Victorians! discussion

Welcome to our discussion of The Chimes!


Subtitled "A Goblin Story of Some Bells that Rang an Old Year Out and a New Year In", this is a short novel (no more than 100 pages and divided into "quarters") written and published in 1844, one year after A Christmas Carol and one year before The Cricket on the Hearth. It is the second in his series of "Christmas books": five short books with strong social and moral messages that he published during the 1840s.

Here are a few useful links for reference:

Project Gutenberg in case you don't have your copy yet: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/653

Wikipedia's entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chimes

From The Victorian Web: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/d...

EDIT: I have divided the discussion into its respective Quarters. Spoilers are fine up until the end of each section.

“Anon, it comes up stealthily, and creeps along the walls, seeming to read, in whispers, the Inscriptions sacred to the Dead. At some of these, it breaks out shrilly, as with laughter; and at others, moans and cries as if it were lamenting. It has a ghostly sound too, lingering within the altar; where it seems to chant, in its wild way, of Wrong and Murder done, and false Gods worshipped, in defiance of the Tables of the Law, which look so fair and smooth, but are so flawed and broken.”

This is only from the second paragraph and I’m already reminded why Dickens is so great. The prose is just brilliant in my eyes, and in mouth especially! I’ve been lately so invested in sensation novels for bachelor thesis that I had already forgotten there was such prose as Dickens’.

The version I’m reading has these great (original?) illustrations which makes the story even more intriguing.

I agree, Tommi; that first description of the church at night and the personification of the wind took my breath away.

It also reminded me very much of a passage from Dombey and Son, fresh in my mind due to a recent re-read:

"Hovering feebly round the church, and looking in, dawn moans and weeps for its short reign, and its tears trickle on the window-glass, and the trees against the church-wall bow their heads, and wring their many hands in sympathy. Night, growing pale before it, gradually fades out of the church, but lingers in the vaults below, and sits upon the coffins."

Back to The Chimes: I also enjoyed the humour present in the opening paragraph and until the foreshadowing (I assume it's foreshadowing) in the paragraph you've quoted, I was imagining I had a much lighter novel than "Carol" in my hands.

Pip wrote: "I agree, Tommi; that first description of the church at night and the personification of the wind took my breath away.

It also reminded me very much of a passage from Dombey and Son, ..."

It made me think of that passage too! Yesterday when I was reading the first chapter of “The Chimes”, suddenly I remember the description of the church where Florence's mother and brother were buried, the same where Edith and Mr. Dombey were married time afterwards. Of course, in this case, the light and darkness are the elements in motion, I think, not the wind.

Just reposting this from the second thread:


I've just finished the first quarter, but before going any further, I wanted to ask for advice. I'd originally decided that such a short novel would only require a "before reading" and an "after reading"thread, but maybe we would have a more engaged and engaging discussion if I divided it into its quarters?

I'll give it 24 hours or so and see what the reaction is.

I’d prefer seperate threads for the quarters.

As for the ending time, Dec 17, I think that might be even too far ahead for such a short story, what do you guys think? Maybe even three weeks would do. Though I’m not sure if it’s possible to change the time anyway.

Can I still join this group read?

Lariela wrote: "Can I still join this group read?"

Oh, yes, please do Lariela! Just give me half an hour to reorganise the discussion structure and then you are most welcome to jump in!

Sorry everyone, I've not organised this one very well.

I'm going to break the discussion into four parts to coincide with the Quarters of the novel. This thread will remain and will become Background Info plus First Quarter. All the threads will be active immediately as we're all at different stages.

I have read the whole book and I am confused as to what actually happened, may have happened, etc., and am not afraid to admit it.

It's told in a rather Baroque way -- even for Dickens. I am going to have to read it again to really see what is going on in the narrative. Luckily, it's short.

I'm enjoying some aspects, such as the rich description at the beginning of the first quarter. But the three alderman guys are so over the top that they're actually just annoying me. Probably, in part, because I've recently finished Hard Times and I'm sick of depthless characters.

