Shiny Reads discussion

I'm setting this up early. Feel free to introduce yourself!

HI im Wilma, from Lifegoofer :) here is the announcement video for this read a long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ZUK...
Please helpe me create a more sustainable plan... I have not gotten the book yet, and am slowly freaking out over how close it is to the start date. But enjoy everyone!

Yay! This is exciting! I love the random "let fate decide our reading destiny!" vibe we have going here!

Although Robert Heinlein does have some ideas in his books that I don't agree with, I do appreciate how his books can make you think. I hope you enjoy!

Even though this is my book choice, I don't own it! I just ordered it at my library. I COULD buy it on my e-reader for an inexpensive price, but how about we wait a bit for it to arrive? Here's my suggested reading schedule:

February 1 - 5 - Discussion of chapters 1-7
February 6 - 10 - Discussion of chapters 8-15
February 11-15 - Discussion of chapters 16 - 23
February 16 onward - Discussion of chapters 24-30

We might be frustrated reading it this slow, but it allows for us to have some busy days in real life and not fall behind. Plus, I've read before that taking longer breaks in a book has been scientifically proven to increase the enjoyment of it, because it builds suspense. You get to be excited for what's going to come next!

Hello I'm Jazz from ShinyThingsReviews. I'll be joining in for the read a long. I haven't read anything by this author so it should be a nice adventure. I might just get it on eBook but we shall see. Reading the book at this pace sounds good to me since I will be doing a readathon or two at the same time.

Hi my name is Naama (Moonbook) I haven't read any of the books yet unfortunately I can't join this month but next month I will tru and join and read

Welcome! The buddy read is just one book, (The Moon is a Harsh Mistress) and it starts in February. Maybe we’ll go on to the others another time though!

I’m a substitute teacher from New Brunswick Canada. Where are you from Moonbook?

I'm form Isreal

Cool, that’s four different countries for four different reading buddies!

I just wanted to let you know something that you may already know but computers were already been alive in 1966 (I think I didn't realized until I ask my dad)

Oh ya, So 1966 was four years after American president John F. Kennedy pledged to put Americans on the moon, but 3 years before it actually happened. I'm sure this was an exciting time for space exploration. I actually got to see some of the computers used in this time when I visited NASA this past summer. It's amazing what they were able to do with, what to us, seems very primitive technology.

I remember watching an interview with George R. R. Martin where he said he often dreamed about the moon as a kid, and wondered if people would ever go there. He said it never occurred to him that people would go there... and then stop going there. Sometimes it's sad to think about how space exploration seems to have stalled. Though I certainly understand there are pressing concerns that are closer to home.

Anyway, I just picked up my copy today, so it's time to dive in!

Okay, just finished the first section. A longer post will follow tomorrow, but for now, since this is my book, I do feel obligated to apologise for the blatant sexism!

I’ve read a few books by Heinlein where he imagined a more liberal attitude towards sex as being liberating for women. As cringy as this sexism is, I actually think that was what Heinlein was going for here. Of course, the way Wye is kissing people and acting like a male fantasy has not aged well in the last 54 years since this book was written. The way people whistle at Wye to let her know they approve of her appearance is even worse! Although it is worth noting that this doesn’t seem to be a gender specific thing. I noted one section where Manual said, “Wye paid me a long wistle.”Anyway, since this is my book and I’m the only man here, I apologise on behalf of my gender!

It would seem like Heinlein imagined the English language to change in the future. Or perhaps the way people talk on the moon is more of a regional dialect? That’s the case for the dialect in The Expanse books and TV series. Anyway, I got used to it fast enough, and I kinda liked it after a while. I can imagine “I scan it.” entering into our colloquial language. It reminds me of the word “shiny” from the TV show Firefly, for which this group is named.

I didn’t necessarily understand all that family line marriage stuff... but I understood enough to go ewww.

“The Rock” is a nickname for the prison Alcatraz. Get the pun?

The story slowed down significantly after they got to the hotel room and started discussing philosophy, history, and systems of government. Really, it didn’t feel like it went anywhere. It is worth noting that Manual, while clearly intelligent, is no where near as well read as his companions. He named the computer Mike after Mycroft. A character, “In a story written by doctor Watson before he founded IBM.” Ha! He also doesn’t know anything about the American revolution, but since he’s not American that’s not especially surprising.

I liked how Wye saw Mike as female. It's stupid that artificial intelligences are almost always referred to as male.

