fanny is too ditzy - worse even than Edith.
I felt horrible for the coughing child in the factory. Sure send another one of your kids to get sick. I know they need the wages but I don't know if I'd want my kid working in a cotton mill.
The lead up to the strike is really well done. It gets the audience invested and rallying behind the workers.
I agree with Becca. I feel sorry for Boucher but he does whine a lot and he skulks too, never fully committing to anything.
The dinner party scene is fabulous. M finally shakes Thornton's hand woohoo! They're so aware of each other. He likes that she speaks her mind though he disagrees with her.
Poor Mr. Bell tries to change the subject unsuccessfully. He's not so mischievous as he is in the novel but he still stirs the pot a bit.
The riot scene is incredible. Margaret is wonderful and Thornton shows he cares about her by trying to get her inside. Too bad she becomes conscious just as the women are gossiping. By the time Thornton comes back it's too late. SO SO SAD!
The end of the episode is so very sad!
$36,684.26? Woosh! That explains a lot.
~ What exactly are those little pieces of lace that Bessy and Margaret are playing with?
Just scraps. Something pretty for Bessy to have to take her mind of her illness. Lace was handmade and expensive at that time. I have a piece of early 1900s lace I bought online and it's so delicate and intricate!
Episode 3 breaks my heart. Poor John! M was so awful to him.
~ Mr. Bell needs some sort of title… Master of Creating Awkward Moments?
He does it on purpose.
~ I always feel sorry for Mr. Hale when Mr. Thornton has cancelled his lesson… his completely clueless and innocent disappointment is so sweet, as is his kind, endearing optimism in suggesting he send a note to Thornton.
That Thornton stops coming is what makes the whole thing even more sad. Mr. Hale loses his only friend in Milton.
The Exhibition scene is great. So telling! Margaret defends the north and "tradesmen"! GASP!
Henry is so just... yuck... snobby.
The body count begins... sniff
Leonards is nasty and I can't say he deserved to die but well, he did.
Boucher turning purple is so gross and makes me wonder what the heck the water in my town looked like when the bleach and dye works was in operation.
The Hales are stupid. If they want to hide Fred, don't put his satchel and hat in the hallway!
thornton is so noble even when he thinks M doesn't deserve it. *SOB*
The changes made from the book are really subtle and work well. The actors are so good you don't need the narration to know what's going on and what they are feeling.
Episode 4:
Starts off sad but when Thornton speaks with Higgins it gets better. This episode changes the timeline from the novel. I love the scheme of the workers' cafeteria and how Higgins starts to take care of Thornton and makes him eat. Higgins is no fool and he guesses that M's opinion means a lot to Thornton.
I want to slap Fanny silly in this episode. She deserves it.
Poor Mr. Hale! Poor Margaret! SOB!
Then Helstone isn't the same.
Edith is obnoxious "She's so good with Sholto. I hate to lose her. Maybe we can all live together in one house!" She means well but... no.
I like the change from the novel that Mr. Bell is going to die BUT I think that section of the novel helps Margaret become the strong woman she is at the end. I noticed movie Margaret is stronger and less destroyed by grief that she was in the book. In this version, Thornton really hits rock bottom. I think they both need to hit that breaking point before they can come together.
Aww poor Thornton up all night crunching numbers and his mother tries to comfort him. Then ... he goes to Helstone! *dies*
The ending *swoon*!! I know it's not accurate but it's soooo romantic and beautiful. *sniff*
Oh the dinner party scene! Can we just have a short mention of M.'s fabulous dress? She looks gorgeous and I want it. Also, there is some major flirting going on until their ideologies disagree once more. I am alway a little impressed that moment when Margaret shows some guts standing up for her beliefs even when she knows nobody at the table will agree with her.They do a very good job in this adaptation of showing how lonely and isolated the Hales are.
Emily wrote: "Oh the dinner party scene! Can we just have a short mention of M.'s fabulous dress? She looks gorgeous and I want it. Also, there is some major flirting going on until their ideologies disagree onc..."It's a fabulous dress but my goodness - could she show any more decolletage?
