Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

This discussion is for anyone who is re-reading Swann's Way. There is no need to include 'spoiler alerts' as it will be assumed that anyone reading or posting here has read the whole novel.

(This can be deleted afterwards. Guys, I found out I will be travelling from January 10th on and I'm not sure how much reading/commenting I will be able to do after that for at least 10 days. We agreed to begin re-reading Combray on January 4th, but how would you feel starting instead on January 1st?)

That's fine with me Renato. I'm traveling now and won't be home to January 4th. But I've already read Combray several times and was just planning to respond to others comments.

That'll be fine with me Renato. Just to be clear, I'm only planning on reading Part One (Combray) - though, you never know I may get the urge to carry on.

Are you still planning on re-reading the whole thing?

Yes, I'll read Combray with you, then I'll go on my trip and when I return I'll resume reading. I plan to re-read every volume again, as long as it doesn't become a chore. If I feel there's no need to keep reading, I'll stop.

No sooner had I written 'Fin' under the final chapter than I received notification from my local bookstore that the copy of Patrick Alexander's 'Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time' had arrived -- just in time for Christmas! So here's the start of the next thrilling project. Count me in for Combray.
BTW, my wife and I are planning a trip to the WWI battlefields in NE France and Flanders for next May/June and I have decided that it is worth the detour to include a visit to Illiers/Combray as part of the trip. Any suggestions in this regard would be most welcome. I also intend confirming that Combray did NOT fall in the war zone, contrary to Gilberte's letter.

Ben wrote: "No sooner had I written 'Fin' under the final chapter than I received notification from my local bookstore that the copy of Patrick Alexander's 'Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time' had arrived --..."

Consider a visit to Cabourg, Trouville, and Honfleur, then spin down via Giverny to Chartes and Illiers-Combray.

http://www.cabourg.net/spip.php?page=...

http://www.cc-paysdecombray.fr/patrim...
http://www.cc-paysdecombray.fr/office...

Thanks for the useful links, Marcelita. We did in fact visit Cabourg, Giverny and Chartres during a previous trip. In the meantime, I noted that Alain de Botton ('How Proust can change your life' at pp 209-215) is less than enthusiastic about actually visiting Illiers-Combray. Your comment?

Ben wrote: "Thanks for the useful links, Marcelita. We did in fact visit Cabourg, Giverny and Chartres during a previous trip. In the meantime, I noted that Alain de Botton ('How Proust can change your life' at pp 209-215) is less than enthusiastic about actually visiting Illiers-Combray. Your comment?"


Ah, Chartres! I have visited several times, but never on a day when one is able to walk the labyrinth.

http://davidbrazzeal.com/2011/06/14/w...
So, I will need to return again.

And poor Giverny....with the one-way directional walking path and the re-built lower bridge. Time and tourists have depleted some of the charm of the water lilies, but thankfully the Japanese prints remain in exactly the their same places.

HOKUSAI Katsushika, The Great Wave at Kanagawa is to the left of the china chest, in the middle, as it has always been. (It is very difficult to find images of The Great Wave in the dining room.)

Now, to Illiers-Combray. I disagree with de Botton; I think you should do both. ;)

I believe everyone should visit, if for no other reason than to experience...feeling the flatness of the countryside and seeing the steeple in the distance. It may not be exactly the same, but that goosebump-impression I felt has stayed with me.

Combray at a distance, from a twenty-mile radius, as we used to see it from the railway when we arrived there in the week before Easter, was no more than a church epitomizing the town, representing it, speaking of it and for it to the horizon, and as one drew near, gathering close about its long, dark cloak, sheltering from the wind, on the open plain, as a shepherdess gathers her sheep, the woolly grey backs of its huddled houses, which the remains of its mediaeval ramparts enclosed, here and there, in an outline as scrupulously circular as that of a little town in a primitive painting. To live in, Combray was a trifle depressing, ... MP

And...to compare how time has changed the Pré Catelan garden:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6...