It’s interesting that Heinlein gives us a future where governments seem to be uniting, like the North American Directorate. In our time it feels like we’re diving more than uniting.

The whole situation the loonies are in reminds me of this old country song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUpTJ...

I really enjoy this only Mnnie and Mike kind of thier friendships (only p.63 17%)

Hello everyone! I just finished reading the first part. I have some thoughts... First off, I totally agree with everything you brought up
Mark. I also didn't understand the family situation but pretty sure that's incest. Generally, I really like Mike/Michelle and so far I find them the most likable and interesting character. Mannie seems a bit full of himself and its quite funny when everyone calls him "Man" all the time.

In the beginning, I was really put off by the sexism and kept aggressively highlighting all the problematic parts until I realized that it kind of has to be intentional when she later kind of teaches Michelle how to be a woman. Its a bit unnecessary I think for her to say thanks when someone whistles at her. So inappropriate. (and mark, no need to apologize for your entire gender... that's quite out of your control).

It's clear to me that this is the 60s version of 2075 but I don't completely buy it, in general. I don't think the future would look like this, I don't think the genders would treat each other this way, and I don't think they would talk that way (in that case, I find the expanse version much more believable).

Sometimes I find it hard to separate between when they are talking about Luna and when they are talking about earth. But I am very intrigued to see how this operation will go down. Not quite sure yet how taking down the Warden will start a revolution down on earth yet. But we'll see!

I'm actually pretty sure it isn't incest, more like just an open marriage that is open to a group of people only. I remember one part that said something along the lines of, "there was no relation so he married back into the family." Really, the idea of an open marriage of any sort didn't even exist in 1966, so you could give Heinlein props for predicting it, even if I find the idea quite distasteful.

Sometimes when reading these old books I feel like allowing for a bit more leeway regarding prejudices than I would in a modern book. As with reading Shakespeare, the appeal often comes from exposing yourself to a worldview that is different from our own. Before reading Othello and The Merchant of Venice for example, my professor talked about how these plays undermined the prejudices of the time. Really though, to me, both those plays did more to cement racism than undermine it. Hamlet was also quite sexist with regards to how easily Hamlet's mom was seduced and with regards to how easily Ophelia becomes nothing more than a nervous wreck. Still, all these plays contain interesting elements that make me feel, as well as teach me how people saw the world back then.

Let me know if anyone wants to hit the pause button at any time in our reading schedule!

Hello all! Finished the first bit last night. I decided to listen to it in audiobook and read a long in ebook when I can. The audiobook is quite well read. The reader has a flair for accents/dialects which is quite handy in this book. I will say that it does make the parts where they talk about philosophy, history, and systems of government more interesting. I find it interesting that when the reader reads a Manual he reads in an accent that sounds almost Eastern European to me in origin. Or perhaps it's a mixture of dialects since their seems to be such a mix of cultures on the moon.

I agree with everyone that this book has not particularly aged well. It for sure contains some problematic concepts. However, I decided right up front not to take any of it personally. Mostly because I don't personally view it as being mean spirited. Rather I view it as an author stating the ideas that where learned from the 1960s cultural background. Also I would classify this novel as leaning toward the pulp sci-fi sub-genre. Anytime something is pulp there are bound to be certain tropes or concepts that are played up for sensationalism. However, the stories are usually entertaining regardless. Thus, I can acknowledge the issues but not be too offended. Though I will say that Wyo basically putting on black makeup as a disguise was super cringe.

I don't think you need to apologize Mark dear. The point of the group is to discuss and this is a good point of discussion so no worries.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that understood line marriage enough to find it rather gross. Lol! Perhaps it is best that we don't understand it too well.

I quite like Mike/Michelle as well. The computer's longing for friendship is rather endearing. Mike makes the general meetings about planning a kick to listen to. Not only is Mike a fun character, but it's probably my favorite part of the world building.

Like Wilma I'm intrigued to see how the revolt plans go from here on out. I'm hoping for a good deal of adventure to be involved.

Well folks, It wasn't quite as much adventure as it could have been. I was hoping for some more action on the part of the revolt myself. Rather we just got Mike messing with the air and some second hand information about what happened while taking power.

Really, I found the "trial" section much more interesting, especially when considering the broader implications for this society. Like, of COURSE these people who struggle every day to survive are not going to have an institution like prison. Providing free air, shelter, food and water to a criminal would be absurd! A criminal in prison would be better off than the people who put him there. It's the same reason other cultures in history didn't often have it. If you take prison away, the only real deterrents to criminal activity are pain and death.

