The Sword and Laser discussion

Anyone else reading the followups? Looks like we've got one main-sequence book, Summer Queen, and two featuring the policeman character BZ. I'm not particularly interested in him but greatly prefer publication order. So I picked that one up first.

I feel like this is a filler book. Not sure if that is due to the issues writing Vinge mentioned in the foreword to the Snow Queen or if she really felt it advanced the story.

There's a modest amount of new revelation about the Sibyls in this book, plus a universe-building development that probably could have been covered in three paragraphs in another book.

Firstly this book asks me to care about a succession / inheritance issue in a caste system. To paraphrase any of the many court shows on TV, "assumes facts not in evidence." I find the caste system particularly repugnant. Probably that was part of the point, but still, I found I just didn't care. Then there's the main character, BZ Gundhalinu. I found him to be a cardboard cutout in the first book and didn't need any more on him.

The first half of the book is equal parts Treasure of the Sierra Madre and Solaris. It's all gritty all the time. Then BZ gets to the place he's been searching and the story becomes...more gritty.

There's some decent development around the mysterious Fire Lake, things that seem mystical but are scientific. Then a "twist" near the end that was foreshadowed from the beginning. And then Vinge leaves open the possibility of a romantic reunion that I don't think anyone was clamoring for.

Anyhoo, now I'm up to date on anything I might have missed when starting Summer Queen. Vinge has opened with a quote from the Pink Floyd song "Brain Damage" from Dark Size of the Moon: "There's someone in my head, but it's not me." Excellent choice. I may be hearing that song, the album "Wish You Were Here" and "If" from Atom Heart Mother" in my head while I read the book.

I finished TSQ and liked it, but not enough to read any of the follow ups.

same here Andrew. liked it but not sure I want to read more. I mean Vinge already told us her universe's biggest secret. may do summer queen to find out more about Moon and Tiamat but the story John is mentioning about BZ holds no appeal to me.

Weird. About 5% of the way in there is take direct from the second book. Not sure if it's word for word but if it isn't, it's close. About ten pages worth. How much of that book will be repeated? It was 250 pages. The third book is about 630 so that would be a significant fraction if Vinge worked the whole thing in.

At the 10% mark, this book is moving along well. Lots of developments from the first book. Plus what seems to be good setup for future plot developments. Only thing I don't really get is (view spoiler)[ the idea that it would take a long time to develop technology given the access to knowledge that the Sibyls represent. Saw a similar concept in Rob Kroese's "Iron Dragon" trilogy where some time-lost people from the 23rd century struggle to create technology because they have to build the precedents from scratch. But Moon has a world behind her. It should go faster. (hide spoiler)]

Aaaand we are at the first blindingly obvious "twist". (view spoiler)[Turns out Moon's children have "cinnamon brown" skin. Say, Moon is about as pale as they get and Sparks a bit darker, but not cinnamon brown. Why, that almost seems like they would be BZ's kids.

Meanwhile in interstitials BZ is like the Lovinator, willing to do anything to reconnect with Moon. I'd like this plotline more if he were a father and torn between duty and love. He made love to the other Sibyl so that could have been a possibility. (hide spoiler)]

Looks like The Summer Queen doesn't have an Audible version, so I'll probably skip it. I'm curious what Moon does to save their technology, but I have too many other books in the queue

At about the 25% mark. There's some quality worldbuilding. Not sure I agree that Vinge already gave up her universe's most significant secret. There is a lot being foreshadowed. The book seems to follow in the footsteps of Foundation, with the desire to rebuild a much bigger interstellar civilization from the ruins of what's left.

At the same time, the book moves at a glacial pace. The Foundation trilogy was made up of shorts no more than novella length. The plots had to move. At 670 pages this book has time to develop its points, but is so slow doing so that I'm finding it a slog. There may be a Hamilton-style payoff to the high level of detail. I'm hoping so, because right now the tedium is getting to me.

When I first read The Snow Queen years ago, I went straight to reading The Summer Queen without knowing about the other two books. I like Summer Queen better and having gone back and read the other books, I don’t find them completely necessary. It’s more like they just fill in some back story. They did make me like BZ better though, which affected how I’ve felt about his character when rereading Snow Queen.

