The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of December 15th - December 21st, we are reading Chapter Three of Landslide

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week Three - December 15th - December 21st
Chapter Three: Myths (pages 55-87)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on December 1st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up December 15th

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Jerome

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Also the citation thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

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All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

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Everyone,

For the week of December 15-21, we are reading Chapter 3 of Landslide

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week Three-December 15-21st
Chapter Three-Myths-pages 55 to 87

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Three: Myths

The gap between the Johnsons and the Kennedy family increases. Johnson struggles with the burden of taking up Kennedy’s mantle. Johnson feels as if Robert Kennedy, the Kennedys, and Kennedy loyalists are aligning against him.

The chapter begins with the solemn and sad account of John F. Kennedy's funeral procession.

Here is a link to some of the excerpts of that procession:

http://youtu.be/3KJQkn6zUvM

Discussion Questions:

What are the memories of those who remember JFK's funeral itself and/or for those who were too young who have only watched the accounts on television years later or on the computer - what were those things that stood out for you?

This thread is now open - please feel free to discuss anything in Chapter Three or in any of the sections of the book that came before (Chapters One, Two and the Prologue). This is a non spoiler thread.

All, the author Jonathan Darman is on the threads live as we speak.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

He is answering questions right now - please keep posting your questions as you read Landslide on the thread above for Jonathan.

The author is in the house.

Iconic and sad images
Cardinal Cushing to the right

Iconic and sad images

Iconic and sad images

Iconic and sad images

Rose Kennedy is behind Jackie

Their Wedding

I thought Chapter 3 was the best so far. I liked the way the author captured both the good and bad of the Kennedy years in a few pages - a lot of good ideas but, especially on domestic policy, very little action.

Questions for Mr. Darman or anyone else:

1. Do you think that if JFK had let LBJ loose, he could have done more on civil rights?

(by "let loose" I mean if he had recognized Johnson's mastery of the Senate and said - "I want this done, you do it").

2. Why do you think Kennedy did not do as above and do you think Kennedy was only mouthing words about civil rights?

Peter could you also place these questions on the Q&A thread for Jonathan? He is on right now.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

You can leave message 13 where it is here - just do a copy and paste for the Q&A and place the word Questions: in bold so as to save time for the author answering questions.

As far as number one - I am not sure but I think LBJ tried to give Kennedy some legislative advice as to how to get things moving in the Senate and the Kennedys' ignored him.

Bentley wrote: "As far as number one - I am not sure but I think LBJ tried to give Kennedy some legislative advice as to how to get things moving in the Senate and the Kennedys' ignored him."

I think so too and I think this is a major flaw in JFK. He had a guy who was arguably the greatest mover of legislation in history as his VP and he ignored him.

This might be a class thing or an elitist Boston/Harvard thing.

I think sadly it was a little bit of both - or just being from a hard headed big Irish family (smile) - but that is not one of JFK's brightest moments.

He kept trying to find things for LBJ to do (he could have made him a partner but he failed to do that) so he kept sending LBJ out of the country on foreign visits. I think as Vice President - LBJ had visited tons of countries as an ambassador for Kennedy.

This was on the Senate site:

Seeking to boost the vice president's spirits by giving him some public exposure, Kennedy sent Johnson on a string of foreign missions and goodwill tours. The elixir worked. Johnson attracted enthusiastic crowds and reveled in the press attention. Traveling in Pakistan in 1961, Johnson repeated a line that he often used while campaigning: "You-all come to Washington and see us sometime." To his surprise, an impoverished camel driver, Bashir Ahmed, took the invitation literally and set out for America. When the press mocked the story, Johnson arranged for the People-to-People program to pay the camel driver's costs, personally met him at the airport in New York and flew him to his Texas ranch, turning a potential joke into a public relations coup. On the negative side, Johnson's taste for hyperbole led him to proclaim South Vietnam's ill-fated President Ngo Dinh Diem to be the "Winston Churchill of Asia." These persistent journeys prompted The Reporter magazine to define the vice president as someone "who chases around continents in search of the duties of his office.

Here are some photos: (1961)



This story happened to be on a Pakistan site:

The Camel Driver and the Vice President
Friday, Oct. 27, 1961​

In the course of his tour of Asia last spring, Vice President Lyndon Johnson stopped on a Pakistani roadside to greet an impoverished, illiterate camel-cart driver who had a grin as wide as his handlebar mustache. A true Texan, the Vice President casually invited Bashir Ahmad to "come and see us, heah?" A Karachi columnist picked up the invitation and ran with it: "My, Bashir is certainly lucky. He'll stay at the Waldorf-Astoria." Almost before Johnson could say L.B.J., he realized that his invitation had been accepted, and he was stuck with it. Last week Bashir jetted into New York, speaking not a word of English and wearing shoes for the first time in his life.

