Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

As Andrea pointed out, the sand is running out of this year's hourglass. So, it's time to start thinking about setting up our Group Reading Challenges for 2020. (I know everyone's busy with the end of year holidays, but not coincidentally the new year starts right after. :)

(For those who haven't participated before, our Group Challenges let you set a reading goal for yourself to read a certain number of books that fit the criteria of that Challenge. It's a Science Fiction & Fantasy oriented complement to the Goodreads Annual Reading Challenge. Because each Challenge lets you set your own goal for the number of books you want to read, it's a form of self motivation, not a competition.)

For 2019 we had (have) thirteen year-long Challenges:

  The SF&F 2019 Reading Challenge
Set yourself a goal for reading Science Fiction and Fantasy books in 2019.
32 signed up; 23 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 BINGO Challenge
Read books matching squares on our group BINGO card. Fill in a line, or do the whole card.
20 signed up; 14 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Explorer Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SF&F books by authors you've never read before. Explore new worlds, find new favorites!
6 signed up; 6 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Female Author Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SF&F works by female authors.
10 signed up; 8 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Awards Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SF&F books which have won awards, such as the Hugo and Nebula, or any other award(s) you care to use.
4 signed up; 4 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Discussion Challenge
Set yourself a goal for reading Science Fiction and Fantasy selected by our group for discussion in 2019. Join the conversations!
4 signed up; 2 recorded progress. (Since we stopped having book discussions in July, this one was moot.)

  The SF&F 2019 Stand-Alone Novel Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read stand-alone SF&F novels.
5 signed up; 5 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Sub-genre Focus Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read novels in a specific sub-genre of science fiction or fantasy, such as "time travel", "cyberpunk", "space travel", "urban fantasy" or "stories about dragons" (Tell us which sub-genre you've chosen in your challenge's comment section.)
3 signed up; 3 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Short Story Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SciFi & Fantasy short stories, novelettes & novella.
5 signed up; 4 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Series Completist Challenge
Set yourself a goal to finish reading all works in SF&F series.
4 signed up; 3 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Graphic Novel Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SF&F Graphic Novels.
3 signed up; 2 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Historian Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read SF&F from its early days. Vern, Shelley, Wells or whoever. (Pick whatever date you want to define "early days" by using the comments.)
4 signed up; 4 recorded progress.

  The SF&F 2019 Geographic Setting Challenge
Set yourself a goal to read works set in different locales. (Define your chosen geography in the comments, e.g. Continents, Countries, States, Provinces, Cities, Planets...)
1 signed up; 1 recorded progress.

* You can see all our past & present SF&HF Group Challenges here.


So, any new ideas for 2020? Without any new suggestions, I'll probably just create the same 13 challenges as last year, because I have no imagination. Do people want something else? Some groups seem to do challenges such as books with a title starting with each letter of the alphabet (the goal presumably being 26 books, assuming it's in English language group.) Or Challenges to read books by authors in different states or countries.

Please share your thoughts below!

A related question, what would people like for the 2020 BINGO Challenge Card?

Our 2019 SF&F Reading BINGO Card was




Last year, some suggested squares were:

Space Opera
Epic Fantasy
Something featuring Dragons
Something featuring Aliens
Something featuring Angels, Demons, and/or Gods
Something featuring a Unicorn
Urban Fantasy (Fantasy in Modern World)
Military SF/F
Time Travel
Robots and/or AIs
Apocalyptic / Dystopian
Cyberpunk
Military SF/F
Steampunk
Bio-SciFi
Climate SF (CliFi)
Time Travel
Near Future
Gunpowder Fantasy
SF/F Mystery
SF/F Romance
Parallel/Alternate Worlds
Debut SF/F Novel*
Stand-alone Novel*
New-to-you-author*
Award Winning SF/F*
Genre-blender (both SF & Fantasy elements)
SF/F set in Non-Western Country or Culture
YA
SF&F Anthology*
Pre-20th Century SF/F*
Graphic SF/F Story*
Humor
Something published between 1900-1970 (or similar date)
Something published in the 21st century
Something published pre-1900
Something published pre-1918
Something published pre-1940
Something published pre-1950
Something published pre-2000
Something published pre-whatever
SF/F Translated from other than English
Set in a real, non-English-speaking country
Non-human protagonist
Female protagonist
Male protagonist
Female Author*
Male Author
LGBTQ Author
Author of Color
Made into a TV show or movie
By a favorite author
Social Sci-Fi
Hard Sci-Fi
High Fantasy
Alternative form - a poem, song, script, or essay

* = There's also a Group Challenge for that category

Since there's only 25 squares on the BINGO Card, not every one could be accommodated. (In 2020 I think I'll use the center square as a real category instead of "Free", just to allow one more category on the card.)