The only true error is believing that the bedroom, the staircase, garden, etc., in Illiers-Combray is "the real one," because, as you well know, Proust gathered many to create one.

Many of his memories took place in his Uncle Louis Weil's home in Auteuil.

You may see that the left side of the house, with its wonderful garden, was sold and replaced by a hideous apartment building.
http://www.terresdecrivains.com/marce...

Many years have passed since that night. The wall of the staircase up which I had watched the light of his candle gradually climb was long ago demolished. MP Swann's Way

(..."his" candle was referring to the narrator's father, but I also like to imagine that the author was also remembering his beloved uncle.)

Thanks Marcelita. Maybe I'll visit Illiers-Combray after all -- De Botton notwithstanding. And last time we did not get round to doing the labyrinth at Chartres, where one of my friends claims to have had a truly spiritual experience, so maybe we could kill 2 birds with one stone (what an awful expression!).
In the meantime, I've followed your earlier suggestion and enrolled for Bill Carter's excellent online course to assist in the exercise of re-reading ISOLT that lies ahead.

More than you may wish to know, but for the file....

Walking the Chartres labyrinth?
Horrors! Only Fridays, until the end of May 2015!
http://www.chartreslabyrinthtours.com

An aside for the numbers people:
http://www.johnjames.com.au/chartres-...

Visiting Illiers-Combray?

Tourist office (pictures):
http://www.cc-paysdecombray.fr/patrim...

The gurus of the flame:
http://marcelproust.pagesperso-orange...
http://marcelproust.pagesperso-orange...


On my list--
Try to visit one of the models for the Guermantes castle, the Château de Villebon, the favorite home of the Duc de Sully, a few miles from Illiers-Combray.

(Not to be confused with the real Guermantes chateau, which is now a convention center.
http://chateauform.fr/fr/chateauform/...
Proust just took the name, not the place.)


Château de Villebon


"Maximilien de Bethune Duc de Sully Baron de Rosny, the French statesman, died at Château de Villebon in 1641..."

Tour information:
"Individual visits without reservation from April 1 to September 30, the 1st and 3rd Sunday of the month"
http://translate.google.com/translate...

Fun--see Chateau de Villebon from the sky.

(Turn down the sound and just watch.)
http://cricrimary.over-blog.com/artic...

Below is a favorite video, in French. Fascinating, once inside.
A tour of the imagined "Château de Guermantes," the real Château de Villebon, by the owners--Amaury and Benedicta de Raudière.
Note:
**@4:15 The draw bridge demonstration.
@14:27 The ancient kitchen.
@15:57 Up the curved stairs to the goodies.
@25:40 A carved horn...
@26:46 Tapestries
**@30:00 Benedicta de Raudière describes the painted murals-depicting the surrounding countryside and related castles.
@35:45 Outside the chateau....family of deer.
@36:16 The chapel and tombs.
@39:47 The roof.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...
(French TV28)

Ben wrote: "In the meantime, I've followed your earlier suggestion and enrolled for Bill Carter's excellent online course to assist in the exercise of re-reading ISOLT that lies ahead.."

That is marvelous! Lucky you, having one of the world's experts as your guide.

Be sure to look at the webcams....the questions are listed so you will have an idea of the topics. Any question regarding music is wonderful. Also, if you see just two or three questions, then you know Bill was on an in-depth riff.

Sometimes, you can hear birds in the background. (The early lectures are in a different setting than later ones; the recent webcams are from his dining room.)

Bill's personality, along with his gracious manner and approachable intellect, is so endearing. I rarely miss a live webcam.

And...just think, you will be able to submit your own question(s) for the next one.
Start thinking. Oh, and even if a question has been asked before, Bill says that it's fine, as the answers always seem to be expanding. ;)

You will find that the articles/notes in the filing cabinets are indispensable. And the additional talks, after some of the lectures are insightful.