Two Prayers to Allah. At the airport, Johnson was pale and apprehensive. But as Bashir materialized like a genie in the plane's door, he soon let his host know that there was nothing to dread. Wearing a jaunty karakul cap, a trimly tailored frock coat and a 500-watt smile, the camel driver accepted the onslaught of press and public with the nonchalance of a Mogul prince. Nervously, Johnson apologized for the chilly weather. Replied Bashir: "It is not the cold; it is the warmth of the people's hearts that matters." In response to L.B.J.'s welcoming speech, the camel driver responded in his native Urdu: "Since I had the honor and good fortune of meeting you. I prayed to Allah for two things: One, for the good health of the American Vice President, and two, that I be allowed to come to America. Allah, as you see, has fulfilled both wishes." Bashir recalled that when scoffers back home had predicted he would die of a heart attack in the excitement of his first jet ride, he had replied: "Then I will have died while going to see a friend."

Everywhere that Bashir went, his fluent comments flowed like a Rubaiyat. In Kansas City, Harry Truman was so flabbergasted that he referred to the camel driver as "His Excellency." At a barbecue on the L.B.J. ranch in Texas, Bashir remarked that his little daughter was his favorite child (only four of his eleven children are living) because "a daughter in a family is like spring among the seasons." Asked about his camel (who was reported to be pining away for him back home), Bashir thought a moment, then opined: "A camel is like a woman; you never know what it is going to do next."

Falling Petals. Said the camel driver to a newspaperwoman: "Each time you smile, petals fall out." Standing on the floor of the U.S. Senate, he observed: "When a lot of minds are applied to a problem, you get a better solution than when one mind is applied to a problem.'' In the Lincoln Memorial, gazing up at the statue of Abraham Lincoln, he said: "When a person sacrifices his life for his country, the country appreciates his services and makes a monument like this that will last forever." Wherever he went in his week's journey, from the plains of Texas to the office of President Kennedy, to the final, bewildering stopover in Manhattan. Bashir continued to drop his petals and to charm the natives. Finally, just as he was about to depart from the U.S. on his jet-propelled magic carpet ride back to Pakistan, Bashir got a telegram from Lyndon Johnson that moved him to tears. Wired L.B.J.: "Since your return to Pakistan takes you so close to Mecca, arrangements have been made through the People-to-People program for you to visit there." Cried Bashir Ahmad: "Allah be praised!"

So wise and well phrased were the utterances of the unlettered camel driver that some newsmen were skeptical. But State Department Interpreter Saeed Khan assured them that he was having a hard time matching his English translations with Bashir's Urdu eloquence. Many observers wondered if the camel driver had not been well coached for his journey; he tended to repeat his most popular lines in the different cities he visited. But what ever the explanation, there was no gainsaying that Bashir was a smash hit where-ever he went. And if a tentmaker could be a poet, many asked, why not a camel driver.

And I guess they got good natured JFK to greet him:



Another link with some great photos and insights:

https://thekarachikidblog.wordpress.c...

This is when they met (LBJ and Bashir)



The camel even looks happy (lol)

Bashir even met Truman:

This is a lovely story about what happened afterwards. Jackie went to Pakistan and I guess visited with Bashir in 1963 - and both Bashir and LBJ passed away in the 70's but the kindness of how Bashir was treated resonated on in that area of Pakistan and they remembered the story of Bashir and the Vice President. Maybe we should be trying to win the hearts of the people by these kind gestures. This is remembered in this blog below in 2014. Remarkable.

http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/199...


Jackie Kennedy visiting Pakistan in 1963 and having a photo session with Bashir.

Johnson's taste for hyperbole led him to proclaim South Vietnam's ill-fated President Ngo Dinh Diem to be the "Winston Churchill of Asia."

Ouch!

Yes, ouch. But who knows maybe it was lost in the translation. I highly doubt it was by the way - He seemed to do better with Bashir.

I do remember watching the JFK funeral proceedings on TV. We were all shocked by what had happened and mesmerized by what we saw. All the details seemed so perfect, especially that little salute that John-John gave.


I think that Darman's account of Jackie's desire to maximize her husband's place in history by borrowing elements from Lincoln's funeral and coming up with the Camelot analogy was sensitively handled. What a nightmare she had been through, holding her husband's head after part of his skull had been shot off! She represented her husband and country with such grace and dignity.

