The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion
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Dangerous Visions
Group Reads 2020
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January 2020 Group Read 2of2: "Dangerous Visions"
Do we discuss story-by-story?
I started this a few days ago. It's an impressing lot of storys. But also there's a lot of introducing by the editor, and he likes to talk a lot. I'm just at the 7th story and I skipped the one by PJ Farmer, of which the editor said it was the finest one. I hope to find out why the anthology is that special.
Oleksandr wrote: "Do we discuss story-by-story?"However you want, but I thought the ToC was a good starting point. Looking at the authors is interesting to me both for the authors I know & those I don't.
Mod
Basically, it was introducing American readers to a wider variety of authors and themes and styles than you would find in the American pulp magazines.
So, there are more European, female, black, gay, etc., authors, more experimental writing styles, more explorations of sexuality, more pessimism. Each story is unique. Probably nobody likes them all, but it is a wonderful variety.
I will not re-read the whole thing, but I'll revisit parts of it.
This collection introduced me to R.A. LAfferty and Samuel Delaney who became favorites in the late 70's, early 80's.The next collection, Again, Dangerous Visions, contained the Lafferty story "The Hole on the Corner"; which I still consider in the top five (or so) favorite short stories --period -- because of it's lunacy combined with a serious idea of the confusing possibilities of parallel universes. "Land of Great Horses" alludes to this, together with a more upfront presentation of Laffery's Native American background.
I have read both this collection and Again..., since the 70s, and I find them to be very indicative of the possibilities of sf in that pre-Star Wars time.
Nick wrote: "This collection introduced me to R.A. LAfferty and Samuel Delaney who became favorites in the late 70's, early 80's.The next collection, Again, Dangerous Visions, contained the Laff..."
The truth is, this collection and its follow-up and the first two Terry Carr "Best SF of the YEar" collections were my first introduction to all of these authors. So, to me, this collection is one of the defining collections of SF.
Embarrassingly, I find that I don't have this in my books. I'm sure I did at one time & remember many of the stories. Anyway, I've had to order it so I might not get to reading it for a while.
Anyone reading this? I just got past the Larry Niven story and now considering to not read all of the following stories. Quite a lot of what I read till now I found not really impressive, if I may say so. But then again, short stories are not my favourite. What I do like is that the collection contains such a great amount of well known authors.
I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive. What did you think of Niven's "Jigsaw Man"? It's part of his Known Space which is made up of both short stories & novels. Still to come is one of my favorite short stories "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?" by Theodore Sturgeon. I'd be interested in how people see it now when read for the first time. I read it in the early 70s & found no one would even discuss it due to the content.
That was an ok story, I liked his writing, more than the things happening in this story. I did not know of this Tales of Known Space: The Universe of Larry Niven, in fact I need to read Larry Niven anyway, hardly remembering reading only one of his books. I think I 'll go fast forward to Sturgeon now.
The introduction to such things as Niven's "Known Space" is perhaps the best thing about this book. I really like short stories, so my recommendations of the Beowulf Sheaffer stories in Neutron Star or the Gil Hamilton ones in The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton might not suit. Protector is a novel & I liked it a lot.
The only story I’m familiar with here is Philip K. Dick’s “Faith of Our Fathers” which is an excellent story. I read it in one of the PKD short story anthologies and it blew my mind. My thoughts are here (some spoilers). It’s the eleventh story.By the way, is there a second story by Dick in this volume —the very short and very weird “The Story to End All Stories”? All I could say about that one was “Yikes!”
Leo wrote: "Anyone reading this? "I am. I breezed thru introductions (old, 1967 and new, 2002) and first three stories all of which had interesting ideas, even if Robert Silverberg's one is a bit questionable in its accents. Now i'm bogged down with Riders of the Purple Wage for it is clearly assumes a native speaker and well versed in the US culture.
In the intros, Isaac Asimov wrote about an important role of John W. Campbell, Jr., who revolutionizing the SF genred with the simple requirement that science fiction writers stand firmly on the borderline between science and literature. Quote:
Pre-Campbell science fiction all too often fell into one of two classes. They were either no-science or they were all-science. The no-science stories were adventure stories in which a periodic word of Western jargon was erased and replaced with an equivalent word of space jargon. The writer could be innocent of scientific knowledge, for all he needed was a vocabulary of technical jargon which he could throw in indiscriminately.
