Victorians! discussion

This thread is for discussing the whole novella, so beware: if you haven't completed the story yet, you are likely to find spoilers.

The novel's setting is contemporary and the 1840s (the "Hungry Forties") were a time of social and political unrest. Philip V Allingham, writing on The Victorian Web, talks of Dickens' "intention to use the second Christmas Book to strike a blow for the poor".
How successful do you think he has been in this?

I really enjoyed it. I actually haven't read it before, but it's easy to tell that it's a good old Charles Dickens story.
I think he was really successful with the ''strike a blow for the poor''. You see the social differences from the view of the ones down below.
My heart warmed at how kind Trotty is to strangers, and that he shares what little he has.
Then we have the more darker, supernatural part in the belltower where he is shown the visions of what horrible lives his loves ones will live, which was really sad, but I actually liked it.
But of course we get the happy ending (I think, lol).

This story is an important contribution to the literary works of the time (which I love, of course), and I don't know where we would have been today without Dickens' stories.

Just finished the first quarter. Toby/Trotty is adorable! The Alderman group seemed like a bunch of mean bullies, sucking all the joy out of life.

Renee wrote: "Just finished the first quarter. Toby/Trotty is adorable! The Alderman group seemed like a bunch of mean bullies, sucking all the joy out of life."

I've also finished the first quarter, but before going any further, I wanted to ask for advice. I'd originally decided that such a short novel would only require a "before reading" and an "after reading"thread, but maybe we would have a more engaged and engaging discussion if I divided it into its quarters?

I'll give it 24 hours or so and see what the reaction is.

I've already finished the novel as it was quite a quick read. I haven't commented yet as I let it 'settle' in my brain for a bit and others to catch up :)

Finished!
Overall, I'm disappointed. But I suspect it's because I'm so fond of A Christmas Carol. The language and description here are sumptuous. But the characters have no depth or nuance. And the "blow for the poor" misses the mark. It's too obviously preachy.

In CC, Dickens us more successful because he shows his audience the path to change. He has spirits show Scrooge a bleak future to affect his present. In this, we see a bleak future for no apparent reason. Trotty does not change, nor do the heartless characters who need a lesson. We get our happy ending simply because the young man does not take bad advice.

There were a few lovely scenes, such as the one with the tripe and the scene where Trotty hosts Will and his daughter. I'm glad to have read this for those, and, of course, for the undeniable power of Dickens's description. But, unlike A Christmas Carol, it certainly won't become something I revisit every year.

Disappointing! And pointless. I agree with Renee, a bleak future is shown for no apparent reason. In fact, it feels a little bit like Trotty just dreamt the whole thing, that's how much it affected anything.

A Christmas Carol is beloved and maybe Dickens was trying to simulate the formula of that story with less success in The Chimes.

I’m not really disappointed, perhaps a little bit. It’s true, I did not like this story as much as “A Christmas Carol”. But I did like it. Although, I’m not sure if Dickens succeeded in striking a blow for the poor. It’s more likely that he had stricken a blow against the heartless cruelty and vanity of stuck-up rich like Alderman.
As for the poor Trotty and the rest, I agree with Renee “a bleak future is shown for no apparent reason”. If there was any genuine change, (not a very clear one though), in one of the characters is that Trotty realized that his own fears and the poison he allowed himself to swallow in from Alderman’s words, were the worst threats to his family future. So in the end, the moral of the story is less stated and more implied. That last reflection of Dickens made me smile.
Also, the last part was almost confusing at some points. It was so fast, I had to re-read it in order to take in the change of scenario and even then, there remained some unanswered questions. I mean, most of the story is a “what if…” vision and suddenly bump! Back to reality! But what actually happened in that reality, that is one of my questions. I did not understand whether things did happened the way they did in the first quarter or there was a change. What about Richard? Well, I’m puzzled but contented.

I liked it, though I agree that it seemed to follow a definite 'formula' like that of A Christmas Carol. It had something compelling for me in its darkness, and I found myself staying up late, wrapped up in the horror of it. I will say that even though it's supposed to be one of the Christmas stories, and it was set on New Years Eve, it felt more like Halloween in its tone.

I liked the characters, especially Trotty. The scene in which the alderman finds tripe contemptible but eats it anyway was good. But overall, I did not like the book. It felt unfinished, and also too very shallow.

Bharathi wrote: "But overall, I did not like the book. It felt unfinished, and also very shallow..."

I think that about sums up my impressions too. Trotty was a great Dickensian character with a name that describes him perfectly (loved the name Mrs Chickenstalker as well!). The plot seems to be like the later film "A Wonderful Life" where Trotty is shown an existence without him in it, but the film does it so much better IMHO. Trotty was not on the verge of suicide and had already demonstrated he was a very kind and generous person, so didn't need to be taught to be so. So, for me, disappointing.

I found it very difficult to enjoy the book. The Chimes were unusually harsh on Trotty/Toby and for no good reason. I am almost tempted to state that while I read the portions that begin from Trotty's ascent into the steeple, it appears as if Dickens was narrating a psychedelic dream/trip that was fresh in his memory. I was glad to reach the end of this book.

