THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

December 2014 theme read - 70th anniversary of the Ardennes offensive - any book or books covering the 'Battle of the Bulge'.

An excellent work is Harold R. Winton's

I recommend "A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge" by Charles B. MacDonald, who was himself a junior infantry officer with the U.S. First Army at the time of the battle. I'm now reading this book.

My father's unit (segregated) was involved in the battle, providing support for the U.S. 87th Infantry Division. I remember him telling me in recent years how incredibly cold it was when they marched into Belgium that December in 1944, the worst winter Europe had experienced in 50 years.

KOMET wrote: "I recommend "A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge" by Charles B. MacDonald, who was himself a junior infantry officer with the U.S. First ..."

That's the book I am thinking of reading too.

A Time... is an excellent look at the battle

The one I just finished Bloody Roads to Germany: At Huertgen Forest and the Bulge--an American Soldier's Courageous Story of World War II (does count for this months read:)) is the story of one infantryman's Battle - The BotB part ends pretty quickly - he was captured on the afternoon of the 16th.

A really good first person account is "Seven Roads to Hell," by Donald Burgett. He was a paratrooper with the 506th PIR. He participated in all the 101st's campaigns from D-day to Berchtesgarden. He wrote about all the campaigns and I highly recommend all four of his books.

The Longest Winter by Alex Kershaw
Alamo In The Ardennes by John C. McManus
Fatal Crossroads by Danny S. Parker
Battle by John Toland
The Battered Bastards Of Bastogne by George Koskimaki
No Silent Night-The Christmas Battle For Bastogne by Leo Barron and Don Cygan

I recently purchased A Time For Trumpets but have not gotten around to reading it

Keith wrote: "A really good first person account is "Seven Roads to Hell," by Donald Burgett. He was a paratrooper with the 506th PIR. He participated in all the 101st's campaigns from D-day to Berchtesgarden. H..."

I'd second that Keith. I liked how he wrote about the Black artillery guys and how they worked well together.

Dr. Michael wrote: "The Longest Winter by Alex Kershaw
Alamo In The Ardennes by John C. McManus
Fatal Crossroads by Danny S. Parker
Battle by John Toland
The Battered Bastards Of Bastogne by George Koskimaki
No Silent..."

A good list there Dr. Michael.

My pick or this month's theme read is the latest book published on the battle by Peter Caddick-Adams. I probably won't be able to start till mid month but I am looking forward to it.

by Peter Caddick-Adams

I agree with KOMET's pick of A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge by Charles B MacDonald.
Definitely worth reading!

KOMET wrote: "I recommend "A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge" by Charles B. MacDonald, who was himself a junior infantry officer with the U.S. First ..."


I feel that Time of Trumpets has almost everything that the Official History by Hugh M. Cole has and is a tad easier to read. Good choice.

Interesting subject for a group read. Altough I mostly read books on the Battle of the Bulge when we visit the Ardennes in January (done so over the past two years). The atmosphere of winter in the woods, rolling hills and snow on the ground really adds to the immersion when reading about it.

I will keep track of this thread for some good suggestions.

Manray9 wrote: "KOMET wrote: "I recommend "A Time for Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge" by Charles B. MacDonald, who was himself a junior infantry officer with t..." I agree this is a great book!

Dr. Michael w "

Dr M, good to see you back in action.

This month's theme had me thinking of BoB
movies. here's a few i thought of, any
more out there ?

Battle of the Bulge (1965) of course !

A Midnight Clear (1992)

SlaughterHouse Five (1972)

BattleGround (1949)

Battle Ground is probably my favorite - I just love the final scene.

Another movie set in the BoB is a local indepent that I enjoyed - it's a little preachy

Saint and Soldiers (2003)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373283/?...

set against the massacre at Malmedy

The book I hope to read for this theme read, starting in a week or two is; Snow & Steel by Peter Craddick-Adams. If anyone is interested here are a few reviews on this book:

by Peter Caddick-Adams
Reviews:
"Caddick-Adams knows more about the Bulge than any other historian I have read... I admire his originality... Snow and Steel offers an authoritative narrative of the drama." - Max Hastings, The Sunday Times (UK)

"[Peter Caddick-Adams] has woven the threads together skillfully and written a book which analysis and narrative combine to provide a brilliant anatomy of a modern battle. Above all, and this is what makes the book enjoyable for the general reader as well as the military buff, Caddick-Adams explains the context of the battle and examines the strengths or weaknesses of the antagonists, their leaders, equipment, ideologies, economic resources, and intelligence systems." - The Times (UK)