Which of last years should we keep?
Are there any more you'd like to add?
Which of those do you like?

(Remember the point is to inspire you to read something outside your regular choices.)

RE: Group challenges in general. I like the ones we have but am always open to something new

RE: Bingo. These are categories I think we should keep:

* Alternate form - It's a good push to read plays, radio plays, poetry, screenplays. But it also allows those doing the graphic novel challenge to read a GN.
* Anthology
* Award Winner
* Genre-blender
* New-To-You Author
* Standalone
* Some version of "Published before 1950" (or earlier)

Switch-ups or new categories we could consider:

* We could do something thematic, like "Optimistic SF/F"
* We could do a Media Tie-In category (books based on a show or video game as opposed to a book adapted into a movie/show)
* Alternate History/Historical Fantasy
* Maybe another one of the "punk" categories (nanopunk, etc.)
* Maybe LGBTQ author or "protagonist/author who is 50+ years old"
* Another "Book featuring a _____" to replace Aliens and Talking Animals
* Fantasy of Manners
* New Weird
* Group or Buddy Read book?

I agree with all of Angie's keepers except I would also keep "translated". Unless we swap the "author of colour" with "Asian author" at which point it would probably double up the translation category (I'm good with LGBTQ too though)

Another "Book featuring a _____" - definitely, in fantasy there are a lot of options (wizard, unicorn, fairy, etc) but in SF we already did alien and robot/AI...any other SF type "creature"? Maybe cyborg which is not quite a robot? I guess could also feature a thing like a "moon colony" or something.

Also agree on another "punk", no preference which one

High/Epic fantasy can be replaced with another fantasy form like Urban Fantasy.

Same with Space Opera or Hard SF (that hard one was hard since it was kind of subjective how hard it can really be, and every nearly hard SF book usually had something that wasn't mixed in)

I was going to argue against Angie's idea of a media-tie in, since novelizations of shows/movies tend to be terrible...but there are some major things like Star Wars or Star Trek where the novels are their own thing and those can be fun

Trying to think of other things we haven't done before...grimdark, new weird (heard of it but don't know what falls under it)...what's fantasy of manners like a fantasy in Jane Austen type books (more regency than victorian which keeps out out of the steampunk world)? Maybe a non-fiction book about an SF/F topic? And we didn't do YA/Middle Grade yet right?

Andrea, I totally had the Star Trek novels in mind when I suggested media tie-in. Or possibly a Doctor Who audio drama.

Andrea wrote: "Trying to think of other things we haven't done before...grimdark, new weird (heard of it but don't know what falls under it)...what's fantasy of manners like a fantasy in Jane Austen type books (more regency than victorian which keeps out out of the steampunk world)? "

From what I've read about Fantasy of Manners, it's kind of like what you said, but the time period/setting seems varied. Books that come up when I search for info on it include everything from Swordspoint to The Goblin Emperor to Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell to Tooth and Claw.

Here's a site that might have some ideas. It lists subgenres and examples:

http://www.cuebon.com/ewriters/genres... (for fantasy)

http://www.cuebon.com/ewriters/genres... (for sci-fi)

No, I don't think we've done YA/Middle Grade yet.

A SFF-related non-fiction book could be interesting.

Tooth and Claw came to mind, with their strict rules of manners though they differed from ours of course. I've got the Goblin Emperor sitting around waiting to be read, that could be an excuse to get to it then.

A couple of additional "Book featuring_____" ideas for sci-fi (and I'm just spitballing here...)

* Technology/science run amok
* Space stations
* Scientists
* Telepaths

Andrea, I'm not sure what New Weird is either, but Goodreads has a shelf for it. It seems to have a lot to do with China Mieville. I'm not sure I know anymore than I did before I looked at the shelf, lol.

Angie wrote: "Andrea, I'm not sure what New Weird is either"

Wonder if there is an "old weird" too? :) Lovecraft just crawled into my mind with that statement.

Andrea wrote: "Angie wrote: "Andrea, I'm not sure what New Weird is either"

Wonder if there is an "old weird" too? :) Lovecraft just crawled into my mind with that statement."

If anybody is Old Weird, it's Lovecraft. And funny you should mention that, because the Wikipedia page for New Weird lists him as an influence on New Weird.

