The Obscure Reading Group discussion

Today we begin discussion of the second third of Hardy's book: Parts Third and Fourth. What happens in this section? In two words: a lot.

Have at it!

I'm going to Savannah this weekend for a book festival, so I may not have time to comment later. I finished these two sections earlier in the week and deliberately didn't go further so I wouldn't have to worry about spoilers.

I felt that Arabella completely redeemed herself in these sections with her honesty and earthiness. She was herself, without artifice or pretense, knew what would make her happy, and grabbed it. Sue, on the other hand, was a mass of contradictions, changed her mind on an hourly basis, was quite obviously sexually repressed, manipulative, and had no qualms about ruining the lives of the men she touched. I almost think she took pride in it. What an awful creature she has proven to be.

Look at the men she has ruined. Her father wants no more to do with her, ever, although as of yet we are given no reason for that. The young man before Jude who committed suicide because of her. The teacher, Phillotston, who loved her, married her, gave her permission to go live with Jude, lost his career because of that, then was willing to take her back anyway. And Jude himself, giving up on yet another dream, just to be with his beloved Sue.

The men in this novel have no backbone, and I find myself wishing that at least Jude would wake up and see what's happening. As Phillotston's teacher friend so succinctly states it: "Sue is a capricious hussy". Amen to that.

Diane wrote: "I'm going to Savannah this weekend for a book festival, so I may not have time to comment later. I finished these two sections earlier in the week and deliberately didn't go further so I wouldn't h..."

Yes, I like Arabella , because she is flawed and there is no pretense. Unlike Sue, who vacillates in her emotions and subtlety manipulates Jude. Not a nice person at all in my opinion.

Jude on the other hand still is not sophisticated, but he is learning . I quite agree with Aunt Drusilla, the Frawley’s are not the marrying kind. At least not Jude and Sue.

I think Hardy is trying to rationalize his marriage and subsequent affair with a young woman many years his junior. Not so much the age difference but the living together without the contract of marriage. He is forward thinking . He has Jude stating that in future generations marriage won’t be necessary and children will be foregone. He states it will not matter ,so I think Hardy is voicing his views.

First I want to say how much I am enjoying this book. Thank you again for inviting me to join this reading as I have really enjoyed the discussion and it has really given me a lot of insight into what I am reading and made the book all that more enjoyable.

I agree with most everything that is being said about Arabella and Sue. Arabella, despite her lack of pretense, is still not an appealing individual to me and Carol, your statements about Sue are spot on. I have just found myself becoming more and more irritated by her inability to make any kind of decision and extreme sensitivity to what, to my mind, are trivial matters.

I agree that Jude is slowly coming around but, nonetheless, is still under the spell of two people who are basically manipulating his life to meet their own personal needs.

Phillotson seems to be the vehicle for Hardy to present his, for that time, progressive views on marriage and male-female relationships, but, as you note Carol, Hardy seems to also be rationalizing his own moral shortcomings.

I am already into Part Fifth and am not stopping. I know a book is good when I look forward to reading it all day when I am at work.

I'm in agreement about Arabella. If most of us were contemporaries and lived in Jude's/Sue's/Arabella's social circles, we'd probably take a dim view of her. Hardy makes it easy, especially with that polygamy stunt. (But hey, when you live THAT far away, who's to say?)

Still, there's some complexity to the girl, and if she truly reviled Jude, she could do worse than she did in Parts 3/4 where, as Carol points out, some redemption comes out.

Like Darrin, I found myself often frustrated by Sue, too. I'll have to chase down the quote, but at one point Jude all but calls her a tease and a flirt who purposely plays men. I can see that line of argument. By both words and actions, she can be maddening at times.

So, Arabella is not all bad and Sue is not all good, which is as it should be. As for Jude, the guy is hopelessly run by his emotions. Sue plays him like a fiddle.

I sincerely hope all fares well for Little Father Time, Jude’s son by Arabella. With a name like that he will need all the confidence he can get.

Wait... Jude has a CHILD? In Parts 3/4 and I missed it???

These comments are riveting, and I wish I could play even a minor part in ‘em - but I’ve got really far behind in my reading, alas. Retirement seems to quash discipline. But the plot outline you folks present to my imagination really whets my appetite to finish this!

Ken wrote: "Wait... Jude has a CHILD? In Parts 3/4 and I missed it???"