At the same time, Darman also points out that Kennedy's actual time in office was quite short and that he did not accomplish much legislatively. The chapter name, "Myths," is very telling.

I was born a year and a half after Kennedy was assassinated. I have seen plenty of pictures and videos of the assassination, days after, and the funeral. I am always amazed at how well Jackie stayed composed throughout. I would be a hot mess, to say the least. She was obviously sad and distraught, but well composed. I have always thought of Jackie as an independent woman who kept up a specific public image, something I suspect she learned to be/do with Jack being away a lot for Presidential business and I also expect that she put up quite a front knowing her husband had a few "dalliances".

I am sure she loved him very much, but I wonder if/how much she might have become disconnected with Jack despite public appearances and if that helped soften the blow or if she was just a very composed woman overall.

One thing that I found very interesting was that Jackie was basically the one that came up with the Camelot analogy. I've heard that analogy used all my life, but never thought about where that started.

Ann wrote: "I do remember watching the JFK funeral proceedings on TV. We were all shocked by what had happened and mesmerized by what we saw. All the details seemed so perfect, especially that little salute th..."

Yes Ann - myths that folks hold onto. Still he did have a powerful and emotional pull on the country and made it feel really good about itself for a time but then the rug was pulled out from underneath. She had a lot of class during this ordeal and after and focused on raising her two children.

Here Jackie is with Caroline:

Teri wrote: "I was born a year and a half after Kennedy was assassinated. I have seen plenty of pictures and videos of the assassination, days after, and the funeral. I am always amazed at how well Jackie sta..."

I have to agree Teri

Here is a photo of her children grown when she passed:



Some other photos:


Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg and John F. Kennedy Jr. at graveside ceremonies for Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis
Photo Credit: David Ake/AFP/Getty Images

THEY SAID …
“And then, during those four endless days in 1963, she held us together as a family and a country. In large part because of her, we could grieve and then go on. She lifted us up, and in the doubt and darkness, she gave her fellow citizens back their pride as Americans. She was then thirty-four years old…. She graced our history. And for those of us who knew and loved her — she graced our lives.”
— Senator Ted Kennedy

And what she said about her life:

SHE SAID …
“When you get written about a lot, you just think of it as a little cartoon that runs along the bottom of your life — but one that doesn't have much to do with your life…. The sensational pieces will continue to appear as long as there is a market for them. One's real life is lived on another private level.”


Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis
Photo Credit: David McGough/Time & Life Pictures/Getty Images

Source: Netplaces - Some other very good excepts - read in their entirety here - http://www.netplaces.com/jacqueline-k...

1. Do you think that if JFK had let LBJ loose, he could have done more on civil rights?

(by "let loose" I mean if he had recognized Johnson's mastery of the Senate and said - "I want this done, you do it").

Absolutely. It's a shame we didn't get to see that - Johnson's mastery of the Senate + JFK's oratory skills. They might have been pretty effective together. I suspect Bobby had a lot to do with LBJ's isolation, but JFK was also smart enough to know that if he did let Johnson loose, he'd probably not be a good solider. Meaning, he'd be looking to get credit for himself rather than POTUS.

Yes, Jason that is probably what he was thinking or what Bobby was thinking for his brother.

Not to derail a great thread that's going here about JFK funeral but just to comment on the beginning of chapter 3. I found myself absolutely falling off the couch when I read this part on page 58:

"But his Texan courtship rituals sometimes didn't translate. In one extravagant gesture early in Kennedy's term, he'd presented Jackie with two Hereford heifers and a pony named Tex."

Uh......what? I spit my vanilla porter all over the living room. It looks like he redeemed himself with a much better gift of an appointment book used by Abraham Lincoln.

Not everyone is from Texas President Johnson! (I'm trying to picture Jackie's facial expression).

I am not sure what she did with the heifers and Tex although they did have quite a menagerie of animals including Macaroni.

The famous Black Jack



Interesting story:

Even though Duda was Black Jack’s favorite, it was Arthur Carlson who would lead Black Jack in Kennedy’s funeral.

On Sunday, Nov. 24, he led Black Jack behind the caisson on the three-mile walk through the cemetery, over the Memorial Bridge, and through the city to Pennsylvania Avenue. The only trouble the unit had was pausing every so often for Black Jack to catch up. When the group reached the Treasury Building, the right rear wheel of the caisson became stuck in a gutter grate. The wheel was so stuck that the caisson dragged the grate a number of yards, which unnerved all the horses, including Black Jack.