I thought it is interesting bearing in mind the change of Campbell award name last year is how influential he was. It is possible that his approach was just in the spirit of times, because a similar shift happened in the 30s in Soviet SF, which was later labeled as 'close aim' in the sense that it ought to predict near future and be more scientific, unlike the 20s SF like We or Heart of a Dog, which leaned toward philosophy of social
Oleksandr wrote: "...Now i'm bogged down with Riders of the Purple Wage for it is clearly assumes a native speaker and well versed in the US culture...."I don't recall this story offhand, but Riders of the Purple Sage is a western (cowboy & indian) book that is often held up as the epitome of the genre, though not always in a good way. It's the mother of so many cliches. You can read it for free on Gutenberg.org here:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1300/...
Are you familiar with American Westerns? I'd guess Farmer was having fun with it in an SF setting, possibly lampooning it. He was a fan of ERB's Tarzan & also of Doc Savage & had fun with them, too. Lord Tyger is an updated version of Tarzan & he did some porn stuff with him & Doc Savage, I think. He also begged Vonnegut to let him write Venus on the Half-Shell which was originally published as "Kilgore Trout". There's no mention of Farmer in my PB edition.
I've read that the name is a rip-off from wiki page on the novella https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riders_...I saw several older Westerns but not many
Mod
I really enjoy David R. Bunch, who has two stories in here. They are both very short, very cynical, and, at least to me, very funny. I've read that every time a story by Bunch was published in the pulps, the editor would be flooded with letters asking that he never be published again! That makes me like him more!
Carcinoma Angels is a classic that you should definitely try. (It is also a brand of cigarettes in "Transmetropolitan".)
"Aye, and Gomorrah" is not my favorite Delaney, but it is a good taste of his style.
The Lafferty story is not one that I remember. But it is worthwhile to read at least one story by him to get a small taste of his weirdness.
Mod
That one feels very similar to his book Venus Plus X. In that book, some Earth people discover a paradise where everyone has gender equality (view spoiler). The humans are disgusted by this and speculate that if more humans knew about them, they'd all be exterminated, just simply because the idea is so disgusting to most humans. Humans do really have some severe hang-ups about sex....
Oleksandr wrote: "Leo wrote: "Anyone reading this? "I am. I breezed thru introductions (old, 1967 and new, 2002) and first three stories all of which had interesting ideas, even if Robert Silverberg'..."
I am at the same place as you were. I finished the introductions and "read" the first 3 stories. I enjoyed Asimov's introduction and being born in 1947 I concur with his paragraph:
"It is idle to suppose that the new will meet universal approval. Those who remember the old, and who find this memory inextricably intertwined with their own youths will mourn the past, of course."
I suppose that is why I have avoided reading this anthology for more than 50 years now. I read both of Ellison's intros (tirades?) and find him as annoying as ever although I do enjoy much of the SF he has written. Ellison managed to savage the same "mourners" that Asimov seemed to have compassion for in his statement above.
I enjoyed "Evensong" although the religious angle is probably much less "dangerous" today. "Flies" was just OK with it's look at human feelings through alien manipulation. While "The Day After the Day the Martians Came" may have been an insightful look at human prejudice as expressed through humor it seems very dated now. " Riders of the Purple Wage" is supposedly about a potential future based on trends of the 1960's but I couldn't get past the impenetrable language being used. I gave up after a few pages.
Mod
If it isn't working for you, skip it. This is a long collection. It would be weird if you enjoyed everything.
I recently got sucked into another long collection: The Weird: A Compendium of Strange and Dark Stories. It is over 1000 pages. And each page is as big as four pages in a normal book, so it is more like 4000 pages. Some great stuff in it, but there is no way I'm attempting to read the whole thing.
Ed wrote: "If it isn't working for you, skip it. This is a long collection. It would be weird if you enjoyed everything..."I'm a completist and this was Hugo nominee. I finished that story and it improves as it goes, with some shocking statements just for the kick of it I guess
I finished this great book and enjoyed it very much. Personally some stories are going to resonate with some an not all and that is how it should be for any great collection. What did surprise me was how well the collection has held up to now. While some of the introductions are a bit irritating, but they are heartfelt. I really enjoyed the afterword by the authors trying to give their thoughts. Here is something to think about, some of these famous writers were up and comers then and some of them are forgotten, except by the very best read of the genre.
