SFF Readalongs led by Kitty G discussion

Discussion of chapter 4 & 5 of the book ONLY, no spoilers for any other parts of the book please!

So, the story is some what coming together now. Chapter 4 is a pretty busy chapter. But lets dive in. Tattersail and the Bridgebunners are on to Sorry. I'm wondering when they will really confront her? Paran was in some sort of after life, but was spared so Shadowthrone could follow him. I wondering how thats going to develop? Lassen wants rid of the Bridgebunners, I recall cause they where apart of the old guard with the other Emperor, but still dont understand all that? Dujeck said something about if they survive Darujhistan they can walk but Fiddler mentioned something about soldiers ready to rebel up. I found that very interesting? So Hairlock was being chased by hounds in a warren, so that I guess that led up to the end of the chapter with the shadow hound Gear. I wonder how Gear got out of the warren and onto them? After Paran saves the day they hear that spinning coin. So after all this spinning coin business so far in the book. I'm under the assumption that the god Uponn(Luck), is on there side? idk.. lol
Chapter 5
Now in Darujhistan, and totally off track from everything else so far, lol. Where introduced to Kruppe thats in a dream and walks to a Inn, where he has lunch and hears the spinning coin, but most of that scene went over my head. Interested to see everyone's response to that scene. But I did find the rest of the chapter with Crokus and Talo Krafar awesome and loved the action. I was really drawn into to that chase scene and with some good suspense. The mage hunters spoke an old language and where at war with Guild assassins? I'm really curious is how that plays into things and if our boy Crokus continues to survive.
All in all, I seem to understand most of the main story, but probably missing a lot of the small stuff.

I really liked chapter four, like Josh said things seem to be coming together more. The story seems more solid now. Loved the Gods meddling and Death's lackey not liking his own cackle. Towards the end of the chapter, with the conversations they'd had, I really felt I was starting to be able to keep everyone apart.

So then in chapter five we started over of course. The Kruppe part was cool, though I kept thinking it was going to connect to the previous chapters, like maybe the six were (some of) the Bridgeburners, but then he just went home. Still not sure if he was dreaming or not. I'm sure there's a hell of a lot that I missed in that scene.

The chase was exciting, really liked the pov changes throughout. Brought up even more questions, we'll see how that goes. Overall I'm enjoying the book, liking the Pratchett vibes I'm getting, but my reading speed is painfully slow because I keep getting stuck wanting to understand certain things.

Well, what an eventful few chapters! I'm really immersed in the story at this point as it is coming together nicely.

I'm not sure why, but I am intrigued by the very dark and mysterious House Shadow. I am looking forward to finding out more about the history of the House and why they have suddenly appeared after not being seen for a long time. Including why and what lead to the closure of the Warren of Shadow.

I like Tattersail’s character, and Whiskeyjack and Fiddler's conversation on the rooftop revealed a lot about her including how she is a talented and powerful sorceress as it is mentioned she turned down multiple offers for the title of High Mage. There's some good character building going on. I particularly like this quote from Whiskeyjack to Dujek which captures the fierce loyalty of the Bridgeburners to the Empire — "...While there's a hand on the sword, a single hand, the Bridgeburners won't back down. It settles on honour I guess".

I was a little upset to leave the story of the Bridgeburners and Tattersail behind in chapter five. I feared the story was going to start again and there would be another steep learning curve, however, this was not the case. After reading Erikson's opening description of Darujhistan, I was immediately drawn back into the story and, well, what followed was great stuff.

Okay so chapter 4 and 5 are actually quite different which is something I hadn't anticipated when dividing up the chapters for discussion and also Chap 4 is huge compared to 5 which is much shorter but more intense.

I think like everyone is saying I too really got into the story in this chapter and I loved the way that everything really seems to be flowing and weaving its way steadily together. So far I'm not having too much difficulty with understanding everything and whilst there are still plenty of questions buzzing around I feel like we will get the answers soonish and I look forward to that.

I really liked the mention of Fiddler's kind of premonitions and feelings which helped the Bridgeburners to escape the tunnels and once more informed them about the knife with blood on it (relating back to the end of chap 3). I thought that the way the two parties connected and the explanation of his magic being a help in their escape really clarified a few things and he's certainly a character I will watch as we go forward.