Yeah, there's good parts and strange parts to BZ. At about the 40% mark of the book (view spoiler)[his brothers show up at the power-people party and BZ is annoyed to see them because they are running the family estates. Yet at the end of the second book he had sufficient status to keep them away for the rest of their lives, and arranged that. So why are they suddenly in charge? Insufficiently explained.

Then he meets the artist and considering her obsession with the Gundhalini family, it seems very likely that a romance will follow. Except BZ is obsessed with Moon. Easy out for BZ's character?

The more I read the more I feel like BZ is a stand-in character, used to pull together plot developments needed to advance the story on Tiamat. He's never felt like a real person to me. (hide spoiler)]

Started and finished World's End this weekend. I did TSQ in audio, so I was somewhat surprised to see that "Beezzee's" name was literally BZ.

I liked it well enough. I found the style a quick read (also it was 254 pages so not particularly long anyway). (view spoiler)[The overall plot had some nice world building, and even BZ's guilt over his family/birthright issues wasn't so bad, but the Moon obsession bothered me. (hide spoiler)]

Finished Snow Queen EDIT I definitely meant Summer Queen. Some interesting elements, but overall I found it too slow. Partway through I read an article about the "Action Hero," with female examples being Ripley from Alien, Sarah Connor from The Terminator series, Wonder Woman, and so on. I wound up thinking of Moon as the Inaction Hero as she mostly worked through channels.

I think I may have chosen the wrong influences here. It's less Foundation and more Dune, with the Water of Life standing in for Spice.

(view spoiler)[Thematic elements include blended families, sexual identity, and the usual failure / redemption arc. It's all wrapped up in an overwhelming and overbearing colonialism, with the Hegemony placing its heavy boot on Tiamat no matter what the locals want.

Among the book's weaknesses was that so much of the book could have been solved by communication. In one major plot point, Moon knows what the Mers' purpose is, but can't tell anyone. Because, er, the Sibyl Mind won't let her. No reason given. One character dies because they don't take the simple precaution of wearing ropes while on a ledge.

The book builds inch by tediously slow inch to a bizarre climax. The Mers need to...perform system maintenance on the Sibyl Mind. Um. It would be funny in a less serious book, but in this one it just seems weird. All of this for a reboot? Yeah, no.

It's interesting to see the theological aspects. With the Sibyl Mind standing in for a God that can be both vengeful and beneficial, the obvious next role would be Jesus. There isn't a single sacrificial character, although Reede comes close. Moon is more like the Holy Spirit, inspiring and guiding. An unusual choice, one that works here.

The Moon / Gundalinu romance continues to make no sense. I just accept that he's driven by love for a woman he barely knew 20 years ago and gives up his entire life to be with her. That's even with his home planet at most weeks and perhaps days away. He could visit.

The end concludes with the Sibyl Mind offering to provide the location of one planet if the Hegemony behaves and stops the Mer hunts. But since Survey is in contact with other sibyls outside the Hegemony, why not just ask one of them to step outside and describe the stars? Then send a probe ship that way. Or, since it's made clear that the Old Empire fell in different ways and some of them still have the FTL drive, where are they? Surely they have star maps. If the Hegemony is under some kind of quarantine, that isn't made clear. If they aren't, we've got a version of the Fermi Paradox where they should have been found by now.

All in all the book moved much too slowly for me. It was all characterization and little movement. Even the actiony parts at the end held little action. There were worthwhile elements but not enough plot to hang them on. I'm glad to have finished, but the going was a slog. (hide spoiler)]

John (Taloni) wrote: "Finished Snow Queen. Some interesting elements, but overall I found it too slow. Partway through I read an article about the "Action Hero," with female examples being Ripley from Alien, Sarah Conno..."

Do you mean The Summer Queen?

Serendi wrote: "JDo you mean The Summer Queen?"

*squint* Yes! Yes I did. Pardon me while I go edit...

Did you read the book? I realize the month is done but I'm curious what other people thought, if they read it.

Halfway through The Snow Queen (did actually read it a year or two after it came out), probably not going further. Not sure why, but it leaves me with a feeling of distaste. My favorite part (when I gave up on the book and switched to the then-extant audiobook) was listening to how Flo Gibson (I think) said, repeatedly, (view spoiler)["Whatever you say, Tor." (hide spoiler)] Have never forgotten that.

If these ever get audiobook format, I would like to continue the series