I was REALLY hoping that the character of Hazel would not be sexualized. However, much like punishment, it DOES make sense for the world these people live in. I'm Catholic, and Catholics go through the sacrament of confirmation, where they become adults in the eyes of the church, at age 13 or 14. This is a holdover from a time when this was adult age for everyone. By the same token, Jews still have bar mitzvahs at age 14. I know Anglicans sometimes do confirmation at 11 or 12. A lot of people who have not actually read Romeo and Juliet don't know that Juliet is a mere 13 when she is married. It makes sense for a world where one's livelihood depends on having as many kids as possible. Unlike these old Earth cultures though, these loonie girls seem to have significant power over their lives, which is quite refreshing. I still feel uncomfortable reading about it the way Heinlein describes it though.

Not really sure I understand why a character would actually have to physically go to Earth to deliver this declaration of independence.

Remember everyone, feel free to hit the pause button on our reading schedule any time!

Urgh!! I have really been struggling with the narration of this last part. Its like we are being narrated to rather than participating in the story and it’s making it incredibly difficult to engage in the story and care for what is happening. I find the “laws“ quite interesting and how they operate as a society but I am just not enjoying it. I also have no idea what the environment and setting really looks like. There is so much assumptions the reader has to make to be able to imagine what it looks like and if I cant see the story in my mind I cant connect with anything in the story even the characters. Its just my way of talking in books. So books like these are difficult for me. I also feel like I am missing out of a lot even though I am paying attention which bothers me a little.

I am going to finish the book but I don’t think this will end well for luna and the main characters. I found it interesting and cool how similar mike can become a human but wondering how far its going to go. But its quite clear how uneducated the citizens of luna are.

I agree with Wilma. This section of the book is full of lots of tell but not a great deal of show. It makes the reader not really feel like they are part of the action. It's a shame because there are several points where I think things could have been action packed, but the way they are described took the fun out of it. I feel like everything is being summarized by the narrator. I'm not sure if that is because the author wanted a shorter book, or because that is just how he writes. I think the only reason I haven't gotten frustrated with it yet is because the audiobook narrator is quite good.

Like Mark I found the trial bit the most interesting. Probably because the author actually let's us experience that bit instead of just describing it after the fact. Mark also makes some interesting points about the marrying age of women in the book. It does make a weird sort of sense considering the world building. Though, it is described in a way that is a bit unsettling to the modern reader. On the other hand it seems like women do have a lot of the power where all that is concerned which makes me feel better.

I'm still interested in seeing where things will go. It does indeed seem odd that in the future they would have to send someone to earth with their declaration of independence. I mean to me it seems so much easier and logical to have Mike with his imagery chat with earth. I guess we don't know that much about how government and tech works earth side in this book, so maybe that why they have to send someone.

Same with both of you, try to finsh it as well

Yea, I'm not in love with this book either. If it doesn't improve, want to pick a different one? One of y'all's suggestions this time. :)

It depends on what the others think. At this point I don't mind finishing the book. I mean I feel like the book is at least readable. However if the others want to change I'm okay with that too.

I’d rather just finish the book, even though i dont really enjoy it i am still curious about the ending.

Wilma wrote: "I’d rather just finish the book, even though i dont really enjoy it i am still curious about the ending."

Agree with you ,I'm like 65% in this book

I mispoke! I actually meant another book after this one. I definitely want to finish this.

This section was much better! If this keeps up I feel like I'll give three stars for some interesting world building.

Okay, so I understand better now why they had to send people. There would be a time delay to discuss from the moon and Mike has told them they need to do specific actions.

I AM liking the international flavor this book has now.

I AM liking that Heinlein seems to have a very good understanding of scientific and economic principles, and is able to walk the reader through them. (but maybe he doesn't andd I don't know enough to recognize his mistakes. :))

I like that we actually got to "see" some of the action in chapter 23, even if it was brief.

This kind of society described on the moon reminds me of the American wild west. There was a lack of law, but individual itizens would band together to maintain order when the need arose. The part where those prisoners had a plan to "take over" Lunar like they did an Earthside prison, but instead were killed quickly, made me chuckle. In reality though, I think this would REALLY suck if put into practice. You'd get idiots with superhero complexes shooting the wrong person either because they blamed the wrong person or because they don't know how to properly use a gun. One NEEDS specially trained police force with oversight to maintain anything approaching justice. I think Heinlein believes that because the consequences of crime on Luna is death, crime would be extremely rare. I think statistics show that the severity of punishment does very little to deter serious crimes, especially crimes of passion.