The scene is so wonderful because of what is left unsaid and even while arguing, Thornton can respect and admire Margaret's beliefs.
Mod
I've only watched the first two episodes. I haven't watched the mini-series in its entirety for pure enjoyment in over two years, so I was interested in watching for fun for the anniversary.
I must confess that after having spent the last several years involved in reading, studying, and discussion the book, I found episode one to be somewhat disappointing. The beating scene is truly ridiculous. And even when I first saw it, I dismissed it as merely planting revulsion in the heroine.
But now I recoil even more. What was the point in repeatedly punching the man? Wouldn't it have been more logical and straight to the point to grab the offender, give him a good yelling for blantantly disregarding safety rules, and roughly throwing him out of the mill? Losing his job forever is punishment enough. There's absolutely no need to 'punish' someone if you have no intention of having to deal with them again.
This is the worst blunder of the screenplay. And unfortunately it sets lots of people in the wrong direction. We even get to hear Thornton declare that he has a temper. Fabulous. Where is the basis for that in Gaskell's book? It's a horrible introduction of the hero. Margaret has every right to think he's a bit primeval. He certainly acted like it.
I think that Richard Armitage may have also felt the beating scene out of character for Thornton, since he studied the original novel. This is the only scene where I see Richard acting as angry mill owner. In all the other scenes he embodies the character.
I relish all the scenes where Hannah is trying to determine what's going on with her son. When he says he's going to dress to take tea and explains that "his daughter is an accomplished lady" -- the look that they give each other!
And then he says "Don't worry, Mother. I'm in no danger form Miss Hale. She's very unlikely to consider me a catch." I think Mum has noticed his interest because of his choice of words here. What he doesn't say is very telling. It would have been far more reassuring to tell Mum that he wasn't interested in Miss Hale. But he didn't say that, did he now?
And Hannah doesn't let it drop, she gives him another chance to declare he's not interested in Miss Hale by saying "what business has she to turn up her nose to you?" But he doesn't give Mum the answer she's looking for but rather just ignores the questions. Hannah's face after he walks away is priceless. She already suspects....
And then, the scene where Thornton has the courage to tell his mother "I wish you would try to like Miss Hale." Is he about to test the waters in acknowledging his interest to the family?
If he was fishing for any hope, it was swiftly dashed. His boyish smile at the word "attachment" fades into a face of silent pain as his mum brusquely adds her bit about Margaret laughing in her face at the idea. "She would never have me" is his answer. And this is always the first thing that comes out of his mouth when there is any hint made about his interest in Margaret. He always turns it around to declare that SHE would not have HIM. It speaks volumes about what he's really feeling.
The contradiction between day wear and evening wear in the 19th c. is so amazing, isn't it? People think the Victorians were all prim and proper but look at that dress! My father never would have let me out of the house without a "What are you wearing?!" That's definitely a London dress. The other dress she considered looked like her bridesmaid dress.I think everyone in Milton picks up on the fact that Thornton is interested in Margaret, beginning with his mother. She's sharp and misses nothing. She sees he's dressed well to go to tea with an "ex-parson" and then Miss Hale is all of a sudden an accomplished young lady he wishes his mother would be nice to? Hmm yes she knows her son is interested.
I think the best addition of the miniseries are the union scenes. You can really see the counterpoint to the masters' lives and opinions, and connect with Gaskell's show-all-sides-of-the-issue attitudes.
This seemed to work quite well last time, so I thought I'd put up a topic for people to post their first thoughts and impressions this time around as well. :) For those of you who haven't participated in a Group Watch so far - first of all, welcome! Secondly, you can us this thread in any way you want; random thoughts and comments, a record of all your impressions, or just notes on things you might want to discuss specifically later - anything goes. :)
Towards the end of the week I'll look at posting some more specific discussion threads for each of the episodes, along with a couple of other activities that have been suggested by our lovely group members. But for now, enjoy watching North & South! I feel honoured and very happy indeed to be sharing the 10th Anniversary of North & South with you all. :)
From the Mods:
~ Becca, Trudy, and Soph