Tommi wrote: "As for the ending time, Dec 17, I think that might be even too far ahead for such a short story, what do you guys think? Maybe even three weeks would ..."

I agree that a month is really stretching this out, Tommi. I think what has happened is that we've had two very short reads in a row and so time has accumulated. As this is something which so very rarely happens in readers' worlds, maybe we should be rejoicing!!

The next read won't start until Dec 17th, so I suggest we leave things as they are for now. It might mean the discussion is more disjointed than I personally would have liked, but it seems to make more sense at this stage than to tell everyone to finish by an earlier date and possibly scare off latecomers.

Gregory wrote: "I have read the whole book and I am confused as to what actually happened, may have happened, etc., and am not afraid to admit it.

It's told in a rather Baroque way -- even for Dickens. I am going..."

You're not the only one who had to go back and re-read Gregory! It is very Baroque from the Third Quarter on. Let us know what you think second time round.

Renee wrote: "I'm enjoying some aspects, such as the rich description at the beginning of the first quarter. But the three alderman guys are so over the top that they're actually just annoying me. Probably, in p..."

I agree Renee. They're practically caricatures of caricatures.

Quoting from Victorian Web, "Dickens directs readers' sympathies by making the working-class characters three-dimensional and central to the narrative whereas the middle- and upper-class characters remain flat or undeveloped."

Did you feel that Trotty, Meg, Richard et al were more rounded? Personally, I found Trotty quite a caricature too, though perhaps a more deeply-sought one.

I agree. Everyone seems pretty flat.Trotty has a shade more to him, because we see the affect of the Alderman's words on him as he goes to deliver his message. So, paternal affection, anger, fear, frustration, generosity... But not much else. It probably wouldn't frustrate me so much if the preceding holiday tale weren't A Christmas Carol, where we basically live in the villain's head. That's so much more interesting!

I've only just begun reading The Chimes, but have to comment on how wonderfully Dickens sets the scene in his writing. I feel quite chilled sitting on the step with Trotty while he eats his tripe (ugh) and listening to the harangue from Alderman Cute and his compatriots, Flier and Worthy. Don't you just love the names Dickens has for his characters!! I'm almost left as despondent as Trotty, Meg and Richard are by all that condemning.

Back soon.

Ella's Gran wrote: "I've only just begun reading The Chimes, but have to comment on how wonderfully Dickens sets the scene in his writing. I feel quite chilled sitting on the step with Trotty while he eats his tripe (..."

I had to think twice about the name Alderman Cute. I don't know if Victorian readers would have used the word cute in the way we use it today, and were perhaps more likely to have read A Cute, ie: acute, sharp. Either way, it's a fantastic name for a putter-down of men!

Pip wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "I've only just begun reading The Chimes, but have to comment on how wonderfully Dickens sets the scene in his writing. I feel quite chilled sitting on the step with Trotty while..."

So true, A. Cute.:) I think Dickens puts as much thought into his characters names as he does the story line, and some are very amusing. I find myself looking through the 'cast list' before beginning a Dickens book just to see the names he has chosen. Very clever and entertaining.

Renee wrote: "I'm enjoying some aspects, such as the rich description at the beginning of the first quarter. But the three alderman guys are so over the top that they're actually just annoying me. Probably, in p..."

Agree. I did not know whether to cry or laugh when I read that part about the meeting with the Alderman and the rest of that “decent” gentlemen. It makes me wonder what kind of people Dickens met with in his lifetime so that he could get inspired to create such characters. Really! Poor Trotty and poor Meg!

Pip wrote: I don't know if Victorian readers would have used the word cute in the way we use it today, and were perhaps more likely to have read A Cute, ie: acute, sharp.

Didn’t catch that while reading, nice! And very fitting indeed.

You can often recognize Dickens’ writing just by looking at the character names and a couple of other peculiarities, such as playful sentence structures and emphasized nouns beginning with uppercase letters (i.e. the quote my message #2). I like his style although sometimes it can get a little too heavy. In this kind of a short story it never bugs me anyway.

Pip wrote: "I agree, Tommi; that first description of the church at night and the personification of the wind took my breath away.