Even now, before going to one of my book groups, I will re-listen to the matching lecture. Naturally, there are always things I had missed or forgotten or wasn't ready to delved into the previous time. So, even a close reader benefits from listening to Bill's straightforward, but rich, lectures over and over again.

There is always one caveat....never to voice his insights as my own. I credit...and promote. ;)

What a great gift for the New Year!

Ben wrote: "Thanks Marcelita. Maybe I'll visit Illiers-Combray after all "

Alas, Illiers-Combray has changed, but you can still find the past.
Here is one of my favorite "vintage" documentaries on Illiers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYUXb...

So the question I've been asking myself all along - where was the narrator in the first pages of Swann's Way? - was already answered right there... I didn't remember it, and the day I re-read the beginning, it was only the first two pages...!

Oh, and by the way, it's funny how much faster I'm reading now compared to the first time where I struggled for half an hour on the first 3 pages in order to grasp what was being said.

I'm about to start...I'm just doing some warm-up exercises beforehand. :-)

If nothing else, Proust has certainly improved my reading style. I may be able to tackle Henry James again now.

I'm still traveing. I'l probably jump in at the weekend.

It's certainly interesting re-reading Part I of Combray. All the time-shifting that's going on was a bit confusing on the first read but less so on the second read.

The first-time reader wouldn't make much sense of the bit where the narrator remembers being at Mme St-Loup's house (Tansonville)...but for the re-reader this is exquisite; we're being rewarded for making it to the end of ISOLT.

When I first read Swann's Way I thought the narrator's grandmother was a bit of a stern character - with her bracing walks in the rain and her lack of frivolity. Of course as the narrative develops we realise that she cares deeply for the narrator. So it's interesting to come across this quote which supports the fact that she cared for the narrator:

Alas! I did not realise that my own lack of will-power, my delicate health, and the consequent uncertainty as to my future, weighed far more heavily on my grandmother's mind than any little dietary indiscretion by her husband...

I've been interested in 'firsts' in this re-reading, i.e. first mention of Charlus, Gilberte, Odette, hawthorns, Villeparisis etc. But it's the sound of the visitor's bell that really interests me.

Remember that in Time Regained the narrator said of the evening when as a child he waited for his kiss from his mother:

It was that evening, when my mother abdicated her authority, that marked the beginning, along with the slow death of my grandmother, of the decline of my will and of my health. Everything had been decided at the moment when, unable to bear the idea of waiting until the next day to set my lips on my mother's face, I had made my resolution, jumped out of bed, and gone, in my nightshirt, to stay by the window through which the moonlight came, until I heard M. Swann go. My parents having gone with him, I heard the garden gate open, the bell ring, the gate close again...

But what did he actually mean when with 'the beginning of the decline of his will'? Is it that it was then that he realised that he could manipulate those that loved him? In this section the narrator says:

...my parents gave me a far greater concession than I could ever have won as the reward of a good deed.

He's learning that being good and virtuous is not necessarily the best way of 'getting his way'.

I don't think it refers to him being able to manipulate people... I think he means it as he became aware that he couldn't control his nervous impulses - that he was oversensitive -, that he wouldn't have any will to achieve whatever it was he planned, cause he would always act impulsively, for he couldn't even convice himself to go on one evening without his mother's kiss and, even knowing he was risking a great deal, he went to meet his mother in the stairs. And the fact that his parents abdicated their authority only came as confirmation to his diagnosis.

"But in the system of education which they had given me faults were not classified in the same order as in that of other children, and I had been taught to place at the head of the list (doubtless because there was no other class of faults from which I needed to be more carefully protected) those in which I can now distinguish the common feature that one succumbs to them by yielding to a nervous impulse. But such words as these last had never been uttered in my hearing; no one had yet accounted for my temptations in a way which might have led me to believe that there was some excuse for my giving in to them, or that I was actually incapable of holding out against them."

