SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I was trying to find which Fantasy book we're reading in October but I only found the Sci-fi choice. Am I blind or haven't we voted(/nominated) yet?

If I haven't become completely muddled Susanna, I believe October's Fantasy book is a theme-based one, which means Brooke will be putting together a poll so we can vote on a theme, and then we can nominate books. So you're right, we haven't voted yet!

(Wow, October's next month! It still feels like June to me)

I was hoping that some people would make some new fantasy theme suggestions in the Master Theme Suggestion thead, but maybe not enough people saw my request at the end of Brad's November nomination poll. If anyone has any ideas, head on over there and make some suggestions; otherwise, I'll create a poll after I get out of a meeting this afternoon.

And I hear ya, Shannon, I feel like just yesterday I was taking care of things in real life that had to happen on Sept 1, and here we are more than 2 weeks later already.

Okay, just checking :) Thanks, Shannon and Brooke!

http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/23...

Go vote! Brad's November Sci-Fi poll is also still available and only has 60-something voters so far.

Thanks for the fresh fantasy theme suggestions, and feel free to make more when you think of something good.

It would be a lot easier to find these polls if some of the older, out-of-date polls were removed or archived in some way.

Of course it would also help if GoodReads actually sorted them properly. I have it set to sort by "Newest" and whatever it is sorting by, it is certainly not date created.

I've looked a few times for a delete button, but I am either completely missing it or don't have the ability to, despite being a mod and/or person who created some of them. Any ideas?

@Brooke: You need to edit the poll. There is a "small" delete link at the bottom of the page (if I remember correctly). Or, if I've got that completely wrong, just do a Find on the page for the word "delete" and it should take you to the link.

Now that the theme has been decided, I'd like to nominate Wicked by Gregory Maguire. (The title wouldn't load for the hyperlink.)

Now that the theme has been decided, I'd like to nominate Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West by Gregory Maguire.

The Vampire Lestat by Anne Rice, though some may think of it as a sequel I think it works as a stand alone as well.

I nominate:
Grendel by John Gardner
The Traitor by Michael Cisco
Banewreaker by Jacqueline Carey
Darkness Weaves by Karl Edward Wagner
The House of the Stag by Kage Baker

I'll second Grendel by John Gardner.

I second Wicked The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. I loved this book the first time I read it.

If I can nominate as well as second, then I'd like to nominate Troll's Eye View A Book of Villainous Tales. It's a collection of short stories, though, if that matters.

I will second Darkness Weaves by Karl Edward Wagner. I just wiki'd (has that become a word yet???) him and he sounds like a really interesting writer.

I'll second Banewrecker.

Goobers, y'all must have had much less busy weekends than I did to go ahead and get this nomination process started!

As I said in the poll comments, I'll accept any nomination that contains a significant portion of the villain's POV, since I thought we had a very nice discussion about the two villains' chapters in our Tigana discussion, even though the book wasn't solely from their POV.

I'm not familiar with all of these books so far, so I'm relying on anyone who knows them to object if they don't feel like it fits. I'm going to go ahead and ask everyone if they agree Lestat from Anne Rice's world counts as a villain - I've read her vampire books multiple times and I don't know if I would consider Lestat a villain, even in Interview. I can be convinced otherwise if someone has an argument for including him.

For something a bit different, I'll nominate Soon I Will Be Invincible.
I read it last year and thought it was great!

I'd like to nominate Those Who Hunt the Night by Barbara Hambly.

One of the most wonderfully done historical urban fantasies, ever...with a superbly well drawn villain and a remarkably original heroine. This book should become a classic in its own right.

Jon wrote: "@Brooke: You need to edit the poll. There is a "small" delete link at the bottom of the page (if I remember correctly). Or, if I've got that completely wrong, just do a Find on the page for the ..."

Not there Jon. Must have changed? How did we delete old polls last time?? (or do they just expire gracefully based on their end dates?)