"The Battle of the Bulge was the last gasp of Hitler's armed forces before inevitable defeat and one of the few pitched battles fought in the West. Caddick-Adams has marshalled a wealth of fascinating detail to show that Hitler's last gamble was a military fantasy while Eisenhower emerges from this account as one of the great strategists of the war. This will surely become the standard history of this climactic confrontation in the West." - Richard Overy

"Peter Caddick-Adams is fast emerging as one of our most authoritative and exciting military historians... Combining deft analysis with anecdote, he never loses sight of the immense human drama, and his empathy for the many combatants and civilians caught up in this brutal battle is profoundly moving. This is a rich, thought-provoking and surely definitive account of one of the most iconic battles of the Second World War." - James Holland, author of 'The Battle of Britain' and 'Dam Busters'.

"Peter Caddick-Adams's Snow and Steel offers readers, at long last, the entirety of the German Ardennes offensive of 1944-5, popularly known as the Battle of the Bulge. Until now the story of the Bulge has been recounted unevenly, in bits and pieces and with emphasis upon pockets of heroism and horror. This book's singular achievement is to offer a balanced view of the strategy and tactics of both sides. Writing with authority yet wearing his scholarship lightly, Caddick-Adams offers an encyclopedic and immersive narrative of the battle that was, in Churchill's words, 'an ever-famous American victory.'" - Andrew Roberts, author of 'The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War', and 'Napoleon: A Life'.

"Snow and Steel tells the story of the Battle of the Bulge from foxhole to the Fuhrer's Command Headquarters, leaving the reader with a new appreciation for the largest battle America fought in the Second World War. With a soldier's insight into the flow and fog of battle, Snow and Steel demonstrates why Peter Caddick-Adams rates highly among the new generation of battlefield historians. A must-have and must-read for students of the European War." - LTC (Ret) Roger Cirillo, Association of the US Army Institute of Land Warfare

"Caddick-Adams is probably the best military historian of his generation, and Snow and Steel is the definitive account of one of the key punctuation marks in history, when the western Allies thwarted Germany's last attempt to turn the tide of the Second World War." - Chris Bellamy, University of Greenwich

"Snow and Steel is a fresh re-telling of a widely known story. Throughout the narrative Peter Caddick-Adams transitions smoothly back and forth between the highest strategic and operational echelons, down to the level of the frontline GI and Landser. The result is a rich tapestry of the single largest battle in American history." --Maj. Gen. David T. Zabecki, U.S. Army (Ret'd)

"Like its predecessor (Monte Cassino: Ten Armies in Hell), Snow and Steel brings a fresh and innovative approach to military history-so long restricted to the dry study of generals and operations. By exploring the cultures and motivations of the participant armies, as well as by excavating veterans' accounts of surviving the sharp end, Caddick-Adams suffuses life, spark, and dynamism into his new narrative of the incredible story of the Battle of the Bulge." - Alexander Rose, author of 'Washington's Spies' (now an AMC series)

"A gripping account of one of the most important campaigns of the last year of World War Two, Snow and Steel deserves attention from anyone interested in the war." - Jeremy Black, author of 'War and Technology'


"Caddick-Adams is a master at integrating narrative and analysis, and at balancing personal experiences with descriptions of operations. Broadly conceived, comprehensively researched, clearly written, Snow and Steel stands at the forefront among accounts of the Battle of the Bulge." - Dennis Showalter, Colorado College

"Snow and Steel highlights very effectively a chapter in American military history that has real resonance today. We all have something to learn from reflecting on it." - General Sir Nick Parker, former Commander, UK Land Forces

"Caddick-Adams knows the battlefield well and tells a gripping tale based on the first hand experiences of those who fought across its snowy landscape, pricking a few myths along the way and re-assessing the fighting reputation of some of the commanders involved." - Tim Newark, author of 'The Mafia at War'.

"Most military historians write about command and control, but very few have such powerful command and control themselves to drive such a comprehensive and excellent narrative. This is a complex tale, told in an utterly compelling fashion." - Paul Moorcraft, Director of the Centre for Foreign Policy Analysis, London

"Packed with fascinating first hand accounts, authoritative analysis and compelling personal vignettes, Snow and Steel is hard to put down. Peter Caddick-Adams, a leading Bulge scholar, has walked the battlefields of the Ardennes and studied the campaign for decades. Only an author of his vast experience could produce such a work of importance and excellence. Even if you have read many books on the Bulge, you will learn more from this one." - John C. McManus, author of 'Alamo in the Ardennes: The Untold Story of the American Soldiers who Made the Defense of Bastogne Possible'.

