Fantasy Buddy Reads discussion

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Starting early. In the author foreword Sullivan says this one is his favorite of the series. :)

Chapter 1: The Storm
(view spoiler)[Oh no, poor Magda!

Well, my wish is granted, and straight off we get some insight into Gifford and Roan. Ahh, and here it finally mentions that Roan has an aversion to being touched.

Poor Brin, the anguish of being safe in a disaster, knowing those you love aren't. Or even the not knowing... fearing the worst. It's the absolute worst. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 4: Rapnagar
(view spoiler)[So you know how one of my first impressions of Nyphron included “honorable”?

“See, that’s the difference between you and me. While I tend to be pragmatic, you let idealism cloud your judgment. I can’t kill you…well, I could, but not without severe repercussions for breaking Ferrol’s Law…but I most certainly can kill Rapnagar. And believe me, he deserves it.”
“I don’t, and you made a vow!” the giant shouted.
“He’s right, you did,” Arion said.
Nyphron rolled his eyes. “No, I didn’t. I only promised."

Heh, well... let’s just say he’s definitely not Lawful Good. Chaotic Good perhaps? Still don’t know enough about him.

Yikes, that had to be traumatic. You'd think that Arion as a long-time tutor would know better than to put someone's life on the line as a first lesson. Most of teacher experience after all is just learning the all the different ways your students will potentially screw things up. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 5 Small Solutions
(view spoiler)[

“Moya,” Tekchin said, “you can stay, can’t you? I saved you a place on my lap.”
“There’s always plenty of room there, because there’s precious little else to get in the way,” the young woman replied.
Tekchin’s eyebrows shot up, and Sebek laughed so hard he fell off the broken log he’d been sitting on.

Hahaha, oh Moya, you don’t disappoint! Keep ‘em coming girl. ;P

I really feel for Persephone. She just lost her best friend Sarah, but can't properly grieve because of the burden of being chieftan.

No matter how many iterations I read, I always love watching characters discover and invent primitive technology. It’s like, “Wait! What was that spark? Did that come from that rock? Try that again!”

Ooh, Balgargarath~ How ominous~ And fun to say out loud too. Has a nice pirate flavor to it. *with best piratey scowl and facial contortions* “BalGHARgarath! Arrrgh!”

Woo! Imaly has got her blowtorch out and is not messing around. Vidar needs to sit down to treat those burns. (hide spoiler)]

I'll start in the next few days.

I started yesterday and ended up listening to the book 1.5x.

I loved the intro and how the story continues right after the first book.

Lots of good characters development but I actually did not enjoy this installment as much. I may be the outlier on that.

I gotta say my fav part for both books have been the little snippets of Brin's journal/chronicles.

Up to Ch 7. Magda !!!
Gosh, Gifford and Roan are so awkward with each other, but so sweet. And my heart hurts for them... And for Brin! I didn't realize she was 16 years old. I somehow thought she was in her early twenties... Also, it is interesting how the need to (view spoiler)[ change their place, the extreme circumstances are making them come up with new things for their people. Interesting that the Dwarfs have had all of those things like the wheel and the saw, but it never trickled into the Humans culture. And it seems Brin is coming up with an alphabet of a sort, and the Frey have had such for centuries... But I love that the young ladies are who is coming up with all this new stuff◉‿◉... (hide spoiler)]

Wow, you just raced right through that, Soo!

In the foreword Sullivan also pointed out that since the first book had a lot to do in terms of setup, this is the volume where he's able to really flesh out the characters, and supporting cast in particular. Good news for me, since characters carry the story as far as I'm concerned. But while character development is one thing, once I'm finished, I'd be interested to compare notes on the other aspects in this installment that fell flat for you.

@Bill See you in a few days!

The moment, when Roan couldn't understand why Gifford was crying and was trying to find the reason - priceless!

@Choko "Necessity is the Mother of Invention" after all. That's why NASA and space travel are behind the advent of so many cool new technologies. :)

Chapter 7: The Road to Tirre

Aw, Suri and Arion bonding is just the best thing. I like how the Cost of the Butterfly is recalled; the line in the first book felt vaguely prophetic. I love their dynamic. How Suri is able to see Arion, and understand her hurt. Arion is alone, not one of the humans, not part of the Galantians, and even her relationship with the Art is strained. Suri may have Minna, but she has lost Tura, and lost her woods. I’m so glad they found each other.