I'm definitely in favour of the media tie-in and the alternate history/historical fantasy categories. My only comment about the LGBTQ author category is that often I wouldn't know (and really don't care). And I totally misinterpreted the Free square in the centre - I had assumed it meant an ebook that was free :)

Would media tie-in include novels based on gaming worlds, such as Warhammer or D&D? Or would that be a separate category?

Tony wrote: "Would media tie-in include novels based on gaming worlds, such as Warhammer or D&D? Or would that be a separate category?"

I imagine it would include gaming-related novels.

Tony wrote: "And I totally misinterpreted the Free square in the centre - I had assumed it meant an ebook that was free"

The free square is a standard BINGO concept

I was also thinking that a lot of those media tie-in ones could also be expand to include any shared worlds where multiple authors contribute, for example Martin's Wildcards. I've also seen tribute anthologies where authors contribute a short story in a certain world, say Valdemar or Witch World.

I see shared world or common theme anthologies as a different category to media / game tie-ins, with a bigger pool - although that might just be my exposure levels.

Tony wrote: "I totally misinterpreted the Free square in the centre - I had assumed it meant an ebook that was free :)..."

That's an interesting idea for a square, though. I often "buy" a few of books Randy regularly points out in his Free Kindle Books in the Space Opera category on Amazon posts (which aren't really just Space Opera, BTW), but more often than not I don't actually get around to reading them (much less finishing them.)

Ha! I think I know what 2020's center square should be. :)

It occurred to me to suggest SF/F that features books. Obvious easily solved with Jan's group read but there are other options like Neverending Story. Might be too restricted a category perhaps, children's fantasy would probably dominate.

Other ideas could be featuring some profession like teacher, doctor, engineer, etc. Each year could pick a different one.

So far I haven't spotted any comments on changing the Group Challenges except for the Bingo Card. So, unless someone chimes up, I'll repeat them next year, except dropping the "Geographical Setting" for lack of interest.

OK, I'm starting to draft the 2020 card based loosely on the comments above.

I'll keep the squares that people suggested keeping.


Angie wrote: "RE: Bingo. These are categories I think we should keep:
* Standalone..."

We didn't actually have a "Standalone" square in 2019, but I'll replace the "Complete Series" square with a Stand-alone novel square for 2020.

Angie wrote: "* Group or Buddy Read book? ..."
I like the idea, though I'll also note that means you can't fill the square in entirely by yourself. You'll need to recruit a buddy or get a Group read that appeals to you.

Angie wrote: "* Technology/science run amok ..."
I think I'll generalize this to "Tech or Magic Run Amok" to allow either genre. My thought is that a qualifying work should be about the Running Amok and immediate consequences, not just an aftermath. E.g., not Shannara just because WW-III created the setting.

Andrea wrote: "High/Epic fantasy can be replaced with another fantasy form like Urban Fantasy...."

Is "Urban Fantasy" distinct from "Fantasy in the Modern World". I suppose the latter is slightly more broad, since it includes suburban fantasy and rural fantasy... ;)


Angie wrote: "* Maybe another one of the "punk" categories (nanopunk, etc.)..."
Nanopunk seems a really small subgenre, but maybe combined with another, replacing "CliFi, Cyberpunk or VR." Most of these aren't' really "—punk" anymore, anyway. How about "Nano-tech or Bio-tech"?


Definitely add "Fantasy of Manners" and "Media Tie-in" since they provoked discussion.


G33z3r wrote: "Tony wrote: "I totally misinterpreted the Free square in the centre - I had assumed it meant an ebook that was free :)..."
That's an interesting idea for a square, though. I often "buy" a few of b..."

I'm going to make this the new center square, a different sort of Free.


Angie wrote: "* Another "Book featuring a _____" to replace Aliens and Talking Animals..."
Andrea wrote: "Another "Book featuring a _____" - definitely, in fantasy there are a lot of options (wizard, unicorn, fairy, etc) but in SF we already did alien and robot/AI...any other SF type "creature"? Maybe cyborg which is not quite a robot? I guess could also feature a thing like a "moon colony" or something...."

I'm going to go with slightly more vague "Featuring a Colony" rather than "moon colony" because it allows the possibility of a Fantasy as well. We can certainly have multiple of these. I'm thinking "Featuring a Soldier" as a backdoor to Military SF or Fantasy.
I think I'll keep "Non-human protagonist", partly because it took me quite awhile to find one this year and partly because it nicely allows both SF and Fantasy varieties. Any others? As someone pointed out, doesn't have to be a creature-type, could be more situation-oriented, e.g. "colony," "magic ring" or "engineer"



So, here's my First Draft submitted for further comment:


(larger)

Hmm, some cool ones in there. Now to look at that huge pile of stuff I pulled out for my "complete/make progress in series I already started" pile and see if I can map to these.