It also reminded me very much of a passage from Dombey and Son, ..."

I Definitly agree. I love his style, more than his plots; the way he creates his characters more than the things they do. I'm just at the beginning; I'll see later on

I was astonished about all those "old men" discussing and putting off the mariage!

Okay, I have my slate cleared a little and I'm ready to jump in!

As Ella's Gran has already said, Dickens does a wonderful job with the setting. Quite early on, he personifies the chimes, stating that they've been baptized long ago, makes a firm declaration of them being far from "speechless" and they are not subject to the wind. So we know that they are ancient (and probably have "seen" much from being around so long), strong, perhaps pure (re: baptism) and can speak. When I finished reading about them I immediately wondered if they would be the "main character". Perhaps the other characters are pale copies for a reason??? I guess, we'll see.

I do agree with Renee and others on their comments about Dickens' characters. Well, I do think they are developed, but they are often developed in the same way. I once tried to read Dickens works one after the other, but there were so many characters recognizable in other stories that I finally stopped. He definitely has his "stock" characters, which makes the read less pleasing, depending on how much focus there is on them. In a short story, I think this issue becomes more problematic.

Cleo wrote: "He definitely has his "stock" characters, which makes the read less pleasing, depending on how much focus there is on them. In a short story, I think this issue becomes more problematic."

That's interesting, Cleo, as I tend towards thinking the reverse in this particular short story. From the background reading it appears to be the consensus that Dickens is writing to strike a blow for the poor, so these are meant to be recognisable figures in society painted in broad strokes rather than individual characters. If it was a longer novel I think the stock people drag a long whereas in this novella I think they do their job.

I also wondered about whether stock characters work or not in shorter fiction. In some ways, I suppose it adds to the economy of expression if characters are immediately recognisable; on the other hand, I associate short stories with subtlety and there's not much of that here!! I don't think Dickens really "did" subtle, at least not in his earlier works.
Cleo, I love your analysis of the personification of the bells - I definitely think you're on to something ;-)

Pip wrote: "I also wondered about whether stock characters work or not in shorter fiction. In some ways, I suppose it adds to the economy of expression if characters are immediately recognisable; on the other ..."

I don't recall many short stories apart from Dickens that I've read in the Victorian period. So I've no idea if his style is reflective of the period or a personal thing? I suspect that if he tried to publish 'The Chimes' now most editors would return it saying it was too clunky and 'obvious'. But I think he creates worlds beautifully and there are many warm, shocking and atmospheric moments in this short work.

I've just started The Chimes. I loved the opening passages about the chimes, but once I reached the description and actions of Trotty, I find myself asking if I want to continue.

When a group of us read Dorothy Sayers's The Nine Tailors a few years ago, we found some wonderful videos of bells and bell ringing in England. I haven't looked yet to see if there is anything comparable for this story.

A short (~5min), not outstanding, video of places in London of regard to Dickens:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/vide...

Lily wrote: "I've just started The Chimes. I loved the opening passages about the chimes, but once I reached the description and actions of Trotty, I find myself asking if I want to continue."

I asked myself the same question Lily. I hope you continue, even if it's only so we can compare impressions at the end! It IS very short....

Thanks for the video link - I'll have a look at it tomorrow. I see it's Simon Callow. Have you read his biography of Dickens? I've had it on my to-read shelf for a while and keep putting it off because I feel it's something that would be interesting to read in company. I'll have to keep pressurising the Pickwickians!

@ Clari -- I'm sorry I've been so remiss at responding ..... I'm still trying to juggle one course with my readings, so I wasn't able to get back until now.

Clari wrote: "If it was a longer novel I think the stock people drag a long whereas in this novella I think they do their job...."

Oh, I see. So you think in this case that they're stock characters for a reason. Interesting ....... I'll have to think about that.

Don't misunderstand ...... I do like Dickens characters; in fact, often they are marvellous. But when they keep popping up in book after book after book, they lose their uniqueness ---- sort of like having a favourite ice cream flavour day after day ---- and, for me, some of their impact.