(view spoiler)[So Brin invents writing. I’m shutting off my historical linguistics brain on the origins of written language, and just going to try to enjoy this for what it is. It truly is a powerful idea, that that which is written never truly dies. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 8: Ride of the Stone God

(view spoiler)[Aw gosh, the moment that Cobb was hit by the cart, my thoughts immediately went to Roan, and how stricken she’d be. Gifford is so gallant, speaking up for her.

Ooh, I’m curious about the orphaned boy. I have the feeling we’ll be seeing more of him, and that he’ll prove significant. (hide spoiler)]

Suri and Arion are awesome by themselves, but they are perfection together. I don't know why, but I am getting the feeling that (view spoiler)[ we are probably going to lose Arion soon... Those headaches are not normal... I will be very sad if that happens... And all together, the way this world is, I have a feeling we will not be getting many or even any happily ever afters... I am preparing for my heart to be broken a lot ( ⚈̥̥̥̥̥́⌢⚈̥̥̥̥̥̀) (hide spoiler)]

Choko wrote: "Suri and Arion are awesome by themselves, but they are perfection together. I don't know why, but I am getting the feeling that [spoilers removed]"

Oh I really hope your feeling (view spoiler)[about Arion is wrong. I hadn't thought about it clearly, but I was hoping that the headaches were perhaps a symptom of some misalignment with the Art that would be revealed and cleared up. Although you're right, it is possible it could go the other way and she could leave us... just not yet. Her role is so vital. She's so powerful, that at the very least, she needs to complete her training with Suri. And... she is the closest thing to being an intermediary between the two peoples. I think she needs to have a confrontation with Lothian or Mawyndulë. Not that I doubt there will be plenty of tragedy before this series is finished. (hide spoiler)]

I am just speculating, a feeling... I love her otherwise and I love her ability to readjust her thinking and perceptions, instead of thinking herself perfect and sticking with her learned prejudices like even the young gifted Frey do... It seems to be hard for those considering themselves superior to be open to the worth of "lesser beings"..
Speaking of the Frey, I never trusted Nyphron, but I am in danger of starting to dislike him too... He is only working with the Humans because he needs numbers with weapons, but he hates them just as much as the rest of the uppity Frey... And he obviously sees them only as a means to an end, fodder for the battles... And his theory on Honer is very dodgy... I hope he gets better...

Oh yeah, I getcha. Speculate away! I get plenty of those feelings and vague hunches as well.

Yeah, things like Nyhron's encounter (view spoiler)[with the giant Rapnagar, or the way that he allows his men to get drunk on beer instead of ordering them to be on best behavior and help the humans show he's not really this gracious benefactor or hero.

He spared Raithe's life, and they fought to save Dahl Rhen from the giants, but you're right, it's all a means to an end. (hide spoiler)]

Arion: I'd like answers about her headaches/etc too but that requires more magic mechanics. There's a bit more about that explained but it's still hand wavy to me.

On the character development front, that's this book in a nutshell for some characters. There are lots of points and moments that I enjoyed but the overall felt completely unrealistic to me.

I am sorry, Soo... I am enjoying it, but I am about one third in. Too unrealistic is ok with me in Fantasy and all of it subgenres. Not completely logical with accordance to the Fantasy world it pertains to, now that I have a problem with...

The couple of things that stand up to me as unlikely are the rash of discoveries coming pretty much from the same two girls, and the group of females taking off on a trip like that by themselves. But I am only up to the boat trip right now.

What the Frey did to Gifford.... Ghhhrrrr...!!! (-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩___-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩-̩̩̩)

It's unrealistic within story world frame. Each separate event makes sense but when I put them all together, it doesn't fit well for me. It made it seem more like a social/political statements were more important than the story. I will probably be the only one to feel that way about this installment.