The free slot interesting, to increase the challenge I decided not to count a library book, because my taxes pay for that. But I do have a book a friend passed long to me, and a big bunch of free books from Tor I haven't gotten to yet, or there were those books the book fair must have figured wouldn't sell so they put them out for free. Definitely no lack of free books I can pick from!

Andrea wrote: "a big bunch of free books from Tor I haven't gotten to yet..."

These, and the huge number of free SF/F ebooks Randy keeps listing are what I thought of when Tony mentioned how he had interpreted the Free square.

I don't think libraries (physical or ebook) would count, since you don't get to keep the book for free, you have to give it back. Project Gutenberg would, I guess (also a good source for pre-1940).

Note I invented several squares of the "Book featuring ______" variety, including

• "School" (might overlap YA).
• "Immortality"
• "Telepathy/Mind Reading"
• "Colony"

All of those allow either SciFi or Fantasy possibilities. (I plucked them, not at all randomly, from Angie's cuebon links.)

I'm open to any and all changes if participants agree on something else.

I'm good with the card, some trickier ones so a good mix

Immortality is actually one of those trickier ones, if you focus on finding a book that focuses on the concept and it's consequences, I know of a few short stories that cover it well, but then I've already read those! If other people don't get to it first, I'll probably have to start a couple more recommendation threads to get ideas for some of those slots :) I look forward to what other suggestions come up in "magic runs amok" though I think I've already decided on reading the original Magician's Apprentice

I like these bingo categories a lot. I spent a chunk of last night writing book ideas for the prompts. A couple of them are definitely going be a challenge (which I like).

Also, question about the Completist Challenge: Do I finish various in-progress series, or do I pick a series and read the whole thing?

Angie wrote: "Also, question about the Completist Challenge: Do I finish various in-progress series, or do I pick a series and read the whole thing?"

As with all our Group Challenges, they are self-motivation tools, so you get to fill in the rules for yourself. For me, I shelve the last book in a series as counting toward the Completist Challenge, regardless of when I started the series.

G33z3r wrote: " Project Gutenberg would, I guess (also a good source for pre-1940)."

Project Gutenberg is my go-to site when I'm looking for older books. As well the the free e-books that are regularly offered on Amazon (and Google Play), there is a site called https://www.free-ebooks.net/ As a free member, they allow 5 downloads a month (pdf only), or you can join (it was $20 for lifetime membership) and get unlimited downloads in epub or mobi. The quality of stories is variable - there are a lot that really aren't very good, but I have found some good stories there.

I noticed I dropped the "Genre Blender" square, even though it was among the ones Angie & Andrea suggested keeping. So, I'm thinking of replacing either "School", "Immortality" or "Telepathy" with Genre-Blender before the card goes live. Any preference on which to drop?

Andrea wrote: "Immortality is actually one of those trickier ones, if you focus on finding a book that focuses on the concept and it's consequences, I know of a few short stories that cover it well, but then I've already read those!..."

Elizabeth Moon has a space opera series, Serrano/Suiza Legacies. Each book has a separate adventure, but underlying them all in its universe is growing tension from a new rejuvenation drug that promises a reasonable approximation of immortality. The need for more resources & territory for the growing population provokes wars. There's obvious class tension among those who can afford it and those who can't. And, most interesting, society begins to ossify; since no one dies, leaders never leave and there's no upward mobility for the next generations. It's interesting that none of the books are directly about those things, but they provide a background to all the "main" stories.

G33z3r wrote: "I noticed I dropped the "Genre Blender" square, even though it was among the ones Angie & Andrea suggested keeping. So, I'm thinking of replacing either "School", "Immortality" or "Telepathy" with ..."

I don't have a preference.

G33z3r wrote: "I noticed I dropped the "Genre Blender" square, even though it was among the ones Angie & Andrea suggested keeping. So, I'm thinking of replacing either "School", "Immortality" or "Telepathy" with ..."

No preference either, Immortality I think is the hardest one but it is a meant to be a challenge after all. Definitely hang onto whatever gets bumped out for next year!

Just created my shelves for the 2020 challenges! I think I'm doing most of them. Still trying to decide on a genre for the Sub-Genre Challenge and a cut-off date for the Historian Challenge.

Andrea, will we be having a bingo thread like the past two years? That has been extremely helpful to me. :)

Yep, I wasn't able to wait for Jan 1st so already put one up. I haven't started filling mine in yet

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...