"Superb: an impeccably researched, finely judged reappraisal of a pivotal World War Two battle that still resonates today." - Saul David, author of 'All the King's Men: The British Soldier from the Restoration to Waterloo'.

"Peter Caddick-Adam's depth and level of analysis of Adolf Hitler's last great offensive, in a desperate gamble to alter the course of World War II is impressive. Packed with fascinating detail, Snow and Steel captures the perspectives of both sides in the epic Battle of the Bulge in a manner that hooks the reader into the unfolding drama. A riveting account, his book spans the generalship of the opposing armies and their grand sweeps of strategy down to the experiences of the frontline soldier at the sharp end. The 1944 German Ardennes offensive has been covered many times before, but this is a classic and gripping examination that stands out." - Colonel Stuart Tootal

"Caddick-Adams casts a wide net, delving deep into the background, conduct, consequences and even historiography of this iconic battle, so even experienced military buffs will find plenty to ponder." - Kirkus Reviews

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The book I hope to read for this theme read, starting in a week or two is; Snow & Steel by Peter Craddick-Adams. If anyone is interested here are a few reviews on this book:

[bookcover:Snow & Stee..."

I like the description of the book as "a fresh re-telling of a widely known story." That's needed. I'll read it.

Just from my flicking though it Manray9 it looks very in depth and I am looking forward to reading it as soon as I can.

Try the longest winter

Going to read one on a lightly covered aspect:

To Win The Winter Sky: The Air War Over The Ardennes, 1944 1945

Good selection Mike. I know you have heard this before but I do have a copy, just haven't read it yet! I'll be interested to hear your views on the book when you get a chance to read it.

What? You have an unread copy? I can't believe it....:)

I know, I know, and the sad thing is I purchased my copy in March 1998! I need to get around to reading it soon so maybe you might give me the kick start I need :)

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The book I hope to read for this theme read, starting in a week or two is; Snow & Steel by Peter Craddick-Adams. If anyone is interested here are a few reviews on this book:

[bookcover:Snow & Stee..."

You just made me add another TBR, but honest to God, I don't know where I shall find the time to read all these great books.

Luckily we all share that problem :)

OK, have started my book on the Battle of the Bulge. In the Introduction the author mentions the actions of PFC Melvin E. Biddle during the fighting at the town of Hotton:

Medal of Honor Citation:

The President of the United States of America, in the name of Congress, takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Private First Class Melvin Earl Biddle, United States Army, for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action against the enemy near Soy, Belgium, on 23 and 24 December 1944, while serving with Company B, 1st Battalion, 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 13th Airborne Division. Serving as lead scout during an attack to relieve the enemy-encircled town of Hotton, Private First Class Biddle aggressively penetrated a densely wooded area, advanced 400 yards until he came within range of intense enemy rifle fire, and within 20 yards of enemy positions killed three snipers with unerring marksmanship. Courageously continuing his advance an additional 200 yards, he discovered a hostile machinegun position and dispatched its two occupants. He then located the approximate position of a well-concealed enemy machinegun nest, and crawling forward threw hand grenades which killed two Germans and fatally wounded a third. After signaling his company to advance, he entered a determined line of enemy defense, coolly and deliberately shifted his position, and shot three more enemy soldiers. Undaunted by enemy fire, he crawled within 20 yards of a machinegun nest, tossed his last hand grenade into the position, and after the explosion charged the emplacement firing his rifle. When night fell, he scouted enemy positions alone for several hours and returned with valuable information which enabled our attacking infantry and armor to knock out two enemy tanks. At daybreak he again led the advance and, when flanking elements were pinned down by enemy fire, without hesitation made his way toward a hostile machinegun position and from a distance of 50 yards killed the crew and two supporting riflemen. The remainder of the enemy, finding themselves without automatic weapon support, fled panic stricken. Private First Class Biddle's intrepid courage and superb daring during his 20-hour action enabled his battalion to break the enemy grasp on Hotton with a minimum of casualties.

My December read is Robert Merriam's "Dark December," published in 1947 and out now in a new ebook edition. This looks to be pretty much the original book on the Bulge, and I think got good reviews. I update y'all when I get into it a bit.