Chapter 12: The Council of Tierre

Yeah, look at my face and see how surprised I am that all the old dudes (view spoiler)[decided to vote for themselves. Also, what was the point of dismissing to discuss a list of names, if they were only going to offer up a single one: themselves? These kids need to get their hands on Ranked Choice Voting. Brin, can you hurry up and invent that next? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 13: Crossing the Bridge

Every life is a journey filled with crossroads. And then there are the bridges, those truly frightening choices that span what always was, from what will forever be. Finding the courage, or stupidity, to cross such bridges changes everything. For me, the life-altering choice was a literal bridge, the one I followed Persephone across on the dock in Vernes.
—THE BOOK OF BRIN

Oof. I mean, she’s not wrong. Transitions are rough. Just pointing out though, that bridges DO go both ways. Unless you burn them, that is.

I’m feeling the anticipation build as the team is assembled. (view spoiler)[The three dwarves, Persephone, Arion, Suri and Minna, Brin, Moya, and Roan. Awwwww yeah! Hm, I’m a little skeptical of how quickly Moya could have possibly improved or developed muscle memory in just a few days, but… sure. Fine. Suspending disbelief. I can’t wait for little Roan’s mind to go haywire when she sees the Dherg city.

"We’ll do it together," she heard her friend Aria say once more.
Aw! Persephone!༼๑ɷ๑༽ (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I get all the feels too... And Soo is right, The Book of Brin snippets are awesome! Kind of reminds me that in the Drizzt books the snippets in the beginning of the characters are my favorite too... When done right, they can be very impactful - Malazan and The Way of Kings are also good examples...

Brin saying that the Dwarfs are horrible, that doesn't bode well for the future... I wonder if they do their part of the deal and the little assholes cheat them in the end...

Soo, I will see how I feel at the end and will update you ʘ‿ʘ

Choko wrote: "The couple of things that stand up to me as unlikely are the rash of discoveries coming pretty much from the same two girls."

Yes. This!

And yeah, I can't believe they did that to Gifford! Talk about just... ugh! How low and cowardly!

@Soo I guess we won't be able to tell until we finish the book how well all the pieces fit together for us. You're definitely valid in whatever takeaway you had though. Reading is such a subjective experience.

I agree with you both that the epigraphs are really nice preludes to each chapter.

Chapter 14: The Nightmare
(view spoiler)[Why yes, let’s have the boy who has been to the assembly all of twice, and slept through most of it, be the new sole representative! Experience doesn’t matter! This is unfair! Aiya, I’m getting right-wing mob PTSD reading this. It’s getting harder for me to push through the Mawyndulë scenes. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 15: Caric
Okay, I know I said I love seeing people discover primitive inventions, but for the love of Ferrol, tone it down! (view spoiler)[The wheel and axle, carts, pockets, crutches and prosthetics, the m*f*ing WRITTEN WORD(!)... and now archery too? (Let's not even go into the fact that the twirling mechanism behind a fire-starting bow is just... really far removed from the tension an archery one.) Even Jean M Auel, the most egregious offender, had the decency to spread out her character’s inventions across the span of 6 books. Just… pace yourself. Geeez. (hide spoiler)]

Ch. 14... Honestly, those Chapters with Mawyndulë are my least favorite... They, as you said, are just too close to our reality as of late. To think that this would have been unthinkable in our near political past... What does that say about our society? Nevermind, I know exactly what it is, I just hate it that as of late I see our reality mirrored more in the "bad guys" of fiction than the good... We have to all do better... I wish I had Persephone's optimism and faith... I know she is afraid, but she never lets that stop her from going forward with best intentions and uplifting spirit. I love that in her!

Someone remind me to post my thought/question about Mawyndule (is that the right spelling? LOL) brat when ya'll are done.

Haha!!! Yep, the inventions get to be a taaaaaad ridiculous! Ha-ha-ha-ha! And shall I remind you, J. M. Auel did it in 6 maaaaasssive books! We are in the second... But, to be fair, she is only making those discoveries for her small group of people. Most of those things have already been invented in other cultures and some times she just modifies them. And for Brin, despite them not understanding it, they already have examples of an actual alphabet and gliffs/runes... So they are only developing an existing concept. Still, it is veeeeeery unlikely! ^_________^

Soo, I will hold you to it (◔‿◔)

@Soo
Yes, we can all rant about the brat once we're done.

@Choko
Yeah, nowadays I've been trying to limit myself to more escapist books. The fluffier the better. The Wayfarers series was perfect for that. (Note to self: Ask for fluffy emotional competence porn book recs.)