Oops I thought it was in part four. Sorry. The kindle doesn’t separate the parts too well. Ah well I spoiled it.

I remember, also, Jude pointing out what a tease she was and thinking, "it's about time dude" but he still goes with her to the local magistrate to marry. They hem and haw and she finds some ridiculous reason why it is just not right to get married there and he buys into it again. Sheesh.

I think it is during Phillotson's defense of his job after letting Sue go to live with Jude that we see an important exposition of the author regarding his thoughts on the then, conservative moral standards regarding men and women and the institution of marriage. It struck me right away that this was the author promulgating his views.

S'OK, Carol. I can handle it.

Yes, Darrin. Hardy is definitely using his fiction to soap-box, as they verbify.

Here's a quote I marked where Sue tries to explain herself. It reads oddly in 2020, but that's no fault of Hardy's. Still, I think it is relevant to Sue's character:

"My life has been entirely shaped by what people call a peculiarity in me. I have no fear of men, as such, nor of their books. I have mixed with them---one or two of them particularly---almost as one of their own sex. I mean I have not felt about them as most women are taught to feel---to be on their guard against attacks on their virtue; for no average man---no man short of a sensual savage---will molest a woman by day or night, at home or abroad, unless she invites him. Until she says by a look 'Come on' he is always afraid to, and if you never say it, or look it, he never comes."

What jumps off the page are the words "no average man...will molest a woman...unless she invites him...by a look."

Modern-day readers must find this incredulous. Hell, maybe even some Victorian readers did.

Apparently Sue has lived a sheltered life and grown up around only Jude and Phillotson types. How she's avoided the wolves (as many then as now) is hard to say.

Still, Hardy gamely tries to impress upon us that this is a "new woman." It's just that he bends the suspension bridge of belief in doing so.

Well, this 'new woman' is a complex character, seemingly unconventional, and I had liked her at first, but the more Hardy developed her character, the less I liked her.

I share Diane and Carol's view that Sue is a manipulative woman who strikes me as being selfish and capricious. Jude calls her a flirt. Diane is right in observing how she ruined Phillotson's career and sidetracked Jude from his Christminster dreams. She also ruffed his religious sensibilities and convictions. Jude consigns this theology books to the flames, which signals the end of his aspirations. He admits "the human was more powerful in him than the Divine."

One of the most self-revealing passages had Sue confess to Jude (not once but twice): "But sometimes a woman's LOVE OF BEING LOVED gets the better of her conscience, and though she is agonized at the thought of treating a man cruelly, she encourages him to love her while she doesn't love him at all, Then, when she sees him suffering, her remorse sets in, and she does what she can to repair the wrong."

Jude has a taste of Sue's cruelty on the morning of her wedding when she takes his arm and walks down the nave of the church, and asks him about his wedding with Arabella. It is in bad taste. Jude sees her for once for what she really is: "Good God, Sue - don't be so awfully merciless!"

I wish Jude was less of a passion's slave.

I’m behind in my reading, but I just want to jump in here to say that I find it fascinating that while most of the period writers, and even Hardy in other novels, portray women as victims, in this book, a man is the victim. Yes?

I’m way behind too, Sandra, but how I LOVE this banter!

Yeah, I guess Jude’s the victim - much like I was when I read this at 18. Now that I’ve learned to stand tall, I MUST take time to finish it again - cause I’ve FORGOTTEN if he learns anything from it all!

More excellent comments!

I am glad to see Hardy rounding out Arabella a bit so we can respect and even like aspects of her character.

Sue is another story. On the one hand, I’m curious about how Hardy describes her as having lofty principles, as being unique, as not meaning to hurt anyone. Where exactly is she coming from? On the other it’s like, wait, I’ve heard this before. It’s just a man making excuses for a woman who is selfish and manipulates him, just because she is beautiful. :-)

I too wish Jude would grow a backbone. I’m finding myself liking Phillotson, who at least eventually shows the courage of his convictions.

I love all the points Hardy is making, about marriage and personalities and conventions and societal pressure.

There is much foreboding . I find it so because we don’t know what happens yet in parts 5 and 6 other than the last part , Hardy returns the story to Christminster for the finale .It seems ominous to me.

Christminster was where Jude had many aspirations. He also found his downfall there. No man of scholar and certainly no man with a mind of his own. He has been ruled by his emotions. How does this relate to Hardy’s later years.