In terms of Tattersail she remains a very cool character and has to go through a few character development and backstory points in this chapter which really help her to feel believable and more fleshed out to me. I liked seeing the Tarrot card deck back in the game once more and the way it was laid out in a spiral was a really interesting thing (not sure if it's significant but it still made me ponder).
I also was intrigued by her backstory and the fact that she had previously abandoned people and disaster had struck so I assume that she has strong remorse and will see this through with the Bridgeburners now.
It certainly seems that she hates Tayschrenn and that there has always been a rivalry there (when we learn that she was offered his title many times and that they would be evenly matched) so I am looking forward to the inevitable confrontation there at some point in the future.
In terms of the fight that takes place and the weirdness which happens with Hairlock and the Hound and Paran I was gripped and really enjoying it.

So, Paran is again in the story (which I'm not sure if I like or not yet as we shall have to see how it affects things and how he's manipulated). Of course he visits Hood's Gate which I found really interesting to imagine and the scene with Oponn the Twin Jesters of Chance I thought that was very cool and having the Gods themselves appear as a part of the storyline is pretty awesome.
I was interested in the deal struck between Oponn and Hood's servant about someone close to Paran having to take his place passing through the Gate and dying as I don't think we know how that will be yet but it's a dark deal to make. I also really liked the dialogue between the Gods and the way that it all seems like a game and a manipluation for the sake of fun or mood rather than a life-threatening decision it is for Paran himself.
I also enjoyed seeing the Hounds and the King / Shadowthrone Ammanas as he met Paran outside of the Gate and questioned him about what had happened. The fact that he let Paran live and he's planning to shadow him is very interesting and I will certainly expect a lot of craziness to happen there.

Sorry is another character who is speculated over and talked about in Chap 4 and I really liked the fact that it didn't take the team of Bridgeburners ages to figure out that she's actually bad or the assassin who tried to kill Paran. I like the fact that this book tells a lot of stuff straight out and keeps a lot back as mysteries and whatever happens with Sorry I think will be a very gripping thing to watch unfold.

Overall I thought Chapter 4 was really an essential clarification chapter and brought loads of stuff together which I really enjoyed and I look forward to whenever we return to the Bridge burners crew. I am also interested in Gear the Hound and what he's going to do next. I thought it interesting too that there are 7 Hounds.

Chapter 5 then is a completely different feeling of writing and that mostly focuses on a Dream which Kruppe is having (really weird dream) and his premonition of what is going to happen to Darujhistan. I also feel like there was probably lots of foreboding stuff in that section which I probably didn't catch as some of you have said, but I thought that the way he talked aloud and was kind of semi-sane was really cool to see and gave a new dynamic to the story.
I think the other Beggars he meets are like hidden subconscious thoughts and premonitions or warnings and they're kind of his guides, it seems like he recognised them and enjoyed his time with them so I wonder if we'll see more from him in the future.

Then we move into Darujhistan and there we meet Crokus and Talo both of whom were interesting and the idea of a War of the Guilds sounds intense and orchestrated as if someone may have been meddling again! I liked the epic chase scene and the fact that everything seems to be in Talo's control as he sights Crokus, but of course we know where Crokus really was so there's clearly someone else and when the two Hunters come into play they were scary and ominous with their cool floaty powers.
I'm really looking forward to more from Darujhistan now as I thought that it may be confusing again but actually it's really sparked more of my interest and I just want to keep going. Also it was such a short chapter that I want to know what will happen next, who the new focus is and what's really going on in this city.
I wonder who is in control of the Hunters and who actually helped Crokus avoid them as there's clearly other forces at work here and I want to know who. The coin he finds seems to mean that it may be Oponn again? But maybe there's someone else meddling too and I wonder if so who.

I love the idea that the Malazan world is a gameboard for the Gods and that they seem to fight out their own personal vendettas and feuds on the world where all these people live and whose lives can be manipulated and altered to act as pawns. It's a really cool idea and I'm happy the Gods are already in the field playing which makes it really awesome to see and the magic is going to be wild I am sure.

Ahh! I'm so excited to get into this discussion.

I don't know about you guys, but I didn't really get into this book until we got to Darujhistan. I really enjoy cities in fantasy and stories that are revolving around cities and the people that live in them. Daruhjistan sounds so fascinating and since the whole plot seems to centre around the Empress getting it, I was just really excited for it. I loved the characters in that plot-line and I hope things converge in there somehow? I don't know. Cities in fantasy are often some of my favourite things.