Yeah, with Auel, another key thing was that it wasn't always the same people. Along the journey, encountering different tribes was an excuse to exhibit different technologies. The river people could explain how they manipulated wood to build boats, the tribe with an excess of bone but no wood could describe how they made the fire hot enough to use the bones as fuel, etc. They were logical local advances, tailored to their needs. So Roan making a crutch for Gifford makes sense. Just... I hope it calms down a bit for a while.

I am crying like a f#@*ing idiot!!! WTF??? I knew she couldn't do that, but I didn't see this coming! Actually, I saw it several minutes ahead, but I couldn't believe it! Now my heart is totally broken ! I can't... I just can't... ( ⚈̥̥̥̥̥́⌢⚈̥̥̥̥̥̀)( ⚈̥̥̥̥̥́⌢⚈̥̥̥̥̥̀)( ⚈̥̥̥̥̥́⌢⚈̥̥̥̥̥̀)

Choko wrote: "I am crying like a f#@*ing idiot!!! WTF??? I knew she couldn't do that, but I didn't see this coming! Actually, I saw it several minutes ahead, but I couldn't believe it! Now my heart is totally br..."

Yeah, that sucked and I didn't see it coming either.

I know what part you're at. Yup.

Oh goodness, I'm kind of terrified of what it going to come next...

Chapter 16: Long Gone
(view spoiler)[Tesh!? The boy’s name is TESH!? *squeals!* Ooh ohohohohoh!
*paces dramatically with pipe* Hm, now where oh where mightn’t we ‘ave heard THAT name before? Eh? Hmm~ It seems to be familiar, but what posssible connection or significance could TESH have to the story???

*tears up* I’m so excited you guys.
*reads the very next sentence* Aaaaaaand he’s a combat prodigy you guys. Well well well…

Nyphron shrugged again. “That’s what makes it such a good gamble. Even if she dies, we don’t lose anything of value.”

Nyphron you ass. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17: Gronbach

(view spoiler)[Oh gosh. Poor Suri! She’s legit having a panic attack, panting, trying to hold on and self-soothe, and the rest of them are totally oblivious. Unsurprisingly, Moya most of all. Yes Arion, keep talking to her.

“Suri, when you want to, you’ll move mountains.”
“I don’t want to move mountains,” Suri said, but inside her head the response was: But opening that stupid door would be nice.
“I know.” Perhaps it was a trick of the dim light, but Arion looked very sad then, as if she might cry. “You remind me of Fenelyus in that way.

(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 18: Choosing Swords

Persephone drew a loose hair away from Brin’s eyes. How many times have I watched Sarah do the same thing and think about the futility of the effort?
Brin shook her head, undoing Persephone’s work. The chieftain reached out and pushed the hair away again.

I just love the intimacy of that gesture. Persephone, as her mother’s best friend and constant presence, must be like something of an aunt. Auntie Persephone. Welcome and comfortable on her bed.

These intimate moments between the characters just fill me up. <3

Chapter 19: Neith

“What happened to the heroes?”
“Why do you think we call them heroes?”

Yep, the way the characters relate to each other makes the book for me... I love the care they have for each other! But boy, does this book challenge the boundaries of friendship! The memory of childhood summed it up for me... I finished the book, I couldn't stop. So now I need an emotional health break!

Chapter 21: Losing Face

So Persephone’s memory of Morton Whipple is one of my nightmares. (view spoiler)[There is this scene in one of the Ewok movies I watched as a kid, where the character touches the surface of a magic lake and is trapped under, hammering with his fist on the underside as he drowns. I think many kids who grew up with swimming pools or around water like I did, also know the terror of having an older kid hold your head under water, or trying to come up for air underneath a raft.*shudder* Drowning is such a visceral, familiar fear. (hide spoiler)]

And I’m having second thoughts about the Miralyith.”
“I can hear you,” Arion said from across the shelf.
Frost frowned. “Damn their ears.”

Haha, I just had some flashbacks to Riyria.

@Choko
お疲れ様でした。(Somewhat untranslatable everyday expression. Something like, "You must be tired," it's used whenever you finish a day's work or task together. It's like an acknowledging pat on the back to a comrade-in-arms.)

I'm almost loathe to read much further, and am trying to time when would be best to finish.