Sue’s father disowned her and left her to make her own way. She learned not to trust any man with her emotions. I don’t think she cared as much for Jude as he did for her, because of being abandoned. In Victoria times women didn’t earn their own way, as we know. She was more capable when she worked, then when she clung to a man. Times stated women could not really be happy unless they had a husband and a home to take care of. I think Sue would have been better off.

Ken wrote: "S'OK, Carol. I can handle it.

Yes, Darrin. Hardy is definitely using his fiction to soap-box, as they verbify.

Here's a quote I marked where Sue tries to explain herself. It reads oddly in 2020, ..."

In many ways, Sue at this point parallels Jude in aspirations. They both grew up in a community far too parochial for them, only Jude cannot grasp that her home -- ideal to him -- is far from ideal to her. They are drawn together, indeed. They are kin as cousins, yes, but they are also searching for their destinies so reflect kindred spirits. They see others in similar manners (consider their shared respect for Phillotson). They cannot find a place where they themselves belong. Now only at the halfway mark, I wonder how the characters will play out in the book's concluding chapters. Perhaps that's why I do not have overly strong comments about the women from the first half -- I've anticipated many new discoveries in Jude's coming-full-circle.

Again, I return over and again to thoughts of how readers of the day perceived these characters. Long, long ago it seems -- 2004 - 2005 -- I received the serialized copies of Charles Dickens' _Hard Times_ in his ongoing London publication _Household Words: A Weekly Journal _. I enjoyed then and now again enjoy seeing the illustrations from the original newspapers in 1854. I keep wondering how people read each installment, discussed over readings (including some reading aloud for those illiterate), and then Dickens' own reactions. (I looked up the site again. Though it is currectly on hiatus, there are still resources here about Victorian Literature, specifically Dickens and Conan Doyle. http://dickens.stanford.edu/ specifically http://dickens.stanford.edu/archived/... ) .


How did Hardy react to the people around him? What were his reactions to their reading of his work? Perhaps I'll have time to look up some research, but I'm going to focus on the book itself.

I'm enjoying all of these comments!

Jan wrote: "Ken wrote: "S'OK, Carol. I can handle it.

Yes, Darrin. Hardy is definitely using his fiction to soap-box, as they verbify.

Here's a quote I marked where Sue tries to explain herself. It reads odd..."


Interesting questions Jan. I didn’t realize this was in serial form as well. I recently read Dicken’s Pickwick Papers. I would have loved to have read it in serial form. It has many character developments you find in his later novels.

Getting back to Hardy, Maybe Hardy will come full circle , because the book ends at Christminster.

Hi Everyone,
I’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments. There’s so much to talk about in this novel.

Sue Bridehead. What a name. The passage that Laysee quoted from jumped off the page for me, too. It seems the only way Sue knows of exerting any autonomy for her own life is by withholding sex. It makes me think of several other of Hardy’s female characters—Eustacia Vye, Bathsheba Everdene—who maintain some power when they keep men distant. Yet Sue’s the most unusual because she’s often described as passionless (Eustacia and Bathsheba certainly aren’t) so it’s never clear to me if she ever felt the normal range of passions at all.

Over and over it’s mentioned that none of the Fawleys were the “wrong breed for marriage.” Later, when Jude meets with Sue, newly married, he says that Sue is “not Mrs. Phillotson,” that “wifedom has not yet annihilated and digested you in its vast maw as an atom which has no further individuality.” Seems a bit more like Hardy talking there than merely Jude. Given the strictures about marriage and individuality at the time, I was taken by Phillotson’s generosity and open-mindedness. Gillingham, the loyal friend, serves as a ballast to Phillotson’s high-mindedness, so there’s all kinds of foreshadowing.

As little as Phillotson has, he does have one friend, something that neither Sue or Jude ever have had.

One of the things I’d like to go is go back and reread descriptions of each of these towns. Shaston is the town of “wandering vans, shows, shooting-galleries and other itinerant concerns, whose business lay largely at fairs and markets.” So, anything outside of convention may find a spot here. I really liked this passage:
As strange wild birds are seen assembled on some lofty promontory, meditatively pausing for longer flights, or to return by the course they followed thither, so here, in this cliff-town, stood in stultified silence the yellow and green caravans bearing names note local, as if surprised by a change in the landscape so violent as to hinder their further progress; and here they usually remained all the winter till they turned to seek again their old tracks in the following spring.”