Also: Kruppe. He's such a ridiculous character, in a good way. He always makes me laugh, but I felt like there's this extra layer of darkness there? I don't know. I'm interested to see where his storyline goes.

I also love the whole idea of Gods pitting the humans as pawns against each other. Oponn is such a fascinating character/entity for me. I want to learn more, and I'm struggling so much not to go look it up and spoil myself.

Here we have Tattersail, Whiskeyjack, Quick Ben, Kalam, and Fiddler discussing how to proceed with things especially with Hairlock. They discuss Tayshcrenn, what his possible motives may be, and if they are his alone, or if it goes up the ladder, possibly all the way to Laseen. But they also have to deal with Sorry, who they assume has a connection with High House Shadow. Some interesting beats are noted here about the nature of Shadow. Its long dormancy and now seeming obsession with the Malazan Empire following the deaths of the Emperor, Dancer, and the Empire's first Sword Dassem Ultor.

The case of Dassem Ultor's death is one worth consideration. What deal did he make with Hood that resulted in him becoming Knight of Death? And why did he eventually renounce this title and Hood, even swearing vengeance against the god? It is here that we learn that the gods may bestow roles and titles to mortals. What do these titles mean? What power can they give mortals?

Fiddler gets a bad feeling, revealing to Tattersail his naturally adept talents.

Paran's death is proven to be a shortlived thing due to the meddling of Oponn, showing us in this series that death does not always mean the end for a character. However, such escapings from Hood's Gate is never without consequence. Paran's life will now be traded with someone in his shadow.

"Hardly surprising, that Death has no taste." is a line that always cracked me up. Beyond Ammanas and Cotillion, this is the first case where we really get a sense of the direct involvement of the gods in the proceedings. Oponn creates uncertainty by bargaining for Ganoes' return to life, but also seeks to preserve secrecy of their involvement. Hood brokers the deal, and afterwards Shadowthrone appears, but allows Paran to live because he must at this point, in hopes of rooting out who opposes him.

Again there is another reading from Tattersail. I'd forgotten honestly that there were so many readings in this book, its been rather curious. And while many aspects of the readings make total sense now in retrospect with future knowledge, there are still portions of them I'm not entirely sure of their meaning. Aspects of them I think refer to much later books, but I can't be sure.

Fiddler and Whiskeyjack have a delightful conversation that continues to tell us more about their characters. Fiddler doesn't really fancy himself a fighter, while Whiskeyjack muses on soldiering and how its what he knows, and how he still can't do all he would like to keep his men alive. All the while they talk about Tattersail, and the strength of her will for what's to come. So we learn about all of them, through what they think of eachother and Tattersail. I loved the bit where Dujek gets onto Fiddler for losing his sword. I'll just go ahead and say, Fiddler is my favorite character in the whole series. The man is brilliant. And that's no easy comment, because there are plenty of fantastic characters.

And then there's that great response from Whiskeyjack when Dujek gives them permission to desert after Darujhistan.

"There's still a few Bridgeburners left. Fewer hands on the sword, but the sword's still sharp. It's not our style to make life easy for those who oppose us -- whoever they happen to be. Just to quietly walk away...Well that'd suit them, wouldn't it? While there's a hand on the sword, a single hand, the Bridgeburners won't back down. It settles on honor, I guess."

So without seeing any of the Bridgeburners in a single fight, we know just how ready they are to go toe to toe, and raise hell. Bridgeburners don't quit, and are not to be trifled with.

The encounter with Gear I just don't know what to say about, other than it was hair raising. The Hounds of Shadow actually always kind of bothered me, but I can't really mention why at this time. What's interesting about the end of this is that Paran's ability to hurt Gear shows that Oponn did something more to him that merely have him ressurected.

Beginning with book 2, we get a couple of poems from Fisher, get used to that name, he has several poems throughout the series.

I won't say much about Kruppe and his dream as he's just a character you have to experience. He is basically Erikson's method of circumventing the writing no no of purple prose. Kruppe often goes off the rails and it seems like he's talking about nothing most of the time, but the man's got things to say. He's always a treat.