When the unit finally arrived at the White House, Black Jack was nervous and wouldn’t stand still. He danced and fidgeted all the way to the Capitol. Because of protocol, Arthur wasn’t able to speak to the horse. After escorting Kennedy’s coffin to the Capitol Building, the caisson unit returned to the stables for the night.


On Monday, they headed back to the Capitol Building to escort Kennedy’s casket again. Black Jack was wild during the procession to the White House, and Arthur was afraid he was going to lose hold of him. At one point, Black Jack stomped down on Arthur’s toe so hard he was sure it was broken, but he couldn’t even bend down to rub it, or show any emotion at all due to the television cameras and witnesses.


Despite his antics, the media carried his image all over the world, and the beauty of his role in Kennedy’s funeral, as well as his display of spirit, touched the American people. Jacqueline Kennedy herself was one of many who became admirers of Black Jack.


On Nov. 27, Jacqueline informed the Secretary of the Army that she wanted to buy Black Jack when he was retired. Her request was acknowledged, and she later received Black Jack’s caparison, which included his saddle, bridle, saddle blanket, sword, boots and spurs.

Source: http://horseandman.com/people-and-pla...

Note:

Black Jack was the first choice in monumental funerals. Even though he was horribly misbehaved and always a challenge, he was everyone’s first request. Along with the over 1000 funerals he attended at Arlington, Black Jack had the honor of marching in the funerals of presidents John F. Kennedy, Herbert Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson, as well as that of General Douglas MacArthur.

This may count as my answer (at least in part) to the question posted above by Peter, "1. Do you think that if JFK had let LBJ loose, he could have done more on civil rights?"

I am reading on Kindle so do not know the page number (location 1372) but this quote struck me, "The Kennedy's friends, in turn, saw him [LBJ] as anything but 'hip,' and they loathed him for it."

Is it just me or are these people often acting more like a bunch of stuck up high school "A" list people than leaders of a nation? Had JFK and LBJ formed a team and been able to take the time to deepen their relationship if not form a friendship I believe much more could have been accomplished.

Another thing that surprised me was the rumors that were spread regarding LBJ being afraid to walk in the procession behind Mrs. Kennedy (location 1252) because of security threats. I would say that he did walk in the procession and, therefore, overcame his fears (if any) to do so which is the mark of a strong man and leader. Also, why would he not have fears this is only a couple of days after the assassination of JFK what if there is a deeper plan to carry out further attacks. It would have been short sighted to have a lack of concern regarding security at this point. In the face of any threat the person that tells you they are not scared is likely not being truthful with you.

Michael - I got the same impression - almost like a clique or a fraternity and LBJ was not invited. I think they forgot that as hip as Kennedy was - he needed old LBJ to win. Kennedy did not have the electoral votes to win without him.

I did not buy that part Michael because what threat is the former first lady. I should add that at that point in time - nobody would have been interested in hurting the first lady and by default LBJ - it would have most likely been the other way around.

I would think he might have problems being in the procession itself but not being afraid to walk behind Mrs. Kennedy. If that were true and security was still an issue - then no matter where he was walking he himself would have been a target as the next president. I think those concerns could have been very real and he would have been wise to have them. He did overcome his fears.

I just read this article this morning on CNN that concerns what we are discussing in this chapter. It's by Thomas Maier, the author of the recent book: When Lions Roar: The Churchills and The Kennedys.
It's about letters that the author came across from Jackie and others that discuss her grief and anguish and the time after Nov. 1963 and a little bit about her relationship with the Churchills:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/opinion...

by Thomas Maier

Very interesting John - thank you - I just read it. She certainly had a lot of inner turmoil and must have been beside herself with shock and with grief. I think she felt life as she knew it and wanted it had ended. Sad since she had still a wonderful life ahead of her - just not the same one she had which to her was Camelot. She obviously loved JFK and for her that was the love of her life.

Remember folks we are continuing to add to the glossary so that you can learn about folks who are mentioned in Landslide and find a good write-up, some great links and also some books about each of the topics, events, people, places, etc.

Here is the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Peter wrote: "Bentley wrote: "As far as number one - I am not sure but I think LBJ tried to give Kennedy some legislative advice as to how to get things moving in the Senate and the Kennedys' ignored him."

I th..."

Thanks for sharing the story about Bashir. I had not heard about him before.

JFK's death was years before I was born, but JFK Jr's salute is always a moving image.

It is because of the innocence of the little tot not fully comprehending what was to be in terms of his father not being there. Probably Caroline grasped a little bit more but they both were so young.

I had not either Brian until I read the LBJ Vice Presidential write up on the Senate site and decided to dig a little further - quite the story.