Jonathan wrote: "I've been interested in 'firsts' in this re-reading, i.e. first mention of Charlus, Gilberte, Odette, hawthorns, Villeparisis etc."

I was also very attentive to these 'firsts' and, of course, I enjoyed a great deal that people thought that Odette was involved with Charlus and that for the grandmother, Jupien was "a most distinguished man, the finest she had ever seen." LOL!

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "I've been interested in 'firsts' in this re-reading, i.e. first mention of Charlus, Gilberte, Odette, hawthorns, Villeparisis etc."

I was also very attentive to these 'firsts' and..."

And the narrator's mother tries to get Swann to discuss his daughter with her and the narrator's great aunts know Vinteuil and Mme de Villeparsis is looked down on by the great aunts.

Jupien wasn't actually named though in this section was he? She likes him, as she also likes Villeparisis because they appear well-read whereas the great-aunts just like those that come from their same class.

Oh and the nephew of Mme de Villeparisis is 'so common!' - that must be the Duc de Guermantes?

Jonathan wrote: "Jupien wasn't actually named though in this section was he? She likes him, as she also likes Villeparisis because they appear well-read whereas the great-aunts just like those that come from their same class."

He wasn't, but I think it was Jupien because of the description of where his shop was. And yes, I think that was the Duc!

This isn't anything out of the ordinary, but I always find it amusing that at first reads (of any book, really) we (at least I) barely absorb those types of informations on characters that are (seemingly) just randomly mentioned... and now that we 'know' them this becomes so interesting.

Jonathan wrote: "The first-time reader wouldn't make much sense of the bit where the narrator remembers being at Mme St-Loup's house (Tansonville)...but for the re-reader this is exquisite; we're being rewarded for making it to the end of ISOLT."

Just dipping in...

A clue, "Mme. St-Loup." ;)

He sleeps in a Transonville bedroom, filled with nature.

...and, on the wall-paper in the bedrooms, here the roses from the garden, there the birds from the trees outside join the world—for it was old wall-paper on which every rose was so distinct that, had it been alive, you could have picked it. MP


This may be the Transonville bedroom where the Narrator is remembering, in his fitful sleep...so many years have passed, even centuries.

Back in my bedroom again, I thought sadly that I had not once been back to revisit Combray church, which seemed to be waiting for me amidst green foliage in a violet-tinted window. "Never mind,” I said to myself, “that can wait for another year, if I don’t die in the meanwhile,” seeing no other possible obstacle but my own death and not envisaging that of the church which must, as I supposed, endure for centuries after my death as it had for centuries before my birth. MP

Jonathan wrote: " But it's the sound of the visitor's bell that really interests me...."


Yes, me too. I try not to fall into the trap of believing those descriptions are of the actual two bells in Illiers, because they seem reversed.


The larger bell is rung from the outside of the gate, on the top right, while the smaller bell is on the inside.

"...we heard, from the far end of the garden, not the shrill and assertive alarm bell which assailed and deafened with its ferruginous, interminable, frozen sound any member of the household who set it off on entering without ringing,” but the double tinkle, timid, oval, golden, of the visitors’ bell, everyone would at once exclaim 'A visitor!'" MP (SW)


https://vimeo.com/73502366

"...the noise of my parents’ footsteps as they accompanied M. Swann to the door and the peal—resilient, ferruginous, interminable, fresh and shrill—of the bell on the garden gate which informed me that at last he had gone and that Mamma would presently come upstairs these sounds rang again in my ears, yes, unmistakably I heard these very sounds, situated though they were in a remote past." MP (TR)


http://lefoudeproust.fr/wp-content/up...

This larger bell doesn't seem it would automatically ring. Hummm.....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/5136674...

Renato wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Jupien wasn't actually named though in this section was he? She likes him, as she also likes Villeparisis because they appear well-read whereas the great-aunts just like those that..."

And the grandmother just assumes that the young lady with "the tailor" is his daughter; later we discover it is his niece.