Like Lily and Pip, I was wondering if this was going to be a struggle to read but the Second Quarter picked up and I've started to enjoy it. Pip, those bells are certainly unique and I've been pondering them further but I'll save my comments for the Second Quarter thread. I'll try to post there later.

Cleo wrote: "@ Clari -- I'm sorry I've been so remiss at responding ..... I'm still trying to juggle one course with my readings, so I wasn't able to get back until now.

Clari wrote: "If it was a longer novel..."

Don't worry, Cleo, I hope your course is going well!

I know what you mean about the characters as I've heard other people mention the same thing. It's never been a problem I've picked up on (apart from occasionally like in Oliver Twist), generally I get wrapped up in the plots and he has such beautiful characters in his great novels like Great Expectations.

Here though, as Pip says, by using stock characters it allows an economy of words that suits the form. His contemporary readers would have known immediately who all the people represented and it allows him to focus on creating atmosphere and making his political and philosophical point.

I think I'd have to say that I understand the economy behind the use of stock characters, but here they were "too" stock. By this I mean that most of the characters were so flat that they actually hindered his point, turning what might have been a better story into preachy dross. Although beautifully descriptive, preachy dross.

The rich men are so singularly selfish and of evil intent that the reader must feel sorry for an author of such narrow mind. The poor characters are so pathetic and foolish that the reader is likely to feel sorry for them but perhaps not be genuine move. (Not wholly, because there are a few moments that strike a true chord (Trotty carrying the child through the streets while assuring her father she's lighter than a feather, was an example.)

Overall, I did not find the story successful as a story or a sermon. I did come away with the resonance of a few snatches of excellent description and the delightful Trotty as a single memorable character, who was put through an unfortunate ordeal by his creator for a " lesson" that is still
unclear.

Ella's Gran wrote: I feel quite chilled sitting on the step with Trotty while he eats his tripe (ugh) and listening to the harangue from Alderman Cute and his compatriots..."

The harangue from the Alderman is absolutely horrendous and obscene -- all the more so for its absolutely thoughtless (and, as we see, potentially ruinous) condescension: the treating as puppets people he views as "below" him.

They were, in fact, below him in the extrememly strict and hierarchical social organization of the Victorian period but, as Dickens seeks to demonstrate, I think, that is not an excuse, even within the Victorian system, for treating other people as objects.

If you are reading The Oxford World's Classics edition (A Christmas Carol and Other Christmas Books), Explanatory Note No. 14 to A Christmas Carol (the note is found on page 420 of the book) quotes Malthus, upon whose general ideas the Alderman's harangue is based.

Malthus's philosophy is unbelievably cruel -- although one must give him credit for being blunt and saying exactly what he thinks, no matter how morally reprehensible.

Not directly related to The Chimes (1844), but a reminder that the problems of hunger and poverty have not been solved in the 170 years since:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/20...

I found the characters in this first quarter to be beyond caricatures, almost cartoon-like, except for those poverty-stricken or borderline-poverty or in trouble with the authorities.

Found myself imagining what Dickens might do if writing about recent upheavals in the U.S., like Ferguson -- and wondering if there are writers who have been doing so that I have not seen.

Interesting point, Lily. If Dickens had been writing about Ferguson and other recent events, I would hope that he would always root for justice. One thing Dickens did not lack was his compassion for the poor and downtrodden.

Alderman Cute really is one of those Dickens figures I love to hate. The horror of power versus poverty comes across very potently.

Just a comment about the name Cute: here in Ireland it is sometimes used to describe someone who is wily and even maybe a little sly.

Thanks, Hilary! That makes so much more sense.

Sidebar: saw a page of the copy of Dicken's original manuscript for A Christmas Carol on Friday. Interesting, but not impressive, because I had expected the exhibit to be accompanied by drawings and certainly multiple pages with curator's notes. (Had seen such for some Jane Austen papers a few years ago, so had set my expectations.) Anyway, was still fun to see the handwriting and the relatively few corrections on this rapidly written piece.

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/...