Do you guys ever do that? Try to coordinate the emotional fallout of a book? If I'm reading a good one, I don't want to be reading when I'm so tired that I start nodding off and can't do the last few pages justice. But too early in the day when I have things to do, and I may be useless afterwards for contemplation. And I wouldn't want to finish the same day as, let's say a movie date for example, which would interrupt my period of reflection with another storyline too soon.

Not that I don't spontaneously stay up to finished books all the time, but sometimes an element of planning is prudent.

My memory is terrible. I had a motorcycle accident in my late 20s and was in coma for a while. Then I had to relearn how to read and all kinds of other stuff... Long story short, I read a ton, and experience the books fully, but couple of years later I barely remember I have read them. I remember books I read before my accident better than those I read last year. I am saying this, because I have read one of the Riyria series, but I barely remember what happened in it. So I am afraid I am missing the connections between this and the Riyria series... But I love when you guys mention them:-)

I totally get the timing! For me is the desire to be alone and comfortable with the book in order to get through difficult or even really good parts... But if you need to sleep, go ahead and then don't read it until after your daily plans... It is not easy...

A lot happens. I guess we'll talk about it tomorrow? =D

Also, eh. I still think this book is unwieldy.

Totally agree that the character relationships are a huge chunk of what makes the story fun to read.

Choko, after I finish Rampage (a great YA thriller), I'm going to read one of these:
- T-Rexes & Tax Law #1 The one Iain recommended.
- Mama and the Alien Warrior #1

Both of those are on KU and short books. I can't see either of them being serious. LOL

Soo wrote: "Choko, after I finish Rampage (a great YA thriller), I'm going to read one of these:
- T-Rexes & Tax Law #1 The one Iain recommended.
- Mama and the Alien Warrior #..."

I already have T-Rex locked and loaded... Just say when and which thread we will discuss it on. I am ready for something absurd and light for sure:)))

Sweet! Let's use the Space Team thread. =)

I will be there!

Choko wrote: "My memory is terrible. I had a motorcycle accident in my late 20s and was in coma for a while. Then I had to relearn how to read and all kinds of other stuff... Long story short, I read a ton, and ..."

Oh gosh, I had no idea, Choko. But thank you for sharing. That must have been a frustrating struggle, learning how to read again. For what it's worth, I'll often forget books to the point that I'm not sure if I've read them or not. The other day I was clicking through one of those "how many have you read?" list challenges, and had to keep checking back to Goodreads, surprising myself a few times. "Waaait, I read that?"

Oh, and I was thinking of Hadrian often saying the same thing, in case the reference wasn't clear.

Hey, so I couldn't help myself. Had to pick it up again, racing through the last 1/3.

Chapter 27: Facing the Demon

So I'm guessing (view spoiler)[“The Three” = Trilos?
Some of this ancient folklore was referenced in Riyria. I’m having trouble remembering. The Father god who raped his daughter and needed to wander the earth doing penance and collecting feathers… something like that. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 28: Death by Steps

(view spoiler)[T_T (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 29: The Aftermath

Oh what an interesting turn of events. (view spoiler)[Makareta who was so timid at first becomes the primary instigator. Mawyndule has a noble streak, and fears for his father’s life and his own. And Imaly, Imaly is the deceitful one who starts the war, using Nyphron and the Rhrunes as scapegoats. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 31: The Keenig
(view spoiler)[

Then Moya jerked her head at Udgar and silently mouthed the word puppy.
If she weren’t so genuinely concerned, Persephone might have laughed.

Hahahaha, she may not have, but I sure did! It's so funny, because you know that to everyone else there her claim sounds 100% to be bluff and swagger. But it's so true. In comparison, he's a floppy-eared puppy who can't faze her a bit. (hide spoiler)]


Yasss! Well, I finished and am highly satisfied. The last third of the book especially really hooked me. Certain aspects, like the fact that (view spoiler)[Persephone would become keenig, (hide spoiler)] I predicted as a foregone conclusion from the beginning… but it didn’t make it at all less enjoyable to see it come to pass.

I admit I was blindsided by (view spoiler)[Minna’s fate though. I totally got sucked into the impending tragedy of Arion sacrificing herself. It didn’t even fully kick in for me until the dragon started raising its hackles like a wolf. Totally threw me. (Before I realized it Minna however, the moment I read, "dragon," I instantly guessed it had to be GLYARGHBRYWYNNN (er, you know who I mean) from Riyria.