Shannon, I found it and deleted the polls relating to months we've already finished discussing. It WAS where Jon said it was, but it took a discerning eye to find it. It wasn't intuitive at all! I think in the past, if I remember correctly, you deleted them, but I could be wrong.

Strange, I didn't see a delete link at all, truly. But I thought I had done it in the past too... *shrug*

Brooke wrote: "Goobers, y'all must have had much less busy weekends than I did to go ahead and get this nomination process started!"

Just out of curiosity, what's going to be the cutoff for nominations?

Brooke wrote: I don't know if I would consider Lestat a villain, even in Interview.
I'd have to say that lesat is an "anti-hero", will that count for our theme?

George R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice series alternates the POV each chapter so it has several from the villian's POV. The first is A Game of Thrones. Since it isn't the entire novel, I'm not sure if we'd consider it but if so, then I'm nominating it.

Greyweather, let's have nominations run until the end of Wednesday. I'll send out a group broadcast to alert anyone who doesn't check their group tab for new posts.

Liz, the group already did A Game of Thrones, so we won't put that on the poll again.

Liz, I'd thought of that series too, but as Brooke says, the group already covered A Game of Thrones.

Also, the villain POVs don't really get going good until about the third book.

Speaking of Gregory Maguire - I'll throw in a nomination for Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Although Wicked is great, I actually thought Confessions was a superior book both in story and prose. (Just one humble opinion, of course...)

An absolute must on my list would be The Wasp Factory, by Iain Banks. It tells the story of a boy-psychopath who lives on an island with his dad, seperated from England and in secret. This boy, Frank, creates his own religion, his own wars, and his own method of determining fate--a machine called The Wasp Factory.

The Word for World is Forest, by Ursula K. Le Guin has significant portions in the villain's point of view if I'm remembering rightly. I know it starts out that way and for a long while I thought he was the protagonist.

I second Banewreaker by Jacqueline Corey.

I wonder if Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny would qualify? It's not exactly villain, but it is not exactly hero...

I'll second Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, I also liked it much better, in a different way, than Wicked.

I'll second Dana's suggestion of Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. A lot of Maguire's books falter a little toward the end, but that one doesn't.
I'll also second Soon I Will Be Invincible; I didn't love it but it was very clever.

Jakub wrote: "I wonder if Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny would qualify? It's not exactly villain, but it is not exactly hero..."

I second this choice

Dana wrote: "Speaking of Gregory Maguire - I'll throw in a nomination for Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister. Although Wicked is great, I actually thought Confessions was a superior book both in st..."

I'll second Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister by Gregory Maguire. I didn't like Wicked when I reread it as an adult, but never did get around to reading Confessions.

A Company of Stars. Christopher Stasheff. Book One of Starship Troupers.

I am reading Best Served Cold by Joe Abercombie in which the main character/ hero is a woman who has gathered a gang together to assassinate the people who killed her brother and wounded her. Although not a technical villian, there is no question that what she is doing is not good.

So I will nominate the book:

Best Served Cold by Joe Abercombie
Wizard's First Rule by Terry Goodkind (which contains a particularly nasty villian named I think Darken Ruhl)
Lord Foul's Bane by Stephen Donaldson (which main character Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever does not believe in the fantasy world he is in, and is a leper and is evil and good all at once)
The golden compass by Philip Pullman (which again has a great villian)

At risk of being totally self-promoting, I'm going to suggest reading something about witches as we enter the Halloween season. My novel NOVEMBER IN SALEM : The Bargain of Witches,(by L.C. Russell) is set in Salem, Massachusetts just before the ancient Celtic holiday of "Hollantide." It is a YA fantasy full of gnomes, elves, some really nasty witches and of course a dark, diabolical connoisseur of souls. I would be eternally greatful for some honest reviews and feedback. Thanks LC :)

Jeffrey wrote: "I am reading Best Served Cold by Joe Abercombie in which the main character/ hero is a woman who has gathered a gang together to assassinate the people who killed her brother and wounded her. Alth..."

I will second Best Served Cold.