"...and also for a repairing tailor and his daughter who kept a little shop in the courtyard..."

Close reading will teach us that we can't trust...everything we "read."
Peoples' perceptions, just like in our own lives, are genuine, but sometimes wrong.

It seems part of the thread..."You can't know another person."

Renato wrote: "I don't think it refers to him being able to manipulate people... I think he means it as he became aware that he couldn't control his nervous impulses - that he was oversensitive -, that he wouldn't

"'or that I was actually incapable of holding out against them.'"

Someone once said in a group,
"It's bad enough when you think you're crazy, but when your parents confirm it....you just give up!"

We kidded him,
"We don't think you're crazy."

Thanks Marcelita. Yes, the large bell sounds more like some sort of alarm bell. It must go off without the 'intruder' doing anything.

I started re-reading PartII of Combray today and loved the beginning section, the view of Combray from the railway, the 'dreary streets' etc. And then we're introduced to aunt Léonie talking away to herself in her room, 'having a rest', then all our favourites Legrandin, Françoise, Uncle Adolphe...and the Lady in Pink...

But, I think I'm going to stop my re-reading at this point as, for me, it's just much too soon to be re-reading this book, it's too much like déjà vu, like I've slipped back a year. I think I'll be better off re-reading short sections as and when I want to, or when they crop up in my supplementary reading.

I did notice that Mme Sazerat gets a lot of mentions in this early part of the book - the elusive Mme Sazerat!

Its been really great sharing the Proustian experience with you Jonathan. Sorry I haven't been available for the reread. Look forward to staying in touch on Goodreads.

Thanks Dave. Yes, it's been great reading ISOLT along with everyone; I think that ISOLT is definitely a book that is better read in a group.

We'll keep the group 'open' and we can think of it as still 'live' in that we can add new threads for any supplementary reading etc. I'm just going to start Proust's Way: A Field Guide to In Search of Lost Time and will probably add comments.

I finished the Combray section today. Really enjoyed re-reading it and I was surprised to find a lot of things that I didn't remember at all... like Legrandin having dinner alone with the narrator!

It was also great revisiting sections I did remember and already loved. I'll probably start Un amour de Swann tomorrow. I loved it last year and I know I'm gonna love it all over again as it deals with love and obsessive jealousy, which greatly amuses me, lol!

I also enjoyed reading about aunt Léonie... I just visited my grandmother and they're similar in so many things, lol, especially on that whole section that ends with this quote:

"In short, my aunt stipulated, at one and the same time, that whoever came to see her must approve of her way of life, commiserate with her in her sufferings, and assure her of an ultimate recovery."

Jonathan wrote: "But, I think I'm going to stop my re-reading at this point as, for me, it's just much too soon to be re-reading this book, it's too much like déjà vu, like I've slipped back a year. I think I'll be better off re-reading short sections as and when I want to, or when they crop up in my supplementary reading."

I totally understand what you mean. With other books, despite really wanting to re-read them, I decided it was too soon... with ISOLT, however, somehow I feel the need to re-read it now... go figure!

Also, we're so last year. There's already a new group por the 2015 read! https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Renato wrote: "I also enjoyed reading about aunt Léonie... I just visited my grandmother and they're similar in so many things, lol, especially on that whole section that ends with this quote:

"In short, my au..."

I think when I originally read this section I merged the two characters, the narrator's grandmother and aunt Léonie, but re-reading it I was able to distinguish each character as they are now like old acquaintances. :-)

Renato wrote: "I finished the Combray section today. Really enjoyed re-reading it and I was surprised to find a lot of things that I didn't remember at all... like Legrandin having dinner alone with the narrator!..."

I found that I was rushing through it just to get it read, so I thought that this was silly and decided to stop. I think it's just that I've got so many books that I want to read and being such a slow reader and with so little reading-time available due to life, work etc. that I thought I'd stop. I want to take a bit of a more scatter-gun approach and re-read little sections, almost at random; such as the library scene in Time Regained, the Intermittencies of the Heart, etc.