And yeah. Nyphron really turned into a huge asshole in this one. Outright villain. (hide spoiler)]

Sorry Bill and Brian for racing ahead. Looking forward to your reactions. Narilka, feel free to come out of the shadows and chime in as well. :)

I loved the ending too!!! But I know I get overly emotional, and if the book really speaks to me, I take it very personally. It mostly happens in long books or series, when we are given time to get to care about the characters...

About Persephone, it was inevitable, but the road there was worth reading about:-)

All the women in this book were so compelling, regardless of which side of the conflict they were on. And yes, Imaly is one of those really compelling characters:-) Looking forward to seeing what happens with her.

Overall, I was very satisfied with the story, apart from some heavy-handed, extremely implausible contagion of discoveries by only two people in the space of a month... LOL... And as painful as the tragedies are, I have been prepared. I remember what the Riyria world was like, if not any of details, and let's face it, we are not in for any happy endings. I expect a really good, but really heartbreaking tale by the time we get to the end... I hope I am wrong, but in my heart I know I am not...

Do you think Trilos was that dude? Hmmm... (view spoiler)[ I was left with the impression that "that dude" was supposed to be doing good deeds, and Trilos seems to be kind of on the Dark side here... But we never really know which side is which, do we?

About Mawyndulë, I think the worst that ever happened to him is losing his grandma and Arion! They are both so powerful, but also looking out for all the tribes, not just the Gifted. He could have had a chance under Arion's to tutelage, because he is so easily lead by others. There is a beta personality, who really needs a strong alpha to follow... Add to that him being only 24 years old, which in a race that lives close to three thousand years is like a newborn, and he is a perfect pawn for manipulation. He will lech to whoever knows how to stroke his ego and he can feel safe with... Very sad, really... Doesn't make him any less on an ass though... (hide spoiler)]

There is so much more, but I will check back in when the others start commenting (+_+)

Melissa, not being able to read was the worst thing that I have ever experienced! It took me over a year to relearn and be able to maintain meaning and memory. I felt like a useless, marginal being! I am forever grateful to the speech therapists, who didn't give up on me! They gave me the World back. I never take it for granted again. Brain injuries suck... But I am here and this was just another thing I had to go through in order to appreciate everything I have:-) Thank you for the nice thoughts (+_+)

Yeah, I can't imagine all the related difficulties, having to rely on others for so much, and all the everyday tasks you couldn't do, in addition to reading. Although different, I have had multiple issues with my eyes over the years, and had periods where I've had to have eye patches, unable to see. Not having the comfort of books during recovery is one of the most frustrating parts.

I'm glad you had great help in healing, Choko!

Melissa, it took me a long time to get used to audiobooks but they have been a wonderful addition to my book world.

If I had a fear, I don't really but if I had to pick one, I would miss having eyesight the most. Though, I'd hate to lose any of my senses.

Back to book, I like the characters but I found the way the story was plotted in this one as rather weak. There's a world of varied people (sexes) and abilities. Cool. I find it really odd that (view spoiler)[only women stumbled/lucked out/turned out to be the key figures in making the necessary changes. The rate of discovery by the girls/women are too fast and hard to believe. It comes across as social commentary that's forced vs a cool combination of varied factors coming together. (hide spoiler)]

Mawyndulë: (view spoiler)[I want to like this character but it's hard to see him as a solid person when there's contrasting info on him. Like, he's basically not even a teen when it comes to his race. Going by that, it's silly to want him to be more curious, not be pushed around & manipulated easily and not act like a spoiled brat. The more I learn about his background, the easier it is to excuse his behavior & actions but it still doesn't really flesh out his character. He feels like a prop that's used to show certain parts of the story.