Enter Darujhistan. This place is my favorite city in all of fantasy. I don't really know if I could say why. There isn't really anything super exceptional about it as opposed to say Mieville's New Croubzon. But the gas lamps of blue green flame that casts the city in that light, the inns, the people. As incredibly hard and brutal as Malazan is, I'd love to visit that city. It has such an atmosphere to it.

While I really love the sequence with Crokus and Talo and the assassins chasing Crokus across the rooftops, it does sort of expose one of the things Erikson was trying to achieve in his writing that wasn't exactly perfect.

Gardens of the Moon began as a screenplay. When it didn't get picked up, it transformed into a novel. And though I've never read this screenplay as I'm sure it doesn't exist in any public form, I think Erikson still tried to translate some of those screenplay beats here in novel form. In this chase sequence there are alot of POV back and forths between Crokus and Talo as well as other things. This would work in a movie, in a novel is sort of staggered and strange. I mean I still like it alot, but it still comes off as a little stilted to me. This sort of thing still happens all throughout the series, but Erikson gets waaaay better at it.

My biggest question up to this point is what is the reason for the god's interference? Like some have said, they might be just kind of playing a chess game with each other by using people. At first I thought maybe that the Malazan Empire is actually threatening them, so that is why they are involved. I'm not sure enow

With the different positions in the different houses of the Ascendants, the power of the magic, and the long vitality of the mages, I kind of am believing that the gods might actually just be really old mages and men themselves that achieved godhood.

I'm not a fan of Hairlock, I think the marionette thing is kind of lame.

The roof chase was awesome. The entire passage dealing with Crokus and Talo was written extremely well. I loved the description.

I like assassin and thief stuff =) Wars between guilds sounds exciting.

The unknown assailants of Crokus really intrigues me, especially the line that they have killed a god before. I was like ooooo, that means the gods can die, which makes me think more that they are just super people of some kind.

I know that everyone pretty much said what I had to say about Chapters 4 & 5. I do have a question though, when the Emperor was killed why did the warrens open up? Was it because the emperor died and did he have a deal with the gods?

I also want to know who helped the thief in chapter 5 and will he have some major part later on in the story.

Love this book!

Peggy wrote: "I do have a question though, when the Emperor was killed why did the warrens open up? Was it because the emperor died and did he have a deal with the gods? "

That is certainly a good question. We know that (or at least it is speculated on by the characters) the Warren of Shadow became active again after a millenia of dormancy following alot of big changes befalling the Malazan Empire. Namely the assassination of the Emperor, the death of the First Sword of the Empire Dassem Ultor, and the purging enacted by Laseen. We are told that the previous ruler of Shadow was possibly a Tiste Edur, who are likely cousins to the Tiste Andii. As for what all that means, well, that remains to be seen.

About 5 minutes after writing my piece about Paran in the Chapter 2/3 thread I felt foolish as it is quickly apparent Paran was not written out of the story.

As much as I love the Tattersail and Bridgeburners storylines, I was happy to go elsewhere for a chapter. It gives the reader a little room to breathe before diving back into their meaty story. Kruppe came off as this series Jar Jar Binks, though hopefully he will grow on me as time goes along. I very much enjoyed the pov exchange in chapter 5 and thought it added some intensity and overall perspective to the chase.

I too noticed the coin reference with Crokus. My guess is that any reference to a coin can indicate the meddling of Oponn.

Also I would like to point out how beautiful Erikson describes sex or things of sexual nature without being crass or immature. Erikson leaves nothing out of his characters description including their needs and desires without these scenes distracting the reader from the main plot.

I enjoy Evan's comments in the chapter threads. It is very apparent he loves and understands this series and can write a summary that points out aspects that will be key in the future without spoiling what is to come.

Alex wrote: "I enjoy Evan's comments in the chapter threads. It is very apparent he loves and understands this series and can write a summary that points out aspects that will be key in the future without spoiling what is to come"

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy them. I feel like they're sort of uneven at times, like I'll focus alot at the beginning of chapters and then have to skip through most of the rest because I've written too much and no way is anyone going to want to read all of this.

It's been fun going through the book again. I read the book some 2 years ago. So it's been exciting kind of rediscovering all these early bits present in the series.

And I never thought of Kruppe as Jar Jar-esque, that's hilarious.