Keep us posted Robert, it sounds like an interesting book.


by Robert E. Merriam

The author of my current book has referred to two books that may be of interest to other group members:


by Georg Grossjohann

by Heinz Gunther Guderian

Interesting details from my book:

"Nevertheless, the Wehrmacht's very backwardness constituted a drain on its raw materials: throughout the war its horses and mules (the peak strength in 1943-4 was 1.2 million equines) - it would use more than 50,000 in the Ardennes - required reshoeing with 4.8 million horseshoes ideally every six to seven weeks, the equivalent of 5,000 tons of iron a month or 60,000 tons a year."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting details from my book:

"Nevertheless, the Wehrmacht's very backwardness constituted a drain on its raw materials: throughout the war its horses and mules (the peak strength in 1943-4 wa..."

That's the type of info you never think about. I guess fodder was more available than oil?

I suppose by 1944 fodder was more easily available than oil for the German forces :)

Some more interest figures, this time in relation to US logistics:

"By tonnage, artillery ammunition comprised the largest percentage of trucked logistics: in operations around Aachen, US First Army fired 300,000 rounds of 105mm shells (or two Liberty shiploads), and this in a month when their activities were constrained by a shortfall of ammunition. Firepower grew to First World War proportions, with six million shells and two million mortar rounds fired in October."

The Germans never motorized even half of their artillery in WW2. Only the British and Americans (and I'm no too sure about them) started the war with all of their guns pulled by motor vehicles.

RE: US First Army and artillery shells-- I've read, but cannot recall the source-- that some of that army's shortfall was self-inflicted. Before the August dash across France, the army's supply or ordnance staff stashed shells in lots of places, and then forgot about them during the dash, and didn't put much effort into recovering them when the front congealed in September.

Interesting story about the artillery shells Lee, I wonder if they ever went back to look for the caches?

I liked this statement from Rundstedt in regard to Hitler's plan to reach Antwerp:

"It was a nonsensical operation, and the most stupid part of it was the setting of Antwerp as the target. If we had reached the Meuse, we should have got down on our knees and thanked God - let alone try to reach Antwerp."

The author of my current book mentions Major Tony Clunn, who was the author of; In Quest of the Lost Legions, in which he details his search for the battlefield of Varus' lost legions in the Teutoburger Wald in AD 9.


by Tony Clunn

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting details from my book:

"Nevertheless, the Wehrmacht's very backwardness constituted a drain on its raw materials: throughout the war its horses and mules (the peak strength in 1943-4 wa..."

A friend of mine wrote an Article on the German Army in regards to its use of Horses and it's means of gathering vehicles to transport the army. He had two lines that stuck with me from that article.
'Clippty Clop the Blitzkrieg Cometh'
'The Wehrmacht in WWII was the largest example of Grand Theft Auto in History.'

While both of those statements are humorous they do relate to an underlying weakness in the German Army. One just about ten percent of the Wehrmacht was motorized. That includes the SS units that served alongside. Speed of response was going to be a local thing, not strategic or even tactical in most regards.

Due to an inability to keep up even modest production schedules for replacements or a higher level of maintenance to return vehicles to units the Germans resorted to acquiring them from occupied countries. The type of vehicle didn't matter, tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, cars anything with wheels was pretty much fair game. This only increased the issue of maintenance and the log jam of spare parts.

A simple Comparison shows just what a night mare they might be looking at.
The US Army Armored Division might have the following armored vehicles.
Shermans,
Stuarts
M8 Armored Cars
Halftracks
SP 105s
SP 155s
So these six different vehicle types would all have their own maintence requirements in regards to spare parts and skills needed to repair said vehicles. They also have differences in ammo requirements.

A German division might have the following:
PzIIs (late war these would be command vehicles.
Pz IIIs (could be more than one type
Pz IVs (again could be more than one type)
Pz V
Pz VI a
Halftracks (generally two or three different types
Scout vehicles (again generally more than one type)
SP Artillery, (could be up to four or five different types, not just wespe and hummels, both of which were pretty rare, but marders and the like to include the Stugs and Hetzers)
Trucks (even though I forget to mention these in the US, which would be two or three if you include the jeep, the Germans could have as many as a dozen different types of trucks, to include captures American models.)

As you can see the issue of spare parts would be a nightmare right from the start, same with Ammo and the Germans weren't above using captured armor. A OB for 2nd SS Panzer during Kursk shows them with a T34 on the roles.

I liked the quotes from your friend:


"Clippty Clop the Blitzkrieg Cometh" and "The Wehrmacht in WWII was the largest example of Grand Theft Auto in History."