The best part for him was when he kept the building from falling apart and the discussion that was held about him choosing to save people. That was nice but I felt like that was another forced plot point. This aspect of the mages doing magic in extreme manner with little drawback or how is very annoying. This youngling did not take well to his lessons on how to use magic and he can suddenly keep a whole building from falling apart. Okkkkkkkkkay. (hide spoiler)]

Seph: (view spoiler)[I knew she would end up as the ruler but I didn't like how the path was laid for her to get there. It was too women can do anything loaded. I mean, I believe this statement because I live it but big events happen due to the mix of many people. Not just women. (hide spoiler)]

Nyphron: (view spoiler)[I don't really see him as a bad guy. I think he's one of the more forward thinking of the Frey but he is what he has grown up to be: a warrior that has fought & won. I don't remember how old he is but he's old enough to have had a LOT of time to cement his personality and views. In spite of that, he doesn't see the world as his race as decided to paint the world to be and that's a big difference. Bottom line, all of the characters are making choices based on their own desires. Whether they are selfish or giving, the end results are going to be loaded as good and bad depending on how it impacts those around them. (hide spoiler)]

No, I don't think Trilos was him. (view spoiler)[I think Trilos was the Old One trapped in there who wrote the tablets. But because the stories seems to refer to gods, I was trying to remember the mythology. The Father-god Elan raped his daughter Muriel, the goddess of nature, and she is the one who bestows the feathers for good deeds.

My hunch is merely based off of the vague name similarity of Trilos and Three, and the fact that he seems impossibly old, like one of the old gods. Brin reads that the Old One/Three was killed by his brother, and that they were both in love with a "real" girl. So, I figure the two brothers were gods, and the girl a mortal. Maybe that's why Trilos is so obsessed with The Door. Because it leads to the afterlife, and he is immortal. If he loved a mortal, then she would be forever beyond his reach beyond the door. (hide spoiler)]

I totally agree about Mawyndulë. (view spoiler)[ Although 25 years old, he acts about half his age. Childish, defiant, convinced he knows all the answers, dismissive of authority figures. But also wanting to be a hero, to be admired, fantasizing of how he'll impress those around him. Wanting to be acknowledged. It really is a tragedy that his good stabilizing and positive influences left him so soon. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I admit I haven't made more than a couple attempts at audiobooks, but each time has frustrated me. I think I'm too hyper-aware of sound to process the content. Plus, when I read, I tend to stop a lot to process, or flick my eyes back to a previous passage, and sometimes loop through the same section. Audiobooks are too linear, and unforgiving in their steady pace. Of course, I'm glad they exist, and if I ever went blind would surely learn to adapt.

Haha, I think we all agree that the whole rate-of-invention part was a bit much. Like seriously... (view spoiler)[ I don't think anyone thinks it's realistic to be deciphering ancient tablets on the fly. (hide spoiler)] But I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, because narratively it lightens to pace.

I find it interesting repetitive and tiring how a few women existing and doing things together is read as social commentary. You're not alone, to be sure. Research on women in media shows how weighted our perception is, that even when underrepresented, female characters are perceived to be over-represented, in everything from dialogue to crowd scenes. Personally, I liked how each of the characters has their own strengths and weaknesses. They're not all Girl Power™ butt-kicking warrior-assassins, and each brought something unique to the table.

On the magic system and cost to the user, I think that's simply a matter of taste. I do love me an intricate magic system with checks and balances, but I also like the idea of chords, like some blend of musical harmonics with string theory. And the need for sources does mean that it's not limitless power. (view spoiler)[I think Minna's and Suri's sacrifice proves that. As for Mawyndulë, I got the impression that he didn't apply himself to his lessons because Arion was trying to get him to do things the hard way without magic. I got the sense that he could use it, but clumsily. So he might have the blunt force to hold up the building, but he wouldn't be able to repair the artwork inside like Arion did the shattered glass. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, that was my impression too... He just didn't see the point in doing things from the ground up, when he already could use the power at his fingertips. He equates the fact that he has power with being able to do whatever he wants, but apart from crude strong magic, he is not very good with details.

I see both sides on the ladies. MJS is being quite forceful with the "ladies in the lead" concept, but I don't mind it at all, because he is not making them into men haters or men killers. No, they are just the best people for this situation. And yes, he went too heavy on the inventions and ancient tablets decoding, and that is the most grading part about the book, but once I got past that, I was ok.

Soo, I love your perspective! You always see things differently than me and I love seeing all the ways people react to the same things.

Melissa, I tend to see most things a bit closer to your point of view, but the differences are so exciting!

I LOVE reading with you guys and this has been a true pleasure!!! I really hope we stick with it together to the last book! I can imagine what could happen in say one more book, but how can he make four more novels on this subject, this will be interesting. Thank you ladies for the great BR!