I like how Darman pointed out that Kennedy really didn't accomplish much while he was President, and yet, there is a belief by many that he was one of America's greatest Presidents. I wonder what Kennedy's legacy as President would have been had he lived.

Sera - it is hard to tell - he had become an idol due to his dashing good looks etc and he had the beautiful wife and beautiful children so it made America proud I think that they were in the White House - sort of like my President and his family are beautiful. I think sometimes the greatest presidents or those deemed to be the greatest presidents make folks feel better themselves or about themselves or about the country or proud. And the Kennedys' made a lot of folks proud and interested in everything they did and even the photos made Americans awe struck probably even to this very day. So what I am saying is that folks might have still given him high marks just for being who he was; of course the historians would have still seen through the glitter and the glam.

I also do not want to take away anything from JFK either for he was extremely bright, extremely well read, excellent at analytics and steady during emergencies - you only have to listen to the Cuban crisis tapes to figure that out and he made the right decision in an incredibly dangerous situation. And he may have pulled us out of the Vietnam War - it is hard to tell - everything we could potentially discuss would be what ifs and would be hypothetical or unknowable.

Who knows? America never got the chance to find out and that is what is really saddest of all.

Michael wrote: "This may count as my answer (at least in part) to the question posted above by Peter, "1. Do you think that if JFK had let LBJ loose, he could have done more on civil rights?"

I am reading on Kind..."

I've gotten the impression so far after 3 chapters that Bobby Kennedy didn't have many friends at all. Stevenson, Rusk, LBJ....all loathed by Bobby Kennedy. Just goes to show you that even within a party there's as much hatred as one would expect to find across the aisle.

Think Ted Cruz and Mitch McConnell for a modern day analogy?

Justin wrote: "Michael wrote: "This may count as my answer (at least in part) to the question posted above by Peter, "1. Do you think that if JFK had let LBJ loose, he could have done more on civil rights?"

I am..."

Excellent observation Justin - but Bobby did have a loving family and a close inner large circle.

Justin wrote: "Sera wrote: "I like how Darman pointed out that Kennedy really didn't accomplish much while he was President, and yet, there is a belief by many that he was one of America's greatest Presidents. I..."

Thank you Justin - but you are right once the president gets to the second term - there is a saying that fish and visitors stink after three days and that could be changed for presidents - fish and presidents stink after 6 years! (of course FDR defied that premise)

I agree about Clinton and for his presidential skills he is still way up there and has done better out of office too.

Sorry Justin - I have to remove your last post - self promotion.

Justin stated:

I found myself wondering the same thing as I read that part. Bentley did a good job of answering but as we've seen in the last 3 decades, any president who lasts 8 years has their moments that sink their approval numbers by quite a bit.

History has judged Reagan and Clinton fairly well. Clinton would have been way up there if not for the Lewinsky scandal. We will see how history judges "W" and Obama but we will have to wait a while to see.

.... the left was getting antsy with JFK. This seems to happen a lot with a newly elected President, whether Dem or GOP. Their core base thinks the POTUS is going to come right in and go immediately to the far left (or right). It just doesn't happen. People forget about a system of checks and balances that keeps this from happening (generally). We don't elect Kings.

Good comments all. Yes, Justin, we have a small snapshot of RFK in time from this book, and it probably was the worst of his life. It would take years for him to recover from the loss of his brother.

"There won't be a library if we don't get a second term. No one will give a damn." (page 72) JFK

Of course that really is the question of Kennedy's presidency. Would he have been remembered as a hero if he had not died.

My first experience with somber was the Kennedy funeral. The impression made upon me of Black Jack and the inverted books, the caisson, even the weather, all introduced me to experience of somber.

We were fortunate enough to attend in person along the route to Arlington.

While I remember bits about the Eisenhower administration - especially our confrontations with the Soviets, my first recollections of the body politics working were the two conventions leading to '60 campaign, closely followed by JFK's funeral.

The conventions stand out for the carnival atmosphere, the breathlessness of a watershed development, the race of reporters as they got a whiff of something in the works from a state's delegation and the Cronkite working his team to hunt down the story; and my parents, lounging on our porch, watching it on a little black and white tv, a fan going, and them in their underwear because of the heat (we lived in the country), nursing Miller beers and smoking Camels.

The inverted books are strange for sure. So you were there Martin. Do you remember Black Jack as being as feisty as the films show - he was giving his handler a very hard time. Did you see Jackie and Lyndon or the children or did you see the President's carriage?

You made the images quite vivid - the black and white tv and the word little - those were the days when folks were grateful for what they had and appreciated it.

Smoking the camels certainly affected that generation.