Victorians! discussion

Please use this thread to discuss the novel up to the end of the third quarter.

There were several poignant moments, but it's hard to see where this is going. And difficult, during this quarter, not to compare The Chimes to A Christmas Carol.

So here we get to the fantasy. It’s a new side of Dickens for me, I’m only familiar with his more ‘realistic’ works. At points the different future prospect scenes are confusing, and not really gripping. It’s all very bleak, that is certain.

Here the fairy air of Chrismass' Dickens. And as Tommi, I rather appreciate his realistic writings...

Tommi wrote: "So here we get to the fantasy. It’s a new side of Dickens for me, I’m only familiar with his more ‘realistic’ works. At points the different future prospect scenes are confusing, and not really gri..."

I am fairly certain that Dickens (and Wilkie Collins) both believed in ghostly and spiritual things, so for the author maybe he doesn't think he's writing fantasy.
I'm not sure how much author intent changes how the reader feels when they read it though?

I think it is supposed to be compared with 'A Christmas Carol'. It does feel like the next part in his writerly crusade for the poor, putting the working classes at the forefront of his tale this time to focus satirically on various upper classes of his time and the effect they have on people who they presume are too stupid to understand, or should be forever grateful for the crumbs they're thrown.

Oh, the clanging chimes of doom! I was half expecting Bono from U2 to appear up in the belfry screaming "Well, tonight thank god it's them instead of you!". (Band Aid reference - do they have that outside the UK?)

I enjoyed the description of the appearance of the goblins and spirits: they reminded me of a scene from The Lord of the Rings (in the Mines of Moria?) when they poured out from the bells.

" He saw them leaping, flying, dropping, pouring from the Bells without a pause. He saw them, round him on the ground; above him, in the air; clambering from him, by the ropes below; looking down upon him, from the massive iron-girded beams; peeping in upon him, through the chinks and loopholes in the walls; spreading away and away from him in enlarging circles, as the water ripples give way to a huge stone that suddenly comes plashing in among them."

And, yes, the similarities to A Christmas Carol were evident as the spirits forced Trotty to watch visions of an alternative life, the one he would live unless he began to feel more pity for those even more desperate than himself.

But I'm still unsure of why the Bells have picked on Trotty rather than Alderman Cute or Sir Joseph.

Pip wrote: "Oh, the clanging chimes of doom! I was half expecting Bono from U2 to appear up in the belfry screaming "Well, tonight thank god it's them instead of you!". (Band Aid reference - do they have that ..."

love the Bono reference, Pip! that made me laugh the thought of Bono suddenly singing at poor Trotty. I think Dickens has met Doctor Who on telly, so you never know it may happen one day!

On more literary matters do you think Tolkien was influenced by this story, are the scenes quite close?
Trotty is chosen as the bells are part of his life, every day him and his daughter listen to them and are charmed by them, so he is connected. If they tried to send a message to Cute or Sir Joseph those gentlemen probably wouldn't hear it as they are locked so deeply into their own world views.

Pip wrote: "Oh, the clanging chimes of doom! I was half expecting Bono from U2 to appear up in the belfry screaming "Well, tonight thank god it's them instead of you!". (Band Aid reference - do they have that ..."

on a different note it is at all possible to have the poetry section any closer to the top of the page, probably my bad but I can never find it!

Clari - re Tolkein, I have to admit that I wasn't being especially literary when I mentioned LOTR... I was thinking of a scene from the film when all these goblins (probably orcs) came dribbling down from the ceiling. I did start reading the trilogy, but ended up skipping so many not-very-interesting bits that I gave up. I'm an unashamed fan of the films though. And The Hobbit, which, contrarily, I HAVE read but couldn't get on with the films.

Re - the poetry section. You'll need to mention it to the moderators I think. Threads within folders move to the top of the folder when someone comments, but folders are static unless the moderators move them. I think.

Okay, now you guys have me thinking about Poe and the tintinnabulation of the bells, bells bells! I wonder how often they were actually rung in the day.

Well, I was having high hopes after the second quarter, but this one kind of lost me. I definitely picked up similarities between this and a Christmas Carol.

I keep waiting for some sort of transformation like Scrooge's in A Christmas Carol, and I guess this is it. The beginning of the book is an indictment against the rich but here, the spirits/bells focus on Trotty and the fact that he has lost (or is losing hope). In fact, they reprimand him for his lack of faith in humanity. It's an interesting tact. I was reminded of It's A Wonderful Life.

I also thought it of value to contrast Scrooge and Trotty. While I was reading this, I was thinking that it was fortunate that Trotty was such a simple and mild character, otherwise who in their right mind would stand around speaking with goblins, yet Scrooge was a different character entirely and still was forced to listen to the ghosts' censures and explanations. Then I wondered if it was a commentary, in that we are unable to really escape the realization of the injustices humans do to each other, yet we still have the power to listen and act, or to turn away and do nothing.

As for the chimes, I assume that they are echoing the voices of the spirits of the dead townspeople, that's why they have focussed on Trotty instead of on live people (he is dead, right? I didn't miss anything?). I'm not really sure though. In this quarter, Dickens started to confuse me a little.

Very interesting points, Cleo. They give me more to think about. :)
Yeah. This was definitely not as effective as CC.

I realize how different our modern lives are relative to bells as I read this -- at least in the U.S. We do have church bells in my local town, but too far away for me to hear them. I don't know their frequency, but I believe they are silenced at night. I don't recall bells in NYC with any repetition on a regular basis, although I suspect there are some.

One of the prohibitions placed on a new mosque was no calls for prayer. I haven't heard them, but I understand those are a part of the ambiance in many Muslim-predominant cities in other parts of the world.

Many of us are so accustomed to digital synchronized time-telling not more than a glance away -- on our wrists, our smartphones, our PCs....

Yes this was a strange custom. As you say, Lily, the mosque calls for prayer are predominant in countries where Islam is prevalent. There is a certain haunting sound to them; not in a bad way. It can have quite a hypnotic effect. I presume that in the States the call for prayer is not allowed as it is a secular state, or maybe that's not quite the phrase I'm struggling for.

In Ireland we have bells rung at weddings, though not always and unfortunately more often than not electronically. Sometimes there is a single repeated bell for a funeral. Then in Roman Catholic churches, particularly in the South of Ireland bells are rung at 6pm for the Angelis. (Sp?). This a time where Catholics are encouraged to meditate and pray.

Pip wrote: "Oh, the clanging chimes of doom! I was half expecting Bono from U2 to appear up in the belfry screaming "Well, tonight thank god it's them instead of you!". (Band Aid reference - do they have that outside the UK?)..."

Pip, My Dear: when it was released at Christmas of 1984 (I was in college) "Do They Know It's Christmas?" was one of the top selling, if not THE top selling, songs in the entire world. And that was well before things could go viral on the Internet. It has continued to be played on the radio every Christmas season since then, certainly here in the US. I doubt (although I could be wrong) there are very many people living in anything approaching a part of the developed world that would not recognize that Bono reference.

Affectionately,

Greg

Hilary wrote: "Yes this was a strange custom...."

It is my understanding that trains -- and the industrial revolution -- were very significant in changing human daily relationship to hourly and more finitely divided time -- differences we take for granted. On the other hand, some of us are probably less acutely aware of macro-changes, such as seasonal changes.

Lily wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Yes this was a strange custom...."

It is my understanding that trains -- and the industrial revolution -- were very significant in changing human daily relationship to hourly and mo..."

Absolutely, Lily. I think you can add the introduction of gas and then electric lighting into the equation too; suddenly, people could work (and be expected to work) through the night.