Heinlein really seems to be making a case here for extremely limited government. I'm not buying it. Canada wouldn't get universal healthcare for another two years after this book was written, but now that it's been over 50 years and we can look at how much it has benefited us and the other countries that were doing it already at the time this book was written. I guess Heinlein imagines a world where there is always work available, but in reality, there sometimes isn't. Also, who is looking after the infirm in this society? I get the sense they just die. Also, not everyone is suited for every kind of work. There's a part here that said women typically are not strong enough to handle drills, and there's other parts that say there's a portion of the population that can't read. Still, I ffind the arguments here interesting to consider, and these parts of the book are what's best about science fiction as a genre. That it can hold up a mirror to our own society and explore questions of philosophy.

The fact that this book is being narrated by Manual after the moon has achieved freedom does take away a bit of the tension, but I'm still excited to see how it plays out.

I definitely found this last part much more interesting, the whole business where they came to earth really sped up the story for me. I was also shocked by how educated and charismatic Prof and Man sounded during their diplomacy. I also found it quite cool how i could relate to both luna and terra. Luna is seen as this “fourth world country” in a sense and looked down on but for luna their life style is normal and they are fairly happy. While i was visiting israel i could see something similar happening there where i though the security was so strict and so political things could be so much better and while the people living there also see that, they think their life is normal. i thought the parallel was quite interesting even though its completely different situations.

I was also wondering why people on luna live longer. is it just because of gravity? seems a bit strange. any thoughts? also quite funny how he called the people on luna lunatics. Quite enjoyed that.

also liked this qoute:
“Is mixed-up place another way; they care about skin color - by making point of how they don’t care.” (271)
which is still quite relevant for todays society.

I also quite enjoyed how the title was worked into the text. The part about luna being a stern schoolmistress, and no one should be ashamed from the lessons learned.

Its starting to become apparent to me that they are trusting this machine with very human matters such as statistics that don’t seem to be so accurate and propaganda and what i’m thinking is that somehow this relationship they have with Mike is going to blow up. Because he is not human. At least thats what i feel would complete the story. Interested in hearing your thoughts!

I also didn’t understand that luna had reached freedom at the point in which Man is narrating until you, Mark, just said so... ops! I do agree that makes me less excited.

It still boring 4 me, but maybe it beause I just bought 7 books that I want to read more now

Hahah! I do that too! I have so many books i am passionate about but this chat is helping me stay on my feet. You can just read other books if you want ;)

Wilma wrote: "Hahah! I do that too! I have so many books i am passionate about but this chat is helping me stay on my feet. You can just read other books if you want ;)"
Yay,
Thanks for allow me that,:)

I also liked those quotes Wilma!

As for why people live longer on the moon, I assume it had something to do with the reduced gravity too. Maybe the hard physical labor is part of what keeps people healthier. Maybe some people live longer because the weaker ones just die when they first arrive. Really, I don't feel it's explained.

I don't remember exactly what parts led me to believe this is being narrated from a future where this whole business has been worked out. There's a few parts where Manual says something along the lines of, "Remember, this was years ago before so and so, which we have today."

I don't distrust Mike's motives, but now that you mention it you could be onto something about his lack of humanity being a significant limitation in how he figures the lunnies' chances. We're getting little hints tat he still doesn't really understand people.

Sorry I went off the grid with the conversation all. I had some work to do yesterday and couldn't write in when I wanted. :) Anyway I agree with everyone's thoughts. The book did indeed pick up in this latest section. I will honestly say that I did do a little of what I call ear scanning still while listening to the audiobook. However I didn't do that much because the conversations were interesting for the most part. Also there is the short bit of action which was much needed. I do think there was a lot of thought as least put into the world building particularly in this section. I appreciate that.

I also thought of the wild west in term of Luna Mark. I thought that was just me. Wilma I like all the quotes and thought that you listed. They make some great points. I feel you Naama on the multiple book front. I'm reading like 6 or 7 books at the same time. It works for me because when one book get slow another one is usually picking up. Haha!

The wild west parallel didn’t strike me but now that we are talking about it I definitely see what you mean.

Well, our journey's at an end, and I think at the end of it, I have to say I liked the good parts of this book more than I disliked the bad parts. The action kept up durring the climax, even if there still was a bit of that tell without showing we encountered earlier.