I was ready to nominate or second Grendel, so I guess I'll third it here. Great book, told from the perspective of the monster in the Beowulf legend.

Jeffrey, I don't know the Joe Abercrombie book, but I don't think any of the other three are really "from the villain's point of view." Wizard's First Rule is from the good guys' POV, Thomas Covenant is a reluctant hero and does a bad thing or too, but he's not the villain--Lord Foul is, and although it's been years since I read it, I don't think we ever get his POV. And the same is true of The Golden Compass--all these have interesting villains, perhaps, and we might even see why they don't see themselves as villains, but that's not the same thing as being from their POV.

Just my $.02.

I'd be tempted to nominate To Reign in Hell by Steven Brust, which is *kind of* a re-telling of Paradise Lost from Satan's perspective. At the same time, I'm not entirely sure it fits, in that Satan is really the hero of the story--that is to say, it's tough to see him as a villain in this version of the story. If things went down *this* way, then Satan *is* the hero of the story! I compare that to Grendel, where--although we may sympathize with--we still see him as doing villainous things.

But what the heck, I'll nominate To Reign in Hell and others can weed it out if so inclined.

I was attracted to Jimmy the Hand who wast introduced in the 1st book of Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga, 1st trilogy: Magician.

Also attractive is Kvothe, villain and hero of -Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind Day 1 of The Kingkiller Chronicle.

And, the incomparable tales of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, the 1st being Swords and Deviltry by Fritz Leiber

Then there is Livak from Juliet McKenna's First Tale of Einarinn, The Thief's Gamble

And, while I am at it, I'll 2nd The Word for World is Forest , if only because it is on my To Be Read list and Ursula Le Guin never disappoints. [Though I consider her works SF, I would not quibble)

I probably won't have time until this evening to make a list of everything that's been nominated and seconded so far, but keep giving your ideas and commenting on whether or not you think the nominations fit the theme!

I think that books like Grendel, Wicked, and from the sounds of it, To Reign In Hell will fit. So one category of accepted books is any book showing the POV of a villian in another book (Wicked Witch, Satan, and Grendel were all villains, and their books are retellings of the original books). I think that, what John said is true - we'll probably view them as the hero of the story once we see it from their POV, but what makes them fit is the author's intention of showing their motivations as the villain.

I'd like to stay away from anti-heroes, since I think that starts to fall into another category. Obviously there isn't a perfect line between them, but I think the anti-hero tends to truimph in the end even if s/he's of disagreeable personality. Agree? Disagree?

I'm going to agree with John about The Golden Compass (I am less familiar with other suggestions) where even though the villain is a strong character, we don't spend much of the book understanding things through their eyes.

The Dracula Tape by Fred Saberhagen.
I know a great anthology called Villains Victorious as well.

Brooke wrote: I'd like to stay away from anti-heroes, since I think that starts to fall into another category.

Agreed.

I didn't particularly take Kvothe from The Name of the Wind as a villian. Actually, in the story, he talks about how and why he wanted to be a hero. Foreshadowing says things go wrong, and he's seen as a villain by some, but he's totally hero, maybe bordering on anti-hero, to me. *shrugs*

I'll second The House of the Stag by Kage Baker. I loved the way she played with fantasy tropes and her wise and witty sense of humor.

I just started Kay's The Summer Tree last night. Its kind of old, and probably already familiar to members of the group, but might be good to consider.The Summer Tree

I'll agree with Brooke that all the anti-heroes don't really fit this category. They're more their own category. I see Kvothe, Thomas Covenant, Jimmy the Hand, and Fafhrd & the Mouser as anti-heroes.

Wizard's First Rule does have some POV from Darken Rahl's perpective, but not a huge part of the book. Also, didn't this group already read that?

Also Brooke, by the definition of a villain from one book having the POV in the nominated book (which I like, btw), I think we can include Lestat. He's certainly heroic in his own way, but Louis cast him as a villain in Interview. And some of his victims would certainly call him villainous....