Cathleen wrote: "Hi Everyone,
I’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments. There’s so much to talk about in this novel.

Sue Bridehead. What a name. The passage that Laysee quoted from jumped off the page for me, too..."

Ah, the symbolism throughout all of these characters is intriguing. Sue Bridehead does not want marriage, yet she wants family. Her attachment to being a mother is both surprising and warming, but she doesn't really commit. As you noted, the Fawleys are not really the marrying type. This must have caused quite a scandal throughout England when it was first created. I consider the considerable travels, and I realize these are restless people. Beyond that, though, the communities reflect the varying English people. "Over there" is not where the hopes, infidelities, promises, and disillusionment occur - instead, these various dramas occur among the different cities, towns, and communities.

For me, I stay steady with Jude. Were you the one who pointed out "saint of hopeless causes" in his name? Now THAT is definitely a point of symbolism.

Jan wrote: "Cathleen wrote: "Hi Everyone,
I’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments. There’s so much to talk about in this novel.

Sue Bridehead. What a name. The passage that Laysee quoted from jumped off the..."

Hi Jan, No, I didn’t raise that idea, but I remember reading that point and thinking it was spot-on.

I remember reading that Hardy was engaged to Emma Gifford for four years, and they were both considered “old” when they married. Hardy needed to earn more money, and Emma’s family thought he wasn’t of the right class. Theirs was a long marriage, but after the initial phase, not a very happy one. I’m thinking that certainly colored his view of marriage.

So Hardy is expressing his belief that the society he lives in is a Hopeless cause? Interesting.

Wow! What courage he had. . . . Yes, that would certainly color his view of marriage. In Victorian Times,

As I "travel through" this story, I consider the matches and mismatches among the characters. I applaud Hardy for exploring more of the inner thoughts of the characters, even the women whether we like them or not.

I revisited the dialogue between Sue and Arabella; they are both seeking stability. They both refer to "traps" of sorts when referencing marriage. Discussions about beatings, leaving relationships for their own benefit, and their regard for Jude almost as if he is there for them. Neither seems to love him for himself alone -- and that's what he wants. Also, those two women are quite honest about how they perceive each other. Sue perceives that Arabella is worn-down, not as lovely as Jude would want. Arabella perceives that Sue is interested only because a "threat" has come to her.

I'm also intrigued by Jude's acceptance of others. This extends to himself, too. He knows his "station" yet still aspires to rise above it. He witnesses how life has worn others down, yet he doesn't dismiss them. Judgments follow him throughout the story, especially as he forms his own little family.

I found this article about Hardy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/arc...

Carol wrote: "I sincerely hope all fares well for Little Father Time, Jude’s son by Arabella. With a name like that he will need all the confidence he can get."

I know. . . .
When he speaks, he has that tiny voice that seems to accept the cruelties of life. Walking through the streets to find his father was absolutely heartbreaking, and then his ongoing question, "Can I call you mother?" was haunting.

Carol wrote: "So Hardy is expressing his belief that the society he lives in is a Hopeless cause? Interesting."

Well, perhaps not all of society is hopeless. There ARE good people whom we can look to for compassionate decisions, but how many examples of inequality, violence, and neglect are prominent throughout this story? Jude, Sue, and Little Father Time witness these on the morning of the attempted second marriage. It didn't help that they learned the story of their shared ancestor who was hanged because of family problems. These characters show so many of the challenges common people faced.

I think Hardy is pointing out the problems and contradictions within society - perhaps accepting that these are part of the human experience. What do you think?

Kathleen wrote: "More excellent comments!

I am glad to see Hardy rounding out Arabella a bit so we can respect and even like aspects of her character.

Sue is another story. On the one hand, I’m curious about how..."

Hello,

By no means is this to you only, but I honestly like the depictions of the women's yearnings and misgivings (yes, contradictory) about marriage. I don't think either woman is perfect, yet I credit both of them for making decisions for their own best conduct. Going between my book and my Kindle (and various places as I work through my days), I do not have the exact quote, but there is reference to years in the future when people will have had new perspectives, seemingly more open ideas about marriage and equality.

Sue has quite a bit of fear, but she also has both an ideal belief about equality and a pragmatic attitude about choices she has had to cultivate throughout life.