"Every holiday season, the Morgan displays Charles Dickens's original manuscript of A Christmas Carol in Pierpont Morgan's historic Library."

Lily wrote: "Sidebar: saw a page of the copy of Dicken's original manuscript for A Christmas Carol on Friday. Interesting, but not impressive, because I had expected the exhibit to be accompanied b..."

It is very emotional to see original manuscripts. I'm glad the New Yorkers have a chance to appreciate this too!

You're welcome, Renee!

Pip wrote: "..I'm glad the New Yorkers have a chance to appreciate this too! ..."

It is neat that the manuscript is displayed each year. Belle Greene, Morgan's librarian, was apparently long responsible for overseeing the vast collection housed here. It is a library/museum we enjoy visiting when we aren't up to an overwhelming "big museum" day.

I'm glad that you have the chance to see the manuscript. Strange that it ended up in the U.S.

Hilary wrote: "I'm glad that you have the chance to see the manuscript. Strange that it ended up in the U.S."

No stranger than Egyptian mummies ending up in the British Museum - except the U.S. paid for their Dickens, whereas we Brits just robbed foreign royal graves ;-))

Very good point, Pip. I didn't know that the U.S. had paid for it. I was in the British Museum relatively recently and the thought did occur to me. Being Irish I like to distance myself from all of that, but I can't realistically do that as I live in the part of Ireland that is still part of the UK. I do have to say though that any country with the power would do the same thing and has done similarly. It doesn't make it right. Sad but true.

Hilary wrote: "...I do have to say though that any country with the power would do the same thing and has done similarly. It doesn't make it right. Sad but true. ..."

We were talking about this over one of the family holiday meals -- that balance of discovery and preservation wealth (regardless of how earned) has been able to achieve versus the exploitation that has often accompanied it. We included in our wanderings the archeological explorations often underwritten by moguls like Morgan or institutions like the Met or British Museums or, early on, some of the German Universities.

Each time I visit the Morgan Library, I fantasize what it would be like to don the white gloves necessary to even touch some of those precious documents, let alone to gain a scholar's privileges to study them. For the medieval documents on display, I realized what a tool digital capabilities have become for study, including magnification of details. (I have great respect for what libraries like the Brit are making available online.)

Hilary wrote: "Very good point, Pip. I didn't know that the U.S. had paid for it. I was in the British Museum relatively recently and the thought did occur to me. Being Irish I like to distance myself from all..."

Oh Hilary, if you only knew how long I dithered over whether to write "we Brits" or "the Brits", worrying that you might think "we" meant you too, rather than "me and everyone else who considers themselves British"!! I made the wrong decision, and I'm annoyed for appearing insensitive. Having lived both in Catalonia and in the Spanish Basque Country, I know how important even the smallest words can be.

Not in the least, Pip! You were right to say what you said. After all I hold both Irish and British passports. In forms where nationality is included I tend to write Irish/British. The rest of my immediate family write Irish unless, of course, they are travelling on a British passport. I lived in London many moons ago at the height of 'The Troubles' in N. Ireland. It wasn't an easy time to live there as there was suspicion everywhere. Sometimes the Irish jokes wore a bit thin, but then we are a people who love to laugh at ourselves! Looking back on it I can completely comprehend the suspicion. It wasn't unfounded, as we know.

Nowadays, things are very much changed. My husband works in London during the week and has met with only the loveliest of people. My son attends RADA in London and really has met friends for life. We visit him regularly to see him in various plays (it's his final year). Even if he doesn't get an acting job at the end of it, I shall be forever thankful to his teachers. He has been transformed as a person in ways that years of counselling could never have achieved.

We have some great English friends and relatives. In short, I love the English, Welsh and Scots. I do appreciate your sensitivity, Pip. We Irish are not always so sensitive to others' feelings. We are great at sensitivity towards our own feelings, suffering from the MOPE syndrome: 'Most Oppressed People Ever.' Mmmmm, I think that our Jewish, Arab, North Korean friends (and many more) might have something to say to that!!

Thanks Pip. I hope that you continue to enjoy Spain. It's such a beautiful country!