I finished "The Malley System" and it seemed like a story concerning a new form of criminal rehabilitation and spent too much time in the unpleasant minds of some psychopaths. I thought "A Toy for Juliette" was a good take on the Jack the Ripper versus some pathological citizens of the future. But Ellison's sequel was little more than perverse voyeurism into the sick violent minds of a potential future world of Jack the Ripper wannebees. If he was making a point by contrasting them to the real Jack the Ripper I think I missed it. In the afterword Ellison claims to have become with the legend of Jack the Ripper. Maybe he should now become obsessed with "Father Knows Best" or "Leave it to Beaver" TV series reruns to get his brain rebalanced. Whoops, I just realized that "Leave it to Beaver" may urge Ellison to use that title to write a crude revisionist New Wave story.
I finished "The Night That All Time Broke Out" and it was an interesting idea but the ending fell flat for me. "The Man Who Went to the Moon" was also OK and had that pastoral style that I enjoy in Simak's writing but I'm not sure if it was concerned with new technology making us blasé or how a child's sense of wonder compares to that of an an adult.
Susan wrote: "The only story I’m familiar with here is Philip K. Dick’s “Faith of Our Fathers” which is an excellent story. I read it in one of the PKD short story anthologies and it blew my mind. My thoughts ar..."Like you I have read a lot of PDK's stuff but I tend to like the earlier stuff more than the later stuff influenced by drugs and some mental "confusion". The idea of God being a being embodying both good and evil (although evil seemed to predominate) and very interested in human interaction on a personal level was probably pushing the envelope in '67 but more run of the mill now. Of course that points to the fact that Dangerous Visions was the book that made it much easier for stories like this to be published.
Jim wrote: "I finished "The Malley System" and it seemed like a story concerning anew form of criminal rehabilitation spent too much time in the unpleasant minds of some psychopaths. I thought "A Toy for Juliette""I don't think that the Malley System could work: for people who enjoy killing (as opposed to accidental murderers) it will just be sweet memories, like a lot of us have about our past.
"A Toy for Juliette" was spoiled by introduction, from which we knew it was the Ripper in the future
Jim wrote: "I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive. What did you think of Niven's "Jigsaw Man"? It's part of his Known Space which is made up of both short stories & novels. Still to come is one of my favor..."
I had read a lot of Niven many years ago after a friend turned me onto Ringworld and the Gil Hamilton stories around 1980. Back then you picked SF novels based on friend's recommendations or reading the cover descriptions in a book store or library.
I believe "The Jigsaw Man" was Niven's first story about organlegging. This was a big leap because organ transplanting was still in it's infancy with only Kidney's being done prior to 1967 and the first liver transplant being done in 1967. While Niven's immoral nightmare hasn't arrived yet, organ trafficking is a profitable business today with people being kidnapped and murdered for their organs although the numbers are not well known.
Jim wrote: "Jim wrote: "While Niven's immoral nightmare hasn't arrived yet, organ trafficking is a profitable business today with people being kidnapped and murdered for their organs although the numbers are not well known.."In some poor villages in Moldova a significant percentage of inhabitants have one kidney, selling the other for small money (as far as prices of transplants go), usually for operations in Israel
Mod
I'd like to read that story!
Ellison can't write it, since he died in 2018.
Jim wrote: "Nobody tells me anything !!!!"Uh Jim....hate to break it to you, but...Harlan Ellison died in 2018.
Jim wrote: "Nobody tells me anything !!!!"LOL! I have trouble remembering such things, too.
Mod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Las...
In The City on the Edge of Forever Teleplay, Ellison narrated his part in my edition. I'll bet they had to wring out the microphone. He was really pissed about the way the script was handled, but I wasn't even able to listen to his long rant. It was just too ridiculous. I still recommend it as an audio. Hearing the various iterations of the scripts read, some by the original actors, was fantastic. I reviewed it here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
As much as Harlan Ellison could kvetch, he had a sense of humor about himself and was not impressed with himself. He had a very self-depreciating sense of humor. I think the best way of describing him was mercurial. He was the first to tell you he was genius, but also the first to note he was a snot too.
Jim wrote: "Still to come is one of my favorite short stories "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?" by Theodore Sturgeon. I'd be interested in how people see it now when read for the first time. I read it in the early 70s & found no one would even discuss it due to the content. "Well, after reading, my guess is still no one wants to discuss it.