I believe Jude is active. He does as much as he can to advance in a society where he is from a lower class, he has been neglected for a good part of his life, and he pursues relationships and studies -- studies being stymied because of class and background.

I see both of these characters as sympathetic -- not always likable, but sympathetic.

Kathleen, I am curious about the ending, too. Are there forces bigger than this little family can bear? They are individuals in a highly stratified society with a firm base in traditions and background (and their shared background is increasingly bleak.. . . . ). I am cheering on their individual "chances" to make it, but I think there may be quite a few warnings here. The foreshadowing is daunting!

Jan wrote: "Carol wrote: "So Hardy is expressing his belief that the society he lives in is a Hopeless cause? Interesting."

Well, perhaps not all of society is hopeless. There ARE good people whom we can look..."

I think the reason that I like Hardy so much is that he doesn’t sugarcoat anything, does he? Life is complex, and there’s no real guarantee that even if you work hard and “do the right thing,” that things will work out, and there are some things that are completely hidden to people, such as Jude, even when they aspire to higher things. He studies and studies—yet when he does get to Christminster, he realized both because of the abrupt note back and from his own gradual understanding—that he hadn’t studied the “right” things. He would have needed tutors and such to guide his learning. So, yes, that’s pretty bleak and completely contrary to the American ideal. And yet, there are always these moments of grace from ordinary people, even if they don’t say things exactly the right way or have all the right polish. Jude’s aunt is blunt, nor is she “nurturing,” but she does seem to have at her core a wisdom borne of experience. The same with her friend, the widow. Hardy inserts these “minor” characters, and I think they show that there’s some benevolence in the world.

Oh, how I appreciate this lively discussion.

There's something about the names Hardy chose for his characters. Like Cathleen said, "Sue Bridehead. What a name!'
Wonder if Hardy intended certain associations.

I'm being facetious (hahaha) but here goes:
Jude Fawley could well have been Jude 'Folly' (Arabella calls him a 'tender hearted fool.')
Arabella Donn because whatever Arabella has purposed in her mind gets 'done' even before she begins scheming.
Sue Bridehead is the one and only virginal bride Jude covets but she withholds her love owing perhaps to her 'epicene tenderness' or 'curious unconsciousness of gender.'
Christminster is the city of divine aspirations where Jude hopes to become a minister of Christ.

I'm just toying with the names. :-)

Cathleen wrote: "Jan wrote: "Carol wrote: "So Hardy is expressing his belief that the society he lives in is a Hopeless cause? Interesting."

Well, perhaps not all of society is hopeless. There ARE good people whom..."

Thank you for that insight, Cathleen. I find this reading to be quite rich. Also, I suspect I'd find the reading too simplistic if the characters were caricatures alone -- ah, but then again we might not be reading Hardy over 150 years later if he wrote only to please people.

Now, what choices will the characters now make?

Laysee wrote: "Oh, how I appreciate this lively discussion.

There's something about the names Hardy chose for his characters. Like Cathleen said, "Sue Bridehead. What a name!'
Wonder if Hardy intended certain ..."

These are great!
I hadn't considered some of these, yet they make quite a bit of sense. Fawley for "folly" and Donn for "done"? Those actually fit the characters. They add to the power of the personalities, too. We -- at least I -- grow frustrated along with Jude seeing how he works so hard to over and again come up disappointed and disillusioned. Similarly, I grimace when Arabella takes such firm strides (and rearranging/harming others' lives in the process) when getting things "done" for herself.

Diane wrote: "Look at the men she has ruined. Her father wants no more to do with her, ever, although as of yet we are given no reason for that. The young man before Jude who committed suicide because of her. Th..."

True. . . .
Sue very well may have been the first "femme fatale," one of our modern women. The men are drawn to her, yes, and they want to take care of her. She doesn't fit expectations in Victorian society -- she even says so often -- yet they want to make her "fit" their expectations as well. Still, I find her to be intriguing. In setting her own standards (or trying to do so), is she similar to men?

Sandra wrote: "I’m behind in my reading, but I just want to jump in here to say that I find it fascinating that while most of the period writers, and even Hardy in other novels, portray women as victims, in this ..."