BTW Have you considered reading Jean Santeuil or the short stories?

It's good to see there's a new group. Have you joined?

I think that was wise of you to stop then... reading just to get it done is indeed a time you could use reading something new and that would enchant you.

I definitely want to read the short stories. When I read the Carter bio I searched briefly for Jean Santeuil but couldn't find it here in Brazil, so I'm gonna have to import it. I do want to read it as well! Do you?

I joined the new group but I'm not sure I'll participate at all... perhaps I'll be lurking here and there and posting if I feel the need. Marcelita is there, so they're already covered with all the info they need!

Renato wrote: "I think that was wise of you to stop then... reading just to get it done is indeed a time you could use reading something new and that would enchant you.

I definitely want to read the short storie..."

Yes, I want to read Jean Santeuil and the short stories - maybe this year. Maybe we can set up a group read if our schedules coincide? JS is even quite difficult to get in English, although I can get a copy from the library. Would you read it in English or French?

I'd definitely be up for a group read! But probably only in the second semester.. would that be ok with you?

I'll read JS in English. My French is still way to basic and I'm not confident at all with it... my dream to re-read ISOLT in French is decades away!

Renato wrote: "I'd definitely be up for a group read! But probably only in the second semester.. would that be ok with you?

I'll read JS in English. My French is still way to basic and I'm not confident at all w..."

That's ok. I'm not in a rush to read it, it's just logged in my brain as a possible read for this year. I wonder if Dave will be up for it as well???

After Proust's Way (though maybe not straight after) will be the Carter bio, which I'm looking forward to.

The new group for next year looks like it will be a good one. But I'm glad I'm here and not there.

Probably not on the JS reread Jonathan. I read a lot abut JS in other books and how Proust used and modified material there for Search. I've also read a good portion of Carter's bio. But if you guys read Proust books I'll probably tag along for the camaraderie, I feel quite a bond with my Proust bro's (and sis Marcelita).

No problem Dave. I'm not sure what I'll make of JS.

Jonathan wrote: "...then all our favourites Legrandin...
"...I think I'm going to stop my re-reading at this point .."

Jonathan, when I reflect back, your moderation was critical to the success of 2014. It was such a treat listening to your riffing-conversations with Renato and Dave. It was a rare bonding.

In your honor...Legrandin to the Narrator:

"Do you know, master booklover,” he asked me, “this line of Paul Desjardins?

'Now are the woods all black, but still the sky is blue.'

Isn’t that a fine rendering of a moment like this? Perhaps you have never read Paul Desjardins. Read him, my boy, read him; in these days he is converted, they tell me, into a preaching friar, but he used to have the most charming water-colour touch--

'Now are the woods all black, but still the sky is blue.'

May you always see a blue sky overhead, my young friend; and then, even when the time comes, as it has come for me now, when the woods are all black, when night is fast falling, you will be able to console yourself, as I do, by looking up at the sky.” Marcel Proust (Swann's Way)

Renato wrote: "I joined the new group but I'm not sure I'll participate at all... perhaps I'll be lurking here and there and posting if I feel the need. Marcelita is there, so they're already covered with all the info they need! ..."

Not sure how involved I will be...as I like to wait and discover the personalities.

I felt "2014" was like a gathering at a bar...with you all on the barstools, while I sat at a table, just close enough to overhear the repartee. Then, not having any self-control/will, I offered passing comments as I went to put more quarters into the machine.

Come on, you own the bar, Marcelita! :-)

Ha ha. Thanks Marcelita. Your 'passing comments' will keep me busy for a while yet. My post-ISOLT reading will include looking at all the interesting links you've posted throughout the year.

It was a shame that there weren't more members that were there from beginning to end but everyone's input was appreciated.

I hope the 2015 group succeeds. It looks like it's an annual event now, doesn't it?

oops! Dave has just fallen off his barstool.