Leo wrote: "Well, after reading, my guess is still no one wants to discuss it."I may after I get to it.
Leo wrote: "Well, after reading, my guess is still no one wants to discuss it."I'm guessing Sturgeon & Heinlein did while enjoying the sun at the nudist camp they both belonged to. The timing of this story & RAH's later works make reading The Door Into Summer rather creepy. Sturgeon wrote this shortly after The Pill was invented. Unwanted pregnancy was supposed to be a thing of the past & genetic testing was becoming a real possibility.
Most mammals have an aversion to incest. For instance, stallions chase their get out of the herd by the time they're 2 years old, but we don't consider ourselves part of the natural world. We've overcome or solved many issues due to technology. I find it interesting how deeply averse we are to this one & how well Sturgeon captured it.
Mod
And yet we are. Reading SF from the past has brought into focus just how quickly attitudes about human vs. animal have changed. Even just 100 years ago people mostly thought that animals were purely instinctual, with no intelligence and humans were all intelligence and no instinct.
Most educated people nowadays will admit that animals can learn and reason to some extent, with variations between species. And we are coming to admit that we still have instincts, too, although we can act against our instincts sometimes via reason and willpower. But some instincts, like the incest one, go deep.
Yesterday I've read Faith of Our Fathers • novelette by Philip K. Dick and this one is the first in the book I ain't sure I understood. Have anyone else reached it yet?
I have and understood most of it, though not always sure as non native speaker...There is a lot explained here: https://philipkdickreview.wordpress.c...
Just re-read "Gonna Roll the Bones" by Fritz Leiber. this is my favorite short story by him and i have read it at least 3 times over the last 50 years. It was still very good this time although it didn't have quite the same impact. It is a terrific combination of fantasy, horror and SF (I listed the genres in the order of how much I think the story falls in each category). This is the first time I noticed on a conscious level the use of the "n" word a couple of time. I sure that many younger peoples today will jump all over that. I am a little surprised by it's use since it didn't impact the story in any way. But Leiber does make wonderful use of the English language."The night was up-side-down deep among the frosty stars".
"... but then he noticed a faint glow, sick as the vampire lights but more feverish, and with it a jumping music, tiny at first as a jazz for jitterbugging ants".
"But by now the waves of pain had stopped running up his left arm and his nerves were like metal wrapped new guitar strings..."
I also realized this time that the title had two different meanings in the story and possibly three if you add the result of Joe's attack on the Big Gambler. This was the 12th story and so far the one I enjoyed the most.
Oleksandr wrote: "Yesterday I've read Faith of Our Fathers • novelette by Philip K. Dick and this one is the first in the book I ain't sure I understood. Have anyone else reached it yet?" For me this story can have two interpretations. It begins a view of the future controlled by bureaucratic authoritarianism that limits personal freedom and privacy under a form of Chinese style Communism. Then the meaning seems to split. As things become less real it can be looked at as allegory with the “Absolute Benefactor” being a metaphor for an all powerful, all consuming state. Or the "“Absolute Benefactor" can be looked at in a purely religious way as a metaphor for "God". But for PDK "God" is seen here as a being embodying both good and evil (although evil seemed to predominate) and very interested in human interaction on a personal and often sadistic level.
Leo wrote: "I have and understood most of it, though not always sure as non native speaker...There is a lot explained here: https://philipkdickreview.wordpress.c..."
Thanks for the link. I wasn't challenged by the language but by the idea. What we have is a systemically drugged society, but anti-drugs give what is quite like a hallucination. So, is the narrator reliable? Has he seen the truth behind the drugged hallucinations or was it all a trip?
Jim wrote: "But for PDK "God" is seen here as a being embodying both good and evil (although evil seemed to predominate) and very interested in human interaction on a personal and often sadistic level."Like in Heinlein interpretation of Job story (and other Old Testament stories) with not-so-kindly god I can see it. My question is was the narrator actually tripping when he saw the 'truth'?
Oleksandr wrote: "So, is the narrator reliable? Has he seen the truth behind the drugged hallucinations or was it all a trip?"I didn't question it was an anti-dosis. What would be the use of the story if it was a trip? Seems to me pkd wants to show us something that is hidden behind the images created by the drugs everybody is taking.