I don't know enough to comment about victims, but I like the turn of social roles. Even in our comments as readers, we want the men to be stronger -- with focus on Jude especially -- and we grow frustrated when the women do not tame their wills for the men. I'm just as guilty as everyone wanting the forceful, enterprising men and amicable, accommodating women. I have these same social expectations embedded in me. Honestly, I'm aware of those expectations in my hopes for the ending of this novel.

Why do we -- okay I -- always want "happily ever after" for a closing line?

Laysee wrote: "Well, this 'new woman' is a complex character, seemingly unconventional, and I had liked her at first, but the more Hardy developed her character, the less I liked her.

I share Diane and Carol's ..."

She is downright honest at every turn, and I like your term "passion's slave" for Jude. By this point in the story, we realize he just doesn't fit the sordidness of his world. Jude's redemption (if that's what comes) will happen if he can separate from the passion. He prided himself on his learning early in life, aspires to a life of learning (even now), and -- I hope -- will become that poet in the end -- Hardy's "last of the optimists."

Jan wrote: "By no means is this to you only, but I honestly like the depictions of the women's yearnings and misgivings (yes, contradictory) about marriage..."

I am enjoying this too! I just keep thinking about Hardy himself, because the way he depicts these characters is fascinating. And I think in particular, the way he has created Sue is full of interesting and possibly telling contradictions.

And I don't think we're wanting the women to tame their wills for the men at all. Ideally, they would all be strong and thus be able to protect themselves from the ending they seem to be reeling towards. :-) But they are not and therein lies the story. I still have so much empathy for Jude. I have known someone much like him, and my heart breaks a little as I read.

I dont think i undsrstood Sue at all until i read these excellent posts. I was unconsciously irritated with her, kind of living with Jude in his headspace i guess, and his flirt comment momentarily broke down the facade, but i too was manipulated by her!

Cathleen wrote: "And yet, there are always these moments of grace from ordinary people, even if they don’t say things exactly the right way or have all the right polish...."

I love this point, Cathleen--so true!

Kathleen wrote: "Jan wrote: "By no means is this to you only, but I honestly like the depictions of the women's yearnings and misgivings (yes, contradictory) about marriage..."

I am enjoying this too! I just keep ..."

Yes, excellent points . . . . Keep enjoying the story!
I'm already preparing for a busy week of work, so I might not be able to participate a great deal. I'll continue reading, yes, and as often as I can I'll follow the discussions here.

Ken wrote: "I'm in agreement about Arabella. If most of us were contemporaries and lived in Jude's/Sue's/Arabella's social circles, we'd probably take a dim view of her. Hardy makes it easy, especially with th..."

I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I've upset my sequence. Sue does, indeed, play upon Jude's emotions. Look at how she compares him to the tragic, heroic figures he would aspire to be. In doing so, she beguiles and flatters him. Don Quijote is a man of learning who sees an ideal world others cannot imagine, and St. Stephen can look to heaven in times of distress. This is the irony, though. Don Quijote goes mad, and his vision of the world is truly foolish -- who mentioned "folly" and "Fawley" in an earlier post? St. Stephen can look to a vision of heaven, but that comes at the point of his death. These references appeal to a sense of martyrdom. What a sad fat for sensitive Jude. . . .

Ken wrote: "Wait... Jude has a CHILD? In Parts 3/4 and I missed it???"

Please continue to be gentle with us. . . . .

I went back and discovered I also added to spoilers. I'm going to edit those!

Here's a link to a glossary for Hardy's work. It's the only place that I found chimmer.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf...

Kathleen wrote: "Jan wrote: "By no means is this to you only, but I honestly like the depictions of the women's yearnings and misgivings (yes, contradictory) about marriage..."

I am enjoying this too! I just keep ..."

Hardy’s mother and grandmother were strong women. He was used to being around them.

Thank you for that information. Though it is not always applicable, an author's background often reflects something about his or her writing.

Lori wrote: "Here's a link to a glossary for Hardy's work. It's the only place that I found chimmer.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf..."

Thank you!

I know I missed some of my spoilers when I revised and edited over these past 30 minutes. Please pardon those! I haven't read to the end of the novel, but now I am honestly nervous for Jude. Honestly, I'm not sure that I want to see the end of this journey he is taking.

Also, I realized that I had mistaken even the title of this group. I had misread, "Finding 'CHARITY'. . . ." instead of "Finding Clarity in Jude the Obscure" for this group. As I have followed my posts, I continually revisit the question of how readers originally reacted to this. Perhaps that's why I mistakenly ascribed "CHARITY" to these discoveries. Today's world -- at least as I'm experiencing it -- carries many of the same lessons.