I can completely believe people would be stupid enough to go sightseeing at a place they were told would be bombed. Any time there's a crisis on the news it will draw crowds that the police need to cordon off. When I visited Yellowstone Park a few years ago, people risked their lives to get a selfie with a Bison, which are very dangerous.

Prof was likable enough, but his death didn't hit me as hard as Mike's. Mike was so innocent and childlike. Now, I think fictional wars that involve tragedy should give the reader a taste of that tragedy so it isn't something abstract, but it still bummed me out. On the other hand, it was satisfying to see the loonies winning.

Well there was no mistake on Mike's part after all. I was reading another goodreads friend's review that said this book could have benefited from a twist or two, which I think is a legitimate criticism.

Mike took the name Adam Selene. Maybe you already know this but in Greek mythology, Selene is the goddess of the Moon.

I was just looking back at some of your older videos Wilma. I thought you might like to know that you and Jazz are both dancers!

I totally agree that the book would have been better if everything wasn't so predictable and laid out. I feel like I have been reading this book for an entire month and I am happy it's over, to be honest. Although I find the concepts interesting, I just didn't enjoy the experience. I was also very hurt by Mike's death as well as Millie's in comparison to Prof's.

I was kind of shocked at the Loonies disregard for life. Especially animals and wildlife. It wasn't mentioned at all but I could imagine that if I lived on the moon I would really see it as something special or sacred because they probably don't have a lot if any pets or even an overgrown bush. So it kind of shook me when they were so aggressive with the bombing on earth. I can see how human life isn't valued as much considering their lifestyle and community choice but thinking about how they value their women because they are rare they would also value animals and nature but maybe they are just so disconnected from this reality it doesn't even strike them. Just a thought I had.

I ended up not liking Mannie such much towards the end, to be honest, I just felt like he was being cold. Although I am happy he and Mike got a moment before he died. (which I am still mad at btw).

I think this book, just wasn't my jam. Didn't know the thing about the name Selene, that's quite cool!

Also, cool that Jazz and I are both dancers. It's so rare to find people who share so many similar interests.

Heh, sorry for the poor choice! To be honest part of what led me to choose this book was in the interests of the diversity of eras, as well as the Hugo award it received. Hugos were also given out to Hyperion and Ender's Game, as well as a few others I liked.

Would you care to pick another one to get the bad taste out of your mouth? It doesn't have to be right away. You could just pick one this time.

I totally agree with both of you. I think this is certainly a case of a book having a good concept but falling short in terms of execution. It is also extremely color by numbers if you will. A plot twist really would have helped it along especially at the end. I also think this book overall could have used more dialogue.

I kind of found the end a bit boring. You would think bombings would be more exciting but the way is was described didn't quite make it so.

Is it bad that I'm more sad about Mike dying than I am about any of the human characters that died? I was super bummed about a computer's passing. While I liked Prof more than probably any other human in the book I was less sad about him going out.

All and all it wasn't the worst book I've ever read. It's what I like a to call a "it's not bad, but it's not good either" book. Lol! It did have a few points that I at least I found it interesting.

So cool that we are both dancers Wilma! You are right that you don't see many dancers on booktube. We must be kindred spirits. Thanks for letting us know Mark.

I'm down for another read. I think we should as a group pick a genre we want to read for the next book first. Then make choices based off of that.

Mark wrote: "Heh, sorry for the poor choice! To be honest part of what led me to choose this book was in the interests of the diversity of eras, as well as the Hugo award it received. Hugos were also given out ..."
It is ok,you choose some things that you thought we are going to ❤️ and agree with all of you

JazzRJ wrote: "I totally agree with both of you. I think this is certainly a case of a book having a good concept but falling short in terms of execution. It is also extremely color by numbers if you will. A plot..."
Same

Okay folks, the next book is Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Looks like Wilma will get the chance to meet the author at an upcoming convention! How does one week sound for a start date? March 5th.

Ok thanks

And Jazz or Moonbook can choose next time!

Want to do something like three chapters every three days? Possibly without posting something every section and still hitting the pause button at any point.

Looked up the book and it sounds cool. March 5th will work since I usually have been getting things in eBook for this group. I'm okay with the 3 chapters every three day idea.

OK ,I will try three chapters in every three days I hope they are short chapters so I can do it

Great! I will link this chat so new people can join if they want. I am happy you're all still here. It's going to be fun. I'll probably have to start on the 6th but that's completely fine.

Cool! We'll all start on the 6th. Let's move it to another thread for the new book. https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...