Oleksandr wrote: "Leo wrote: "I have and understood most of it, though not always sure as non native speaker...There is a lot explained here: https://philipkdickreview.wordpress.c......"
With PDK you never actually know for sure since he was so adept at blurring the lines between what is real and what isn't. You have the counter intuitive idea of taking a drug to see the "real" world that has been distorted by being fed a previous drug. While Tung Chien may not be seeing an totally realistic view of the world I think he does perceive the true nature of the “Absolute Benefactor” I think he does see it as a horrible, god-like evil entity that may or not be the actual "God" of our fathers.
Mod
In later years, it seems like he really believed a Gnostic-inspired idea that the Earth is controlled by Satan (or the Demiurge) and that God is prevented from acting here. He also believed that everything that happened after the year AD 70 is a false reality constructed by Satan to trick us and that when enough people realize this, we will see the real world again as it actually is.
At least, that is what I think he thought. He thoughts were confusing.
PKD also thought that Stanisław Lem was actually a front for the whole institute that actually wrote his novels. His view were peculiar.Back to the story and afterword: in the afterword PKD speaks about using LSD to have religious experiences. In the story the protagonist sees god after using some substance. I think that can be a trip
Just finished the two David Bunch stories. The intro promised a lot but I was disappointed with the stories.
The Evolution of Science Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Again, Dangerous Visions (other topics)Dangerous Visions (other topics)
Again, Dangerous Visions (other topics)
Dangerous Visions (other topics)
Dangerous Visions (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Fannie Flagg (other topics)Benjamin Spock (other topics)
Stanisław Lem (other topics)
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Table of Contents
• interior artwork by Diane Dillon and Leo Dillon
vii • Foreword 1-The Second Revolution • (1967) • essay by Isaac Asimov
xiii • Foreword 2-Harlan and I • (1967) • essay by Isaac Asimov
xix • Thirty-Two Soothsayers • (1967) • essay by Harlan Ellison
1 • Evensong • (1967) • short story by Lester del Rey
9 • Flies • (1967) • short story by Robert Silverberg
21 • The Day After the Day the Martians Came • (1967) • short story by Frederik Pohl (variant of The Day the Martians Came)
29 • Riders of the Purple Wage • (1967) • novella by Philip José Farmer
100 • The Malley System • (1967) • short story by Miriam Allen deFord
110 • A Toy for Juliette • short story by Robert Bloch
123 • The Prowler in the City at the Edge of the World • novelette by Harlan Ellison
149 • The Night That All Time Broke Out • short story by Brian W. Aldiss
162 • The Man Who Went to the Moon - Twice • (1967) • short story by Howard Rodman
173 • Faith of Our Fathers • novelette by Philip K. Dick
206 • The Jigsaw Man • [Known Space] • (1967) • short story by Larry Niven
221 • Gonna Roll the Bones • novelette by Fritz Leiber
244 • Lord Randy, My Son • (1967) • short story by Joe L. Hensley
260 • Eutopia • (1967) • novelette by Poul Anderson
282 • Incident in Moderan • [Moderan] • (1967) • short story by David R. Bunch
286 • The Escaping • (1967) • short story by David R. Bunch
291 • The Doll-House • (1967) • short story by James Cross
312 • Sex and/or Mr. Morrison • short story by Carol Emshwiller
323 • Shall the Dust Praise Thee? • (1967) • short story by Damon Knight
329 • If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister? • (1967) • novella by Theodore Sturgeon
372 • What Happened to Auguste Clarot? • (1967) • short story by Larry Eisenberg
378 • Ersatz • (1967) • short story by Henry Slesar
385 • Go, Go, Go, Said the Bird • (1967) • short story by Sonya Dorman
393 • The Happy Breed • short story by John Sladek [as by John T. Sladek]
413 • Encounter with a Hick • (1967) • short story by Jonathan Brand
419 • From the Government Printing Office • (1967) • short story by Kris Neville
427 • Land of the Great Horses • [Institute for Impure Science] • short story by R. A. Lafferty
438 • The Recognition • short story by J. G. Ballard
451 • Judas • (1967) • short story by John Brunner
461 • Test to Destruction • (1967) • novelette by Keith Laumer
486 • Carcinoma Angels • short story by Norman Spinrad
499 • Auto-da-Fé • (1967) • short story by Roger Zelazny
508 • Aye, and Gomorrah... • (1967) • short story by Samuel R. Delany