1) How many times do we find stories of people trying to rise above their lives (or merely survive) yet find themselves cut short after having traveled (literally or metaphorically) so far? Like Jude experiences, they can even see their dreams so near yet so far away.

2) What are my rights as a woman? What are my perceptions of other women, and do I accord them the same rights/respect if we disagree?

3) Ah, religion -- the great love/hate relationship of my life. Almost all of my education was in Catholic schools, Jesuit schools at that. Even in 2020, I'm seeing great chasms in religion, and I anticipate these will become wider and deeper in the near future. What are the lessons we should carry forward from religion? Do we apply those lessons in how we treat each other, do we apply those lessons in what we expect from others' behaviors? What is the spirit vs. the law of religion?

4) Returning to "charity" and "clarity," how can I make sense of this chaotic world? To what extent do I extend kindness and forgiveness? What do I let go of from my past in order to move on to my wishes for the future? (both personally and socially)

Well, I now need to prepare for my new week of teaching.
Again, forgive my spoilers, my fellow readers. . . . .

How does Richard Phillotson relate to the Philistines? I am sure Hardy had something in mind about picking this name for Jude’s mentor/ nemesis. I haven’t worked out the correlation yet.

Maybe Phillotson is suppose to represent the Church of England. He is pious, moral, all the good that religion represents. Philistines are the enemy of the Israelites. Anyone have thought on this one?

I’m reading every comment. Thanks for all the critical thinking! I notice the men have dropped out of the dialogue; I hope not permanently. I like the in-depth analysis of the female characters. What interesting thoughts about names.

I don’t feel as frustrated with Jude as some of you. I feel that Hardy is reflecting how difficult society makes education and advancement for the working class. This is unfortunately still true. At what point are we able to rise above our family history?


Is marriage difficult for everyone? All classes? And why?

I am not dropping out of the dialogue. I just finished the book this morning so my thoughts have evolved quite a bit now that I am done and I am waiting to discuss more when we get to the final chapters.

Darrin wrote: "I am not dropping out of the dialogue. I just finished the book this morning so my thoughts have evolved quite a bit now that I am done and I am waiting to discuss more when we get to the final cha..."

Wise decision, I’m trying not to reveal too much either.

Sandra wrote: "I’m reading every comment. Thanks for all the critical thinking! I notice the men have dropped out of the dialogue; I hope not permanently. I like the in-depth analysis of the female characters. Wh..."

Here, Peter Quince!

I do think the range of opinions here on characters is reflective of the way Hardy wrote them---purposely, so they could not easily be bar-coded and shelved. (Wait, did they have bar codes in Victorian times?)

Anyway, Hardy himself pitches in for Sue through the POV of Jude, so I do believe he wants us to react to her kindly (if we feel for Jude), even if some readers confess to mixed feelings.

One paragraph I noted was Jude's reaction right after Sue mailed him a letter announcing her marriage to good old Phillotson. It gets interesting in the middle:

"Could it be possible that his announcement of his own marriage had pricked her on this, just as his visit to her when in liquor may have pricked her on to her engagement? To be sure, there seemed to exist these other and sufficient reasons, practical and social, for her decision; but Sue was not a very practical or calculating person; and he was compelled to think that a pique at having his secret sprung upon her had moved her to give way to Phillotson's probable representations, that the best course to prove how unfounded were the suspicions of the school authorities would be to marry him off-hand, as in fulfillment of an ordinary engagement. Sue had, in fact, been placed in an awkward corner. Poor Sue!"

What's always interesting is how some readers take a paragraph like this and read it as offering the author's view as much as the character's. They read that "Sue is not a very practical or calculating person," and buy low, hoping to sell high later.

What sucks us in is the first judgment: She's not practical. I feel many of us would agree hands down. But then, hiding behind that truth, comes "not calculating."

Hardy is having some fun here, really, because you can either accept Jude's view or you can pity Jude or you can be amazed at how ill-equipped he is to understand women (or certainly Sue).

Up to this point, I think Sue is indeed impractical, but I also think she is very calculating. Of course, those calculations don't always work out in her favor or as she plans, but she earns point for trying (or, as they say in math class, "She shows her work, whether the answer turns out correct or not.").