I think we might be missing something about Trotty and his vision. With Scrooge in A Christmas Carol it is evident that he has a revelation which changes him because we know from the start he is BAD. Trotty is not a bad person himself, but from the beginning of the novel he undermines himself, his social class and specifically poor people who hit rock bottom and take what he sees as the cowardly way out.
I agree with many of you that it's a confusing novel and I also need to go back and check a few things. Quarters three and four seemed to meld into one and it took me a while to work out what was real and what was goblin-induced.

Judging from the comments, 'The Chimes' has not travelled so well across the centuries as Scrooge.

It seems to have achieved Dickens' aims at his time of writing as it appears to have been the subject of great debate. The upperclass characters each represent political ideals of the time and I think are simply and effectively pulled apart by the narrative. The suicide and infanticide of the desperate Meg reference a contemporary case where a woman killed her child but herself survived. All the bleakness is necessary to show that the rich people are not responsible and caring for the poor but in fact do the reverse and doom them to a life of heartache.

Personally, it still worked for me as from the first section I recognised the figures as people I know. Although the times have changed, I have friends who are lovely but are very harsh on poor people, saying that they deserve to be poor because they're lazy, condemn them for being selfish in having children etc.
So I still found it politically interesting and it made me think about the class system, the unrelenting hardness of people's lives, and how as a society we do or do not care for each other.

Clari wrote: "Judging from the comments, 'The Chimes' has not travelled so well across the centuries as Scrooge.

It seems to have achieved Dickens' aims at his time of writing as it appears to have been the sub..."

As we know, Dickens was always interested in commenting on the class system and the harshness of poverty. Something I am trying to puzzle out is if in his shorter fiction, such as The Chimes, Dickens seems harsher because the work is shorter, and thus his focus is more concentrated on a specific issue than it would be in a novel, or if, in a novel, because he has the time to really expand and drive his point(s) home to the reader we find Dickens' most powerful voice.

I have never been able to give myself a satisfactory answer. Having read The Chimes in one big gulp I'm tending to side with the novel as being his stronger voice. As much as I find A Christmas Carol (and to a much lesser extent The Chimes) good depictions of the struggles of the underclass, the sheer weight and length of his novels carry his themes better.

In terms of contrast and comparison, I find the Canadian writer Alice Munro much more powerful and convincing in her shortest fiction.

Peter wrote: "Clari wrote: "Judging from the comments, 'The Chimes' has not travelled so well across the centuries as Scrooge.

It seems to have achieved Dickens' aims at his time of writing as it appears to hav..."

I think that there are better short story writers than Dickens, although I'm not an expert as I've only read three of his. When I started 'The Chimes' I did immediately feel happy as if I was catching up with an old friend as I like the warmth of his style so much.

I didn't exactly find his style harsh, perhaps bleak? In the novels there is room for lots of diversions and comedy which are missing from 'The Chimes' which is maybe why it does feel harder.

I just read the Carol for the first time and it clicked instantly; then I reread some parts of The Chimes and somehow it got better in my eyes. I especially like the criticism of 'the good old times' as well as the criticism of the New Year that is supposedly to be so much better than the Old Year. Stick to the present and make good choices, that seems to be one of the messages here.

The last paragraphs begins:

"Had Trotty dreamed? Or, are his joys and sorrows, and the actors in them, but a dream; himself a dream; the teller of this tale a dreamer, waking but now?"

So, did Trotty actually fall from the bell tower or not? What were your impressions? I know that I had to read and re read, and still wasn't very clear on which parts of his involvement in the alternative versions of the future were real and which were ghostly, and I'm still not sure.

Perhaps Dickens' point is that it doesn't matter, and that the message is more important than the story. Personally, I find that rather unsatisfying, maybe because I expect more explicit redemption from Dickens.

imho -- should have ended up on the cutting room floor of Dickens's own writings from which he cut and pasted for his other things. A reminder that not everything a great writer produces is going to be great, but parts may be. Although I loved some of the descriptive passages, the story-line itself failed to hold together for me.

Lily wrote: "...A reminder that not everything a great writer produces is going to be great..."

Or remain in relevance in the same ways across time.

I appreciate Clari's points (@14): "The upperclass characters each represent political ideals of the time and I think are simply and effectively pulled apart by the narrative. The suicide and infanticide...reference a contemporary case where a woman killed her child but herself survived."

I was not familiar with that historical context/impact of the story -- at least the political aspects. (I had read of a possible precipitating incident w/mother and child.)

Was reading Evan Osnos's NBA winning Age of Ambition tonight and noted parallels of Chimes to some of the tales he was relating. Not that I think the modern parallels are limited to China.

http://www.biography.com/news/charles...

A link on Dickens that came up on my news feed from Google today.

I appreciated the writing, as I love Dickens. Unfortunately it felt hurried at the end with a push to tie up the loose ends.

Lily wrote: "http://www.biography.com/news/charles...

A link on Dickens that came up on my news feed from Google today."

Thanks for this interesting link, Lily! Once again, I feel a read of a Dickens biography or two is well overdue for me.

As we've come to the end of the official reading slot for The Chimes, I just wanted to thank everyone who's participated. Im afraid it wasn't one of my favourites (could you tell?!) but being involved in discussion with you all is always a joy.

The threads as always will stay open, so this comment doesn't have to be the last.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas, and may your New Years be happy, prosperous and goblin-free!

Haha Pip! Back at ya! (Not an Irish expression, just trying to fit in :D)