Many people are not aware of how reliant the German army was on horse power, even at the beginning of the war.

This book appears to offer some interesting information of Germany's use of captured AFV's:

by Anthony Tucker-Jones

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I liked the quotes from your friend:


"Clippty Clop the Blitzkrieg Cometh" and "The Wehrmacht in WWII was the largest example of Grand Theft Auto in History."

Many people are not aware of how rel..."

Grrrr, another book for my to read collection.

I think that Cooper's book had information on that as well.

The German Army 1933-1945

It was a very insightful book.

That was one of my favourite books along with his book on the Luftwaffe, I read them both in the early 1980's!

by Matthew Cooper

Robert, you will be happy to hear that the author of my current book praises Colonel W. Koch in his work as G-2 with Patton's army. He states that he was:

" ... known as 'the spark plug of the Third Army' with 'the most penetrating brain in the United States Army'."

Interesting account highlighting how raw some of the US units were in the Ardennes area prior to the German offensive. This account refers to the US 106th Division:

"Some were hopelessly ill-prepared, as a 2nd Division captain recalled when he was asked by a Golden Lions officer for useful combat tips. Noting the Golden Lions GIs toted unloaded rifles, the green officer was told to get ammunition distributed to his men. 'But I don't have orders to distribute any ammunition' was the puzzled response. 'Well, I can tell you from recent experience the soldiers opposite have loaded weapons and know how to use them, whether or not they've been given an order to load,' the veteran replied."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Interesting account highlighting how raw some of the US units were in the Ardennes area prior to the German offensive. This account refers to the US 106th Division:

"Some were hopelessly ill-prepa..."

Well trained, poorly led...that is my general impression of the 106th. Very few of the Officers really had much of a clue what was going on. Wolves led by Sheep.

I have yet to get to "Snow and Steel," but a National Geographic "Book Talk" interview with the author leaves me wondering. First, he refers to Patton's "pearl-handled" pistols. I thought every military historian knew they were ivory, not pearl, and knew Patton's famous quote that only a pimp would carry pearl-handled pistols (or something like that).

More questionable, though, is his statement that "One of the key aspects of the battle is the speed with which he [Patton] can reorientate his Third Army, which is to the south of the Bulge, and get them to counterattack the Germans by moving north. To turn a whole army around on its axis by 90 degrees and move north in the middle of winter at almost no notice is almost unheard of.

But Patton achieves this within a couple of days—much to the amazement of the Germans and even more to the amazement of his fellow Allies. He says he will do it. Most people don't believe he can. Yet, my goodness me, he delivers, and delivers in spades."

Excuse my partiality, but it would be unconscionable if the author ignores the work of Oscar Koch, Patton's G-2, who convinced Patton well in advance that the German breakout was coming and led him to have plans for this move ready to put into play as soon as Ike issued the order. (And yes, if anyone still questions this I will refer them to my own book on Gen. Koch, which covers this issue in some detail.)

So please, someone who has read "Snow and Steel" let me know that an historian of Caddick-Adams' stature didn't miss this.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "That was one of my favourite books along with his book on the Luftwaffe, I read them both in the early 1980's!

by [author..."

Thanks, AR. for the Koch acknowledgement. The words cited come from Essame's "Patton: a Study in Command." And I might humbly note that Essame's evaluation of Koch came almost entirely from "G-2: Intelligence for Patton" on which I was privileged to collaborate with Oscar Koch. It was published in 1971 and is still in print.

Hi Robert, I am only up to page 295 (of 872 pages) of this book and so far the author appears to have done quite in-depth research on the Battle of the Bulge and has produced a well written and easy to read book covering a vast amount of detail and information. In regards to Koch who he rates very highly he states:

"In several reports beginning as early as 1 November, Koch at Third Army had highlighted the strength and general location of the Sixth Panzer Army, stating 'this force had a strong offensive capability anywhere in the US zone'."

The author also talks about Koch's map room which gave Patton a vast overlay not only of his positions, the positions or all other allied forces but also the Germans opposite which allowed him to plan movements far in advance of other allied HQ's.

You also have to take into account that the author is trying to write a single volume on this vast battlefield with some of the greatest and well known personalities from the Allied and German side but I think he has given Koch his well deserved due so far.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Robert, I am only up to page 295 (of 872 pages) of this book and so far the author appears to have done quite in-depth research on the Battle of the Bulge and has produced a well written and eas..."

Thanks, AR. I was hoping for such information and not intending to be critical